"The CoS Files": 1: "CoS Higher-Ups Intimidating..." re Fascism

[SOD of the CoE!]

50041212 viii om Hail Satan!

reviewing initial files in the

2/27/2001 version of "The CoS Files"
-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-

preliminary note:

as I once more look through this material (I saw it when it
came out several years ago, receiving the entirety from Egan
of the First Church of Satan), the impression then received
that this was a squabble primarily of ONLINE PARTICIPANTS
from Tani&Co (now "Satanic Reds" apparently) and the CoS
once more becomes very clear to me; my memory is that I was
so thoroughly disgusted with how Tani Jantsang takes the
expressions of others out of context and misrepresents
them in order to then slam them, exaggerating the conflict
which *she* perceives online as "real" beyond the whisps
of threat and fancy actually extant so as to make them seem
different and more dramatic than they actually are that I
abandoned my original review partway through; I am only now
returning to this because some portion of what Tani&Co are
promoting appears to be founded in the real world; however,
this hasn't really changed my reaction to what I'm finding
within "The CoS Files" so far -- a persistent drama in
which the allegations are trumped up and adversaries
completely misrepresented and thoroughly confused (what
remains as I continue my exploration of the files is also
to determine if this effect is intentional or just some
kind of innocent but misguided personal exploit).


==================================================

excerpts from the files or its links en masse:

[start: Main Page "The CoS Files"]

apparently the top page was written (though not attributed

My personal involvement in the CoS was exclusively based on
the CoS' endorsement of the dark doctrines.....

<snip a heavy emphasis on these "dark doctrines">

down to...

CoS Higher-Ups Intimidating and Interfering
"...Andre Schlesinger and Lestat Ventrue were being AWFUL
to their own COS members in chat and otherwise...."

this appears to be the main contention from Tani, Tim, or
whoever is associated with Tani here (henceforeward to be
referred to as 'Tani&Co').

skipping down past fairly irrelevant and tedious private

"Peter Gilmore Scaring Timothy Stewart" --
Timorthy[sic] Stewart had originally solicited comments
on the subject of Satanism versus fascism. When he put
the findings on his Web site, Peter Gilmore found it
necessary to subject himself to reading and commenting
[sic] it. This document commenting on it [sic]. Stewart
immediately suffered selective amnesia, claiming that
Tani had made him alter his document....

no description is provided for how Tim/Stewart claimed
Tani 'made him' alter his document, and the description
above is plainly by Tani rather than Tim/Stewart.

=========
Article 1
=========

sub-page "This document commenting on it."

-------------------------------------------------------
this file contained transcription/translation errors,
such as '1' for apostrophes, and contained interposted
discussion from 2-3 passes without easily-understandable
time-orientation, plus much interposing text from Tani.
apparently edited by Tani&Co (her style in *italics*
interspersed), she has provided the 'last word' for us.

...these files document that the Council of Nine uses
other members of the CoS to do the dirty work of
harassing other people or organizations. When someone
complains about that person, his or her 'bosses' simply
reply that it is just that one person, and that his or
her behavior in no way reflects CoS policies.

in other words, as long as that person isn't acting on
behalf of the Church of Satan as one of its officials,
they shouldn't be treated as such. very reasonable on
the part of the Church of Satan and completely in
line with the Basic Rules of Protocol quoted below.

...now it is documented that they are acting on orders
or requests by the very people that later explain that
these people are acting on their own. Hence, while the
few people that behave as documented may be little
fish, they are asked to do so by the people that happen
to be in charge of the organization. In other words, it
goes to the top. It is the policy of the CoS to have
its members behave like that.

below I will watch for actual proof or admission of
such a contention. it probably focusses on the pep-talk
apparently given by HP Gilmore in bad jest regarding
his 'shock troops'. my guess, given the text below, that
it was all in internal poked humour, seems borne out here.

"Peter Gilmore (Peter = Peter Gilmore of the Church of
Satan, Administrator of the Corporation.)
Scaring Timothy Stewart (Stewart = Timothy Stewart
Epperhart, WolfAtHart, Citizen_Stewart.)"
Timothy Stewart [On Mon, 28 Aug 2000 08:26:36 GMT "Tim

within the text retained below, sometimes Tim (Stewart)
is obviously complaining about Tani to Tani (comparing her
expression to that of Michael Aquino wrt to the Church of
Satan and their fracture). since Jantsang/Marsh/Vad weren't
members, their assertions weren't considered as seriously
by the CoS. they're dealt with as a "Tani clique", which
they do seem to be, later becoming the "Satanic Reds"/SRs.

...Gilmore imagines there is a Tani clique out there
somewhere....

and he identifies its components and behaviour clearly,
which we will continue to call herein Tani&Co. comments
or queries by bobo in [square brackets] throughout.

Peter: [apparently conversing with Tani&Co] "...I was
told [by Tim?] that you present erroneous information
about the Church of Satan as if it were factual, and
that claim did require investigation. I found it to be
true...."
...
Peter: [to Tani&Co, re Tim's/Stewart's "survey" file] ...
"You are not an administrator of the Church of Satan, nor
are any of the people who responded to you (a number of
whom aren't even members of the Church of Satan). So,
you personally should have borne such facts in mind
when making the broad generalizations in your own
introduction and conclusion to the emails which you
received in response to your letter. But it is clear
that you did not. You assume that you have some
knowledge about the Church of Satan at large, its
membership and its practices, and this is completely
erroneous."

something which Tani tends to inform others,
interestingly. I'm sure I've reviewed this material
in just this way before at some time in the past.

Peter: "If indeed there is a 'fascist faction,' neither
you nor any of your respondents spent any time in
listing the members of this group by name or listing
their numbers, nor is any time spent in quoting any of
their works which would prove their agenda - which you
state to be the intention to force other Church of
Satan members to 'agree with them or leave the Church
of Satan.'"

<snip Tani griping that she didn't save valuable posts
demonstrating to the contrary>

now we get to the actual discussion about the "survey".

it is evident that some of Peter H. Gilmore's original
commentary on Tim's text is not being quoted in its
*entirety* throughout, having inserted ellipses
("..."). I suspect that a good number of these were
illiterate insertions into HP Gilmore's text without
necessity, and so when I speculated an interruption
for Tani's text, have removed them entirely, often
along with all intervening text of commentary.

when the ellipses seem so inserted without apparent
removal of text, (from the commentary preceded and
followed in 'The CoS Files' page with square [brackets])
they will not be included, these brackets being changed
to "quotation marks". ""two such marks"" later delineating
HP Gilmore's subsequent commentary/discussion with Tani&Co
on a second or third pass.

PROJECT 1
Stewart: By: Timothy Stewart Epperhart - "Wolf At Hart"...

apparently Tim either agreed initially to present himself
as author or was presented as such by Tani&Co.

<snip a good deal of wrangling about the "survey" initially>

Peter: "...The Church of Satan has always been
politically pragmatic - I've said it, LaVey has said
it. The Church of Satan does not dictate the politics
of its members, and they are (and have always been)
free to choose whatever suits their personal needs. For
the record, those outside the Church of Satan have,
from its inception, accused it of all manner of
politics: communism, fascism, anarchism, liberalism,
conservatism - and just about anything else you can
think of, all of which are mutually exclusive. What IS
clear, is that journalists who have an 'axe to grind'
against the Church of Satan have always accused it of
advocating a political system which is one they
personally abhor - thus the Church of Satan plays the
role of 'devil' to them in whatever arena of human
thought they wish to explore."
Stewart: The statements made by Magistrate Nadramia
in her "speculation on similarities between Fascism and
Satanism" are noted and should be viewed for relevance.
http://www.apodion.com/vad/cos/s_n_Nazi.shtml (It is
also in "Is Fascism Satanic" on
www.geocities.com/satanicreds/
Peter: "This article is still relevant (and
was heartily endorsed by Anton LaVey - which doesn't
require that you do likewise), and it was interesting
to note how some of your respondents supplied their own
definitions for fascism - essentially putting a spin on
what Magistra Nadramia had said very clearly, then
argued against it. More 'straw man' tactics, which are
among the methodologies used by demagogues."
...
Peter: "Some of your respondents did attempt to clarify
your error of conflating these terms. That you said
this is an example, however, of a very real 'herd'
definition of these terms. In the 1960's the radical
left preached a philosophy of 'peace and love' which
really boiled down to the concept of leveling
everything to being 'equal.' This 'philosophy'
championed the abandoning of any rational criteria for
evaluation of anything, and the embracing of everything
as being of equal value, which thus fostered
mediocritization of every level of human cultural
endeavor. We are still living in the fallout of this
mode of thinking, as the then young people who espoused
these ideas have grown to adulthood and are now the
'establishment' (those adults whom they considered to
be the enemy during the sixties). This 'egalitarianism'
(for that is what they called it) was manifested in the
'Anything can be defined as being art and all such
works must be considered to have equal validity.'
"Thus, some random splashes on a canvas were
considered an equal achievement to the Sistine Chapel,
a mud hut was held up as being equivalent to
Versailles, and so on. This principle of
'indiscrimination' lead to all other fields of
achievement. A janitor was considered the equivalent to
a physicist, a novelist was now the peer of one who
scrawled graffiti on a bathroom wall and so on. Those
who opposed this leveling were accused of being
'fascists' or 'Nazis,' without regard for what these
terms might have meant in their actual historical
origins and practice. After all, it was the
mid-sixties, twenty years after the ending of a war
that none of these folks were even alive to have
experienced. How quickly past orthodoxies are
forgotten. The Church of Satan was created in the
mid-sixties and stood in contradistinction to these
ideas, which were generally defined as being 'liberal.'
"From the time of the very foundation of the
organization, Anton LaVey and the members of the Church
of Satan were appalled at this societal trend, which
favored the elimination of concrete criteria for the
evaluation of just about anything and instead advocated
that any kind of merit was illusory - and thus that the
act of evaluation was an 'evil' practice.
'Discrimination' became a 'bad word,' when previously
it had meant 'sound judgment.' Well, the Church of
Satan never shied away from embracing things which
society considered 'evil,' and thus it championed a
rebirth of strict criteria for evaluation of all areas
of human endeavor, and quite radically placed the
responsibility for this squarely on the shoulders of
each individual. Thus, there was no 'appeal to
authority' for Satanists - each person held the
responsibility for being their own authority. For this
reason, we were called 'fascists' and 'Nazis' - NOT
because of any advocation of the sociopolitical ends of
these historical movements. Satanists today do not shy
away from being called these names for this very same
reason. We champion merit and superior achievement in
all areas, and are the enemy of enshrined mediocrity.
We abhor what we see as a society that is a rampant
'mediocracy.' The masses (in the sixties as well as of
today) don't know what the terms 'Nazi' and 'fascist'
really mean in a historical sense. These are used as
epithets against anyone with whom they don't agree.
Most frequently they are employed by 'politically
correct' intellectuals who use 'Nazi' and 'fascist' in
the same manner that Joe McCarthy used the word
'communist' and the Christian Inquisitors used the word
'witch' - to discredit the validity of the accused's
point of view and brand them a 'heretic/thought
criminal.' Because of the continuing decline in the
level of education, even amongst those who pursue
degrees at major universities, we can expect that there
will be no real broad understanding of what the terms
'Nazi' and 'fascist' really mean. These will simply
remain derogatory epithets used against those
perceived to be 'the bad guys.'
"Satanists are aware of what impact words and
images have on the herd, and thus use them to their
advantage. It should be clear to anyone who has
observed human society that there is an all-pervading
interest on the part of the contemporary general public
with the Third Reich. This commentary to you would grow
to gigantic proportions should I take the time to
examine the reasons for this (most of which should be
obvious). Anyone with cable television or who happens
to visit movie theatres will see that the Nazis are now
the standard archetype in entertainment for what the
masses deem to be 'Evil' - and they are fascinated with
this and fetishize it to no end. Do you watch 'The
History Channel' (whose emblem is a carved, angular
letter 'H')? We jokingly say that this really stands
for 'Hitler' not 'History' as over 50% of their
programming is Third Reich related. Yes, it's a HERD
thing.
"It should come as no surprise to any Satanist, that
certain savvy Satanists who make their living
entertaining the masses (like Boyd Rice or Brian
Warner) use the public's obsession with this material
for their own ends. Hence both have used symbols and
techniques derived from Third Reich spectacles (which
were undeniably powerful means for motivating masses of
people) for the purpose of stimulating their audiences
and thus putting money in their pockets. Is this
advocating political fascism? No."
...
Peter: "In point of fact, 'stratification' was not the
goal of the German fascists. They sought political
power and needed a scapegoat for the economic woes of
many people. They chose the Jews, since many were
economically successful, and galvanized much of the
populace into following them through this hatred. They
also targeted communists, whom they felt were enemies
to their system of National Socialism. Once the Nazis
took power, their first order of business was to
imprison political enemies, many of whom were
communists. These were the people incarcerated in
concentration camps, long before any program was
established to put Jews in these camps simply because
of their being Jewish. In fact, the German government
worked with Zionist movements to export Jews to the
area now known as Israel, even helping these people to
evade British blockades in their quest to emigrate to
their ancestral 'homeland.' The Holocaust happened
later, at a time of greater desperation for the Nazi
State."

this should stand as HP Gilmore's understanding of the
WWII Holocaust at the time of writing.

now we enter some of the convolution. it appears that
LATER comments by Tani here are interrupting the
original commentary, *then* HP Gilmore's response to it,

Tani1: But the "ideal of fascism" present today in
Satanism is founded upon the notion that certain
magical meanings exist behind ancient symbols, e.g.,
the Swastika.
Peter: ""This statement is complete bunk. Which
Satanists said this and where?""
Tani2: You said "in Satanism." You did not say in COS.
The statement is not bunk at all. MANY other Satanic
orgs, november9.org eg, claim it to be a magical
symbol. Especially, this is so of the Odinist types who
claim to be Satanists.

end interruption.

now back to Tim's original text, supposedly amended or

Stewart: Also influencing them is that the Swastika is
looked upon as being "Evil" like the Sigil of Baphomet.
The Swastika was considered a very atrocious thing.
What the Swastika actually meant in the past has no
bearing on any of this, regardless of Herd
Misconceptions.
Peter: "The herd's misconceptions have EVERYTHING to do
with how a Satanist uses symbols to influence the herd.
That should be obvious. The folks who run around today
and try to reclaim the swastika as a 'good' symbol have
totally failed to supplant the herd's identification of
this as a sign of 'ultimate Evil,' far more potent to
them than the Sigil of Baphomet. Satanists take note of
this fact. When dealing with mass consciousness,
original meanings are not of any importance, but the
current meanings are all important - which was the
import of my discussion of the terms 'Nazi' and
'fascist' above."
Stewart: "Amidst the Hitlerian concept of strength
through joy!" -ASL, The Satanic Bible. Indeed, Hitler
was no fool when he offered the people freedom on a
personal level, but the way that it was done was wrong
and is opposed to Church of Satan doctrine.
Peter: "Here is the crux of what is a major misprision
that exists in almost all of the people who responded
to your project. It is that they identify with the
herd, and not the rulers of these projected
'idealistic' fascist societies."
...
Peter: "Fascism in actuality is a doctrine that
requires the submission of individuals to the goals of
the state. It is a collectivist philosophy, suppressing
individualism, which states that each person should
sacrifice himself to an abstract principle, which is
treated as a mythologically sacred entity - THE STATE.
"The past supposed 'glories' of the state become
the sacred icons in what is in actuality a new
religion. Fascism is clearly a means for controlling
herds (and one that was effective). When this doctrine
is placed into practice, there has to be somebody who
tells the herd what the needs of THE STATE are to be,
since THE STATE is just an abstraction - it does not
exist. Here enters the 'Ruling Class' - otherwise known
as the Nazi Party, The Communist Party, the Khmer
Rouge, and so on. These rulers claim to embody THE
STATE, and tell the masses what is the will of THE
STATE, and they reign much like the ancient
priesthoods, who held their power by being the only
ones capable of communicating to people the 'will of
the Gods.' These people are a de facto 'aristocracy,'
which uses THE STATE for its raison d'etre, just as the
latter day heads of some of the communist states handed
down THE WILL OF THE PEOPLE as their excuse for
controlling their massed subjects. These rulers are not
subject to sacrificing themselves to THE STATE, because
they are the ones who, as embodiments of THE STATE,
choose who is to be sacrificed (and they don't pick
themselves - though sometimes they do pick their
cohorts who are getting a bit too cocky). These kinds
of rulers now use terms more palatable to our century,
whose masses won't buy such old excuses as 'the divine
right of kings,' but their means are identical. Of
course, these rulers are often foiled by subsequent
'prophets,' who convince the masses that they, rather
than the current rulers, embody THE STATE, and so
counter-revolutions occur and the former leaders are
usually dispatched with violence.
"'Don't pay any attention to the man behind the
curtain!' said the glowering face in a fountain of fire
(THE STATE/THE WILL OF THE PEOPLE), hoping that Dorothy
and crew wouldn't notice who really is pulling the
strings. But Toto (the beast) pulled aside the curtain.
Now we might begin to see how Satanists factor in to
this equation. The Satanist should always be aware of
who is really running the situation in which he finds
himself. Satanists do not see themselves as being part
of the herd and naturally resist any attempts to be
forced to live under any regimes that would make them
part of the controlled herd. However, Satanists really
don't care how the herd is being controlled, so long as
they themselves aren't subject to being controlled
along with them. If forced by circumstance to be part
of such a governmental situation (and I caution the
reader to examine how much he really knows about the
machinations of his current nation of residence), the
clever Satanist would either be the person who pulls
the strings, or, more likely, his associate. Being the
one behind a 'leader' is generally a safer position, as
the leader is always a target, while the advisors often
survive changes in 'top dogs.'
"Some Satanists who are 'political idealists'
might envision a future wherein Satanists are the 'man
behind the curtain' directing the herd to support their
own personal indulgences - the herd sacrificing
themselves to a ruling, but necessarily hidden, Satanic
'elite.' Frankly, I see this as a political pipedream.

we might speculate that this is the origin of the name
and a reflection of the interests of the 'Social Realists'
(aka "Satanic Reds") whose membership includes Tani&Co.

Running a state would leave little time for personal
indulgences and enjoying one's life. In contemporary
Western society, the only political factions likely to
attempt create a fascistic system (as meant by the
original meanings of the terms) are the right-wing
Christians (and the film, 'The Handmaid's Tale'
provides a chilling visualization of this possibility).
I think it far more productive to advocate a system
which guarantees freedom for the exercise of many
points of view (so long as it doesn't require me to pay
for wastrels who want a free ride).
"But we in the administration of the Church of Satan
do not control the thoughts of our members, so if some
of them want to toy with these 'political dreams,' that
is their business. As long as they don't drag our
Church into any political agendas, their personal
pursuits remain just that: personal."

again emphasizing the 'dream' character which later Tani&Co
would counter with their 'Social Realist 10-Point agenda
(also mimicking LaVey's "10 Point Plan").

...
Stewart: Herd mentality is a sin in CoS doctrine and
it is noted: how else would the Nazis be able to
exterminate a race? On a personal level? Was this a way
for an ideal form of stratification?
Peter: "Did anyone say it was?"

weakly separating the CoS from neo-naziism as have many
of their essays which were part of discussions within
their own publications (also in response to those
such as Jeffrey Deboo). later discernment is stronger.

<snip Tani lamenting Tim not having saved quotations
supposedly proving someone in an upper position in
the CoS said something akin to this.>

Stewart: Is murder stratification, and would these
actions be "justified" because they were founded upon a
Fascistic point of view?

this is an imperative question. it effectively asks whether
LaVey's sociopolitical aim of 'stratification' might be used

Peter: "That humans kill one another is a part of the
way our species functions. When nations come into
conflict with each other, and this escalates beyond
economic exchanges, what in peacetime would be termed
'murder' then becomes justified in the hands of the
military. How the conflicts finally pan out is one of
the means for large-scale stratification in our
species."

this is a somewhat ambiguous denial of such support,
but taken in context it is a clear denial that the
Church of Satan does not define stratification
in a manner which aligns to fascist ideologies.

...
Peter: "Since multi-level definitions of "fascism" were
not explored in this project (you and your respondents
missed its "common-parlance" usage and chose to
concentrate only on some of its historical
definitions), the analyses in the postings on your site
concerning what form of attractions/repulsions it may
have for certain types of individuals do not even begin
to qualify as being exhaustive or even relevant."

implying that *some* meanings of the term 'fascism' might
well be valuable/important to LaVeyan stratification. it
is this weakness in separating from neo-nazi factions that
earns the CoS criticism from many, including Tani&Co (who
now promote a type of Communism, as 'Reds' parading under
Stalinesque flags) and from occasonal independents such
as Jeffrey Deboo and myself.

Stewart: [<snip Tani's text>] Regardless of the differences
between the "moral foundations" of those Fascists in the
past and the present Fascist infection, as I see it, they
share the same intentions. That is, to form an "All is
One" union or dictatorship at the highest levels in the
organization that would trickle down, via brainwashing,
and a "toe the line or get out" party line to the
rank-and-file.
...
Peter: "The Church of Satan has never required anything
of its members except that they hold the writings of
Anton LaVey as their basis for membership in this
organization. Members are free to build their own
personal viewpoints on this foundation. If people have
substantial disagreements with LaVey's work, or wish to
promote something else as the basis for Satanism, like
the 'dark doctrines,' then they should not be members
and should tender their resignations immediately.

here the real divisions begin to become glaringly plain.
HP Gilmore continues, making it clear what type of CoS

"There is no 'brainwashing' in this
organization - we don't have the time for such labor
intensive activities, which would garner minimal
results, and which are counter to our basic principles.
"As from the beginning, we are a cabal of very
independent individuals who share a philosophy
synthesized by Anton LaVey as our point of commonality.
And we will not try to force our members into some kind
of lock-step unity in their personal choices for
building upon LaVey's foundation. However, one thing I
see in common amongst many of the responders to your
letter, is that they usually do identify themselves as
a self-proclaimed 'faction' who center themselves on
the ideas of Tani Jantsang, not those of Anton LaVey.

here is it is made even more clear that HP Gilmore sees
this entire "survey" as the construction of Tani&Co,
something which even Tim appears to be supporting now,
and whose text at the end of this document makes clear
he considers akin to the Aquino+priests break with CoS.

"Even if this is not admitted, any casual
observer of the writings of these people makes this
very clear. And, from their recent activities in chat
rooms and on Usenet, it is abundantly apparent that
this clique is set on making the Church of Satan a
"one true way" organization based on their
interpretations of issues of sociology, politics,
and biology. This "faction" clearly plays
"Inquisition" and labels those members of the Church
of Satan who disagree with them as "Klippoths"

that HP Gilmore sees this as primarily an internet
phenomenon is clear, and fits with my observation of
the expressions of TJantsang as reacting as if the
public threats against her were actual deeds. her
continuous struggle in usenet with a variety of
individuals is evident, with periods during which
this precise identification ("Klippoths") enters
into the abrasive interactions she and her cohorts
engage, always superior to their avowed 'enemies'.

(remember, Joe McCarthy and the Inquisitors
as mentioned above?), and is now working to make their
opinions the basis for the Church of Satan. I represent
the administration of the Church of Satan and state
that we will not tolerate this attempt at turning our
organization into a totalitarian organization whose
sole aim is the promotion of the agendas of this small
group of individuals. These people followed their own
paths in the past, and didn't require that others
kowtow to them.
"However, particularly since these folk are
active 'online,' lately their ideas seem less and less
based on the work of LaVey, and consequently more and
more demanding that all other members of the Church of
Satan whom they encounter must agree with them.
If they find individual members who disagree,
they have stated that they will attempt to drive them
out. This is not acceptable, as it is not the business
of this clique to determine who is or who is not a
member of the Church of Satan. They are not
administrators of this organization, and they
are not arbiters of membership.

effectively what I have already said was probably
the case in the struggle between Tani&Co and the CoS
(as well as many others who encounter the former).

HP Gilmore continues a very reasonable assessment
of the behaviour of Tani&Co (whom members of the
alt.satanism usenet newsgroup took to calling 'Tani
and her Flying Monkeys' or 'Tani and her drones' --
the latter a smear-term she undertook herself later
to apply to those catcalling her in usenet; something

"As Dr. LaVey has said, when ice melts, it is
called water. So, if this clique has decided that they
have a new foundation for their concepts of Satanism
(and Tani herself has said there is little of Satanism,
by her definition, in the Church of Satan),
then they are all invited to leave immediately and
found their own unique organization."

something which Tani&Co now appear to have done in their
ambiguously labelled "Satanic Reds"/"Social Realists"
and proclaimedly unrelated "Red Comrades". back to this

Stewart: The reader who is paying attention will note
the similarity in this (fascist) doctrine and outlook
to the early Christian doctrine of "Convert or Die."
Peter: "Essentially this defines the tactics used by
the Tani clique (Agree with our way of 'correcting'
LaVey or be branded a 'Klippoth'), NOT the Church of
Satan's administration, which accepts a rather diverse
set of means derived from LaVey's writings."
Stewart: The proponents of this Organizational Fascism
Peter: "Whom you have still failed to identify."
Tani: WE WILL identify them, hell, the book "Lucifer
Rising" identified them!

the fact that Tani&Co had not identified them here and
relies upon Baddeley's book for data is quite amusing.

Stewart: cannot practice that doctrine in full in the
real world because those in the past that objected to
this tyranny bought our freedom from that fate with
their blood.
Peter: "This reads like a threat to the straw man of
'proponents of Organizational Fascism,' that those who
disagree with them will do so 'with their blood.' That
is typical rhetorical nonsense, not rational debate - a
tactic used so effectively by Dr. Goebbels, I might add.

here as above, HP Gilmore is attempting to reverse the
brush of fascism upon Tani&Co, something which is still
fairly easy to do as long as she and they identify with
labels so easily connected to WWII Stalinism (e.g. NKVD).

Stewart: Were it still a valid option, however, the
vehemence of the Satanic Fascist faction
Peter: "Some evidence of this 'vehemence,' please."
Stewart: makes it fairly plain that it would be a
method joyously utilized by them to silence the
opposition! "You better shut up!" "You better drop this
project." "You can leave if you don't like it."
Tani: they said that to you in CHAT and you DID NOT log it.

indicating that the foundation of the entire 'CoS Files'
is UNSUBSTANTIATED EXCEPT ON THE FORCE OF TANI'S CLAIM,
NOW APPARENTLY EVEN DISPUTED BY TIM. HP Gilmore continues
to ask the pertinent questions, for which Tani does indeed

Peter: "Has any member of the administration of the
Church of Satan told any of the people who've responded
to this project to 'shut up'?
<Tani's response interrupts here>
Tani1: Schlessinger, Ventrue, and 2 others, forgot who.
They even advised you to read Main Kampf by Hitler! -
or so you ran into muse [#satanmuse, Tani&Co's IRC
chat-channel] and told everyone.
Peter: <continuing> (Whether any of us thinks that
it is a project that has been executed with any skill
is another matter, but we generally don't offer our
opinions unless asked, as per one of our 'Rules of the
Earth.') And concerning the corporate entity, which is
the Church of Satan, it IS thoroughly within our rights
as administrators of the corporation to tell any
members that, if they disagree with how we are running
the organization, then they SHOULD 'leave if they don't
like it.' We are also empowered to terminate their
titles and membership at will. Membership in the Church
of Satan does not grant you rights of usage of property
which belongs to the corporation, nor does it give you
anything beyond what the administration of the
corporation chooses to give to you."
Stewart: This doctrinal similarity with the avowed
enemies of the Satanic movement in the past, is a large
contributing factor to the feeling, on my part and on
the part of many, that these so-called Nazi Revisionist
Satanists have worn out their welcome. Some still pose
the question of whether there is, indeed, a Fascist
faction in the CoS.
Peter: "Again, you've presented no evidence whatsoever
that there exists a faction of 'Nazi Revisionist
Satanists' in the Church of Satan, much less that such
a mythical faction has any power in the organization."
Stewart: What of stratification? Would that not be a
definition of what is going on within the organization?
Peter: "Stratification is a term coined by Anton LaVey
to signify how nature allows everything to 'seek its
own level.' It is not something to be advocated - it
happens of its own accord. In human social situations
there are many strata - though here in the West for
years this was (mistakenly) thought to be invalid
because 'democracy' supposedly dissolved the old formal
class structures. In reality, classes founded on
economic status were the new 'strata,' though some
mobility is offered when individuals who were
entrepreneurs garnered enough wealth to move out of
their original stratum. In the past, there were still
issues for these 'upwardly mobile' individuals
concerning their social status since families coming
from 'old money' were associated with 'cultured
aristocracy' while their 'new money' was pegged as
being part of 'crass materialism' (and there was
some evidence to support these stereotypes). And
stratification is always happening in the
organization, as such cannot be avoided."
Stewart: It is an interesting question. I would ask the
reader to keep the following point in mind as he/she
ponders the question of stratification: the goal of
Fascism is "sameness." In no way does "sameness" equate
with stratification.
Peter: "The goal of fascism is to weld a group of
people together towards a common goal - support of a
state - which itself is an illusion created by the
rulers of that state. The 'sameness' is the common
purpose, and such has always been the means for
totalitarians whether they are called fascists, or
clergy, or commissars. This has nothing ostensibly
to do with stratification, which ideally is the
recognition of natural differences depending upon
merit, but can be seen practically in how well the
clever 'know the ropes' of the system in which they
live. People rise and fall, or remain static in their
society. Like seeks like. As Satanists, we embrace
the principle that there are those who naturally are
leaders, and those who are followers. There are masters
and there are slaves, and quite a few shades in
between. It is a delusion amongst many who embrace
Satanism that by adopting this philosophy, they are
immediately 'masters,' and are thus now equal to all of
the other 'masters.' This is an error. Satanists know
that those who embrace Satanism treat themselves as
their own Gods - making the satisfaction of their
individual selves the standard of value for their
lives. However, only the naive would think that amongst
these self-acknowledged Satanists that everyone is
automatically in some kind of 'equivalent brotherhood'
now that they are calling themselves 'Satanists.'
Nothing could be further from reality. Embracing
Satanism does not automatically give you advanced
creative skills, a lifetime of hard-won experience, or
wisdom garnered from studying the wealth of information
now at our fingertips. You may be 'your own god' but
you don't have instant 'godhood' in the realm of human
endeavor - that is something only gained through the
refined cultivation of whatever talents are yours by
nature. Satanism can be a great 'launching pad' for
those who are realists, to see where they stand in
their level of personal achievement, and to rationally
decide how to advance themselves in whatever manner
they choose (or not to advance themselves, but to enjoy
whatever level they wish to have). Amongst Satanists,
there are some who embrace the principles of this
philosophy and do not feel that they have the
capabilities to make their own horizons, as Nietzsche
defined a characteristic of his superior humans. These
honest individuals, under Satanism, have the choice to
personally (and wisely) select their master, and thus
to guarantee that they will get the guidance they
desire which will be beneficial to themselves (unlike
unwilling slaves, they are also free to switch masters
should they so choose). Few are honest enough about
themselves to make such a decision. We are thus
confronted with a spectacle of 'Satanists' who are all
failing the 'leaky inner tube test.' They puff
themselves up with claims of godhood, when they are,
by any objective standards, really just a bunch of
low-grade buffoons who can't produce anything on a
level that could be deemed professional (as low as many
standards for professionalism are these days). Would
that they could honestly look into the mirror and see
themselves for who they really are, and that those who
aren't 'leaders and innovators' should stop being
pretenders to those thrones. They'd be happier and
the fringes of Satanism would look less ridiculous.
However, we do understand the 'nature of the human
beast' and thus will do our best to usher these
pretentious fools out of the door of the Church
of Satan."

a more firm opposition to the fascist politics based on
its enshrinement of the state and opposition to such
advances by Satanists of individualism. this has been
fairly consistent both in LaVey's writings and also in
HP Gilmore's writings as in his letters to Apple Computer.

Stewart: The members of this Fascist faction would have
us believe that by belonging to their faction they are
demonstrating some kind of "personal power." In their
eyes, the identification with a political doctrine and
people that sought the elimination of a supposedly
"weaker race" invests them with some feeling of
superiority, and they take this to be Satanic.
Peter: "You have offered no evidence for such a faction
in the Church of Satan using this methodology. This
is, however, an accurate description of many white
supremacists, and those folk are currently in short
supply amongst our membership. I suggest that this must
have something to do with Anton LaVey's personal Jewish
roots, as well as the fact that we don't embrace racism
since it is collectivist thinking and thus not
compatible with the individualist basis for the
philosophy of the Church of Satan."
...
Peter: "Real Satanists have confidence and 'personal
power' as they determine the course of their lives, to
whatever extent is possible in the society in which
they live. There are times when masochists are
attracted to Satanists, and these folk antagonize the
Satanist in an attempt to goad them into exercising
their real power (not a postured power). The Satanist,
as LaVey explained, is an Epicurean Sadist, and when
such masochists come-a-calling, the Satanist often says
'No' to the symbolic requests for a 'beating,' thus
turning the masochist's sought after eustress into
distress. But the Satanist's option to say 'yes' also
exists, and he can then provide the masochist with the
'beating' being requested, only if it gives the
Satanist satisfaction. That some Satanists use
fascist-related imagery to manipulate the herd has
nothing to do with their own sense of efficacy. They
don't need it to be bolstered via symbols of any sort.
It is simply a matter of pushing buttons in the mass
(or individual) consciousness for their own ends - as
was described above concerning Boyd Rice and Brian
Warner. We all know from history that the real fascist
movements fell from power. BUT, only a fool would
ignore the continued power of their iconography over
the popular consciousness. Hence, you don't see any
Satanists advocating neo-fascist political movements -
which are currently the purview of those who feel they
have no power over their lives and are looking for
scapegoats to blame for this powerlessness. The
neo-Nazis are generally powerless white folk, who want
to try to do what Hitler did in the past. They are
clinging to a sunken ship. Real fascists today use
Jesus and Christian moral righteousness to make their
way to power, blaming those who oppose their morality
for the distress their members feel. Their scapegoats
are chosen using their own morality and faith as the
criteria. Satanists, for the most part, clearly oppose
Christian concepts of morality and would also oppose
the success of such movements (unless, perhaps, they
have the concession for selling Christian
tchotchkes!)."
Stewart: An interesting aside is that these people are
idolizing a system of thought and practice that would
see them as its first victims. No genuine political
Fascist would "suffer a Satanist to live."
Peter: "This is correct, in as much as I've said above,
that the only forces poised to effectively create a
fascist state in the current Western world are those
motivated by the right-wing Christian coalition. They'd
love a theocracy, but not one dominated by the Vatican
as was the last such political state. As said above,
some 'politically idealist' Satanists might advocate a
very different kind of fascism, wherein the goals of
the state are defined by Satanists, and the herd
follows them (though this is really quite a
'pie-in-the-sky' form of idealism which I find
incompatible with the essential pragmatism of
Satanism). And to reiterate what I said above, if some
Satanists want to satisfy themselves with such dreams,
they may, so long as they don't identify them with the
aims of the Church of Satan, which are emphatically not
political, nor are they idealistic."

something which the "Satanic Reds" (/"Social Realists")
have pinpointed as their line of departure. having
identified a subsector of the Satanist community with
which the Church of Satan can truly have no quarrel as
long as it isn't identified as *originating* from said
Church, they have paraded this under the flag of crypto-
Stalinism as an echo of the apparent heritage of Tani
(whose father was apparently an NKVD agent).

Stewart: The political and real ideal of Satanism was
set forth over 200 years ago and is rooted in the
concept of Freedom. Specific examples of those Freedoms
freedom of speech, religion, the press, and assembly
and petition.
Peter: "We Satanists tend to define the United States
as the world's first 'Satanic Republic.' But you should
note that the 'founding fathers' did not originally grant
freedom to everyone - it was thought to be a 'right'
only for those whom they deemed worthy and capable of
intelligent ability to exercise such freedoms - which
originally excluded people such as slaves and women.
Thus, they weren't giving everyone equality, but were
advocating freedom for people whom they defined as equals
in ability and capability, an important distinction that
has been lost on many who want to interpret their wisely
constructed governmental structure as being 'egalitarian.'"
Stewart: Are we to accept any less from an
organization, specifically a Satanic one that
supposedly holds the Self sacred, than we demand
from our government? I think not!
Peter: "The Church of Satan is not a political state,
but a corporation, and does not pretend to operate as
does the United States government. In practice, we who
administer the organization do as Anton LaVey mandated
- we seek out the assistance of individuals of superior
ability to assist in our goal, which is the
dissemination of the philosophy synthesized by Anton
LaVey. This corporation is NOT an autonomous
collective, nor is it a republic or a democracy, and
the members have no final say in how it is run. The
members may state their opinions (and should do so,
according to one of our 'Rules of the Earth,' only when
we solicit them). But we who run this show are under no
obligation to act in any way other than as we see fit.
During his life, Anton LaVey was the bottom line for
decisions concerning how the Church of Satan was run.
As a member of his Council of Nine for many years, he
often sought my view on matters of import, but he
always made his own final decisions and took the
responsibility for them. He picked some of us to carry
on this responsibility, and to do so with the same
authority which he wielded. We do not claim to be doing
otherwise, and if people have joined us under the
illusion that they will share in the running of this
corporation simply by paying $100, then they have
deluded themselves and are invited to tender their
resignations immediately."
Stewart: Two hundred years ago, a group of people
dedicated to "Nature's god" looked at the tyranny that
they were forced to live with and decided that such
tyranny was no longer to be tolerated or accepted.
They pledged themselves, at the cost of "their lives,
fortunes and sacred honor," to freedom from the tyranny
of the "Christian King of Great Britain." The
government they formed in the midst of Revolution was
Liberty, Equity and Unity. Liberty: Do as Thou Wilt.
those who practice the principles of Liberty and Equity
come together to preserve them, wherever and whenever
they are threatened.
Peter: "Dealt with above - they deemed a select group
capable of exercising these freedoms."
Stewart: Again, the reader who is paying attention will
note that nowhere in that Satanic ideal will you find
anything of the Fascist ideal. Indeed, the two are
anathema to each other.
[apparently Peter:] "Depending upon how one defines
each of these ideals - which you treat as absolutes,
but which are not."
Stewart: On an ironic note, it is that very freedom and
liberalism that the Fascist faction finds so abhorrent,
that allows the Satanic organization that they infect
to exist! "All religions are equal under the law. The
State should not interfere." Liberals say this.
Peter: "If one is not a member of the 'ruling class,'
but is actually part of a minority faction in a
pluralistic society, then advocating that 'everyone be
treated equally under the law' may guarantee that you
will have a maximum amount of personal freedom (if
there aren't other 'power factors' at work - like
wealth). Of course the amount of freedom depends upon
the laws of the society in which one lives and we
recognize that special interest groups often jostle to
get more of the 'pie' via handouts and privileges
established via state mechanisms) As an aside,
Satanists know that there are no 'natural rights' as
the concept of rights requires someone or something to
be doling them out, and in the past this is usually
considered to be some God. The only 'rights' one has
are those given by the laws of the governmental
structure under which you live, and ultimately, even
these devolve into what you may attain for yourself
using whatever personal power you might have. That is
why the rich get away with so much more, as their
wealth gives them power and hence, 'more rights' in a
society ruled by lawyers and not justice. However, if
you belonged to the 'ruling class' you might have a
very different perspective. It is true that
self-identified Satanists are currently as I described
above, a minority in a pluralistic society. But what if
they achieved a position of being the 'ruling class'?
How would clever self-declared Satanists run a
government? What would they advocate? How would they
control the masses? This could be a fine question which
could be dealt with in a novel of speculative fiction,
as it is not likely to happen in reality. But, we do
know that the people who really understand how to
exercise power on the highest of human levels,
regardless of whatever philosophy they spew as their
cover, are actually maintaining their power by behaving
in accordance with the true nature of the human
species, and are thus de facto Satanists."
Stewart: It can be seen that the ideals of the Fascist
have nothing in common with the ideals of the Satanist,
yet here we have a Fascist faction infecting a Satanic
organization.
Peter: "No, it is certainly not true that we have a
'Fascist faction infecting' our Church of Satan. You
assert this as fact without offering any concrete
evidence."
...
Peter: "It is not the business of the administrators to
attempt to argue you and many of your respondents to
this project out of their misprision regarding this
false contention that there is a faction of fascists
which has usurped the Church of Satan. You are wrong.
Perhaps now you might be seeing that you've made an
error in your assertions. But, if your self-proclaimed
'anti-fascism clique' (the only 'faction' which we
administrators see) feels strongly enough in their
belief of this fiction, then we invite all of you to
send in your resignations immediately (please use the
San Diego PO Box so that we can close your files with
utmost efficiency). You are advocating that members of
the Church of Satan "take back" a corporation which
does not belong to them.
"That sort of 'coup' is not possible, and those
who advocate such will not be tolerated as members
by this administration. You are hereby advised to
immediately follow your own advice: separate yourselves
and form a 'new faction.' Your 'one true way' attempt
to force the entire membership of the Church of Satan
to conform to your opinions is not welcome. It is
ironic that throughout history this has always been the
cry of those who want to establish their own tyranny -
the claim to advocate 'liberation,' which actually
paves the way towards establishing a hegemony which
favors their own special interests. Remember
Robespierre? Probably not, else some perspective would
have crept into this 'project.' So, if any of you has
the 'courage of your convictions' we should expect to
see your departure, as you cannot change our methods,
which we continue to use exactly as Anton LaVey
mandated we should.
"Additionally, I found it amusing that this whole
'project' is spent railing against the 'evils' of
fascism. When viewed in a broader perspective, it
simply smacks of jumping on the 'politically correct'
bandwagon - 'We may be Satanists, but we aren't
fascists - heavens no!'"

2nd and 3rd passes interrupt here.

Tani1: That is not what provoked you [apparently Tim]
to write this at all - and you should have TOLD them this.
But this IS what everyone else thought it was about!
ME TOO, as you can see from my first response. Phil too,
see by his response. Everyone thought that, just about.
Peter: "Such is the usual course of action for those who
can't bear to be without a 'goodguy badge.' And, as Dr.
LaVey pointed out, all wearers of goodguy badges need
an audience - hence the 'project' satisfies this dictum.
Tani2: Oh, I think the stuff YOU wrote is confrontational
as hell. Seeing this, I made mine more confrontational. :)
I spoke what I felt. Simple as that.
Stewart [to Tani!]: Your concluding paragraph above has
the tenor, if not the literary skills, of missives I
recall reading which date from 1975. They were written
by a self-righteous Michael Aquino who had convinced
himself that the Church of Satan had sold-out on its
principles. LaVey pointed out to him that he really
didn't understand those principles in the first place
and really didn't understand how the organization as a
whole was being run. I am now saying the same to you
and those who share your delusion. In some of the
forwarded email exchanges from the "Tani-clique"
preceding this "project," I noted a railing against
the concept of hierarchy in the Church of Satan -
redefining it into something non-natural and then
shooting it down (the same tactic as is used in this
"fascism project").
...
Peter: "The Church of Satan has a natural hierarchy,
wherein titles are granted by its administration on the
basis of merit. But these titles aren't 'frozen.' If
someone screws up and lets us down, their title, and
even their membership, may be revoked. There are
currently members who have titles, including Magisters
and Magistras, whom the Council has decided have been
a disgrace to these titles, abusing these tokens of
esteem and using them to browbeat other members, or as
convincers for specious contentions. While we are
patient and generally trust that our original
estimation of these people may again prove to be their
norm, if such does not happen speedily, then we will
not hesitate to bring to an end these members'
affiliation with the Church of Satan.
"And if anyone doubts that what we are doing is
not as LaVey planned, we can offer evidence concerning
protocols for this Church from its very earliest of
days which I must admit we've actually been fairly lax
in maintaining amongst the rabble of our membership
online. Recall that LaVey specified in 'The Cloven
Hoof' that one of the ways for getting ahead in the
Church of Satan was termed 'pleasing the boss.' As I've
seen in some email exchanges from this clique, that
last word seems to have bothered some of you. I would
posit that there were some less-than-positive
employment situations in the past for those who feel
this way. LaVey did see himself as the head of his
Church, though this does not mean that this position
meant anything more or less than it could in a group
whose members join and leave voluntarily. He expected
his members and appointed representatives to
instinctually know the boundaries between 'Church
business,' and the personal 'life matters' that always
remained up to each individual. Those who fail to be
able to make this distinction will be called to task.
In matters of their own lives, Church of Satan members
have complete sovereignty - they are their own bosses
(to paraphrase a current pop tune lyric, 'We ain't the
boss of thee'). Members of the Church of Satan have
always been expected to treat each other as 'ladies and
gentlemen.'
"Additionally, those who work at administering
the organization ARE part of a corporate hierarchy, and
they are expected to act accordingly. That includes
people who are granted the privilege of representing
the Church of Satan - it comes with specific
responsibilities, and if these are not willingly
accepted, then the privilege may honorably be refused.
Once accepted, if these responsibilities are abused,
then the position is revoked. Over the course of the
history of our Church, there have often been times when
people had to lay down their titles as they could not
continue to honor the responsibilities which came with
them. Did one of our 'founding fathers,' General George
Washington, confer with all of his soldiers before he
made tactical decisions? No. He consulted with his
hand-picked trusted advisors, then made his choice
based on his own evaluations of the facts and the
opinions he received by request. And he expected
adherence to his decisions about this situation in
which all were voluntarily involved. That is the
natural way an organized meritocratic group (which
seeks to attain a common goal) works. It is not
anarchic, and the leader (boss) does not waste time
soliciting the thoughts of all involved - only the
ideas of those who count in his estimation. That is how
LaVey ran the Church of Satan, and that is how we
continue to run the Church of Satan. If any of you are
peeved because you haven't earned a place amongst those
whose opinions count, you only have yourselves to
blame.
"For the edification of those who are
'anti-hierarchy,' we include an excerpt from 'The
Cloven Hoof' which delineated precisely how it was
expected that Church of Satan members should deal with
each other. LaVey promoted this ideal, and we are
certain that he would be ashamed if he could witness
the sorry spectacle we've had the misfortune of viewing
as it takes place in chat rooms and on Usenet.
Peter: "Hail Satan!
Magister Peter H. Gilmore For High Priestess Barton
and the rest of the Council of Nine

how much more clearly could it possibly be spelt out?
the included 1970 document follows (evaluated as

From "The Cloven Hoof," Issue June V Anno Satanas (1970 CE).
Basic Rules of Protocol
I. Orders: Each member in attendance at a grotto of the
Church shall render due respect and deference, in both
word and action, to his superiors in the Church, as
well as to members of higher orders than that to which
he belongs. He shall also demonstrate regard for all
members of the Church as befits their status as
servants of the Infernal Lord and subjects of the
Infernal Empire. It shall be incumbent upon members
attending rituals to wear the amulet of their
respective Order, unless a serious reason prevents them
from doing so.

note the stipulation of "the Infernal Lord" and "subjects
of the Infernal Empire". this may be contradictory to
both notions of 'atheistic CoSatanists' as well as the
contentions by Tani&Co as "Dark Doctrines"-oriented.

II. Titles: Officials of the Church are to be addressed
by their respective titles except when to do so would
be awkward or reveal identities and positions to those
who should not be so informed, such as non-members.
This is to be determined by the circumstances, but
great effort should be made to demonstrate respect and
loyalty. The ordinary forms of address to be used are
as follows: The High Priest: "Your Excellency," or "My
Lord, High Priest" in the context of rituals. These may
also be used in ordinary address, but "Doctor" and
"Magus" may be used as well. The High Priestess: "High
Priestess, Priestess," or "Lady Diane." The Magister of
"Reverend," or in the case of Priestesses, "Priestess."
Other officials are to be addressed by their last name,
prefixed with "Mr., Mrs.," or "Miss," unless the member
has a first-name relationship with them.
III. Gestures of Respect: Members should ordinarily
stand when the High Priest enters the room, and if a
handshake is to be extended, it is the High Priest's
prerogative to make the gesture, NOT the member's to
assume. When receiving Infernal benedictions from the
High Priest, it is usual to kneel, but to stand when
receiving such from other members of the clergy.
IV. Difficulties or Complaints: Difficulties or
complaints should first be discussed with the member in
charge. General problems should be taken up with the
Taskmaster of the Grotto, who will, if necessary, refer
them to the Priestess of the Grotto or the Magister.
Only in extreme cases should it be necessary to bring
these to the attention of the High Priestess or the
High Priest, and then only through the proper channels.
V. General Attitude toward Regulations and Protocol: It
should be apparent that all regulations and forms of
protocol are designed to increase the dignity and
status of the Church, and are, therefore, to the
benefit of even the least important member. Satanists
are ready to pay deference to their superiors, and
expect, in consequence, respect from their inferiors.
This is the order of nature, and we as magicians must
regulate our lives in accordance with that order. If
you do not understand why an individual has been placed
in a certain position, it behooves you to have
confidence in the decisions and knowledge possessed by
those in authority who make such appointments, and to
act accordingly.

failing to acknowledge any particular religious body as
authoritative, these stipulations would of necessity be
only pertinent to membership of the CoS. outside said
membership, the description of stratification seems to
be quite plain.

-------------------------------------------------------
end of Article 1.

it was probably at this point that I quit "The CoS Files"
as worthless propaganda by Tani&Co, but I'll look through
the rest of them somewhat to see if there is anything of
value to Satanism as a whole or contentions that there is
truly some portion of the CoS which is fascist or trying
to bully its membership unfairly.

blessed beast!

boboroshi at-sign satanservice.org: Satanic Outreach Director
Church of Euthanasia: http://www.churchofeuthanasia.org/
TOKUS WEBLINKS: http://dmoz.org/Bookmarks/B/boboroshi/
Ninth Scholar's Library (Satanism Archive): http://www.satanservice.org/

[SOD of the CoE]

50041212 viii om Hail Satan!

these two articles suffice for archival of 'The CoS Files'
information and what little information they contain as
regards Satanism and its continuing sociological study.
the rest seem primarily of the character of chatlogs and
missives that are tedious and have the character of a good
number of other religious squabbles I've occasionally
encountered due to a lack of understanding as to how
churches and authority tend to work within them.

==========
Article 2
==========

the rest of "The CoS Files"
---------------------------

the bulk of which deal with online squabbles and a great
deal of second-hand, third-hand, and Tani-originating info
that have little to no bearing on fascistic slants to the
CoS and more to do with Tani&Co's interest in continued
struggle and slamming the CoS as has been commented upon
within some of the newsgroup to which this is helpfully
crossposted.

so onward....
-------------------------------------------------------

<skipping many useless online chatlogs and missives
displaying a continued INability to separate
internet life from the ordinary, legal world>

On the CoS and Its Policies

<the sub-page is NOT convincing that it actively recruits,
skipping to>

CoS Divulges Personal Membership Information
Peggy sent the following email to people engaged in a
flame war with Max Barrons on alt.satanism. Would
anyone want to send in the active affiliation
questionnaire with personal information knowing that
the information would be used like this?
Note also that Peggy uses the information from her
Black Flame subscription information.
CC: Subj: Newsflash?
Just found out via my periodic cruise of the Base of
Set that Don Webb is now a Magus due to his
"Re-Utterance of the Word Xeper" and is the High Priest
of Set.
FYI: Maxwell S. Barrons, PO Box 836631, Richardson, TX
75083-6631, is a subscriber to TBF and joined the CoS
last November -- however, he never filled out his
Active Membership application.
<snip the rest>

so having neglected to fill out this "Active Membership
application", does this mean that the person wasn't even
a member, and therefore the information shared wasn't
about their roster? he "joined the CoS". what's the story?

<skipping faceless allegations to>

Fascism and Nazism
The CoS may not be a fascist/Nazi organization,
according to official policy. However, one notes that
several administrators and highest-ranking officials in
the CoS are just that. Boyd Rice, Jeff Nagy, and Rex
Church are examples of officials that were given titles
as Magisters and who are notably fascist.

skipping the first two, who don't have text, only pictures,
the last (Rex Church) has an interview about him with a man
named James Jordan (pseud. 'Harry Lime' apparently), who

Rex Church
From: "James Jordan" [apparently aka Harry Lime]
To: "People's Commissar" [aka Tani Jantsang]
Date: Wed, 13 Dec 2000 11:56:04 -0800
Subject: Rex Church info
Here's the info on Rex Church, now Magister in the CoS.
At the time I interviewed him, back in 1993, he was a
Priest. I worked at the radio station KVAN in
Vancouver, Washington. I don't remember the exact date
of the interview, but I do recall that it was in 1993.
The purpose of the interview was to discuss the CoS and
its presence here in Portland, Oregon. Billy Graham had
been here recently, and I thought I'd give the "devil
his due" with the opposing side. Since I was an
acquaintence of Blanche's through an ex-finacee, Rex
decided that he'd grant an interview.
During the interview, we discussed Satanism as being an
elitist religion and the history of the CoS. While he
was late, I did interview him for about an hour and
took calls from the audience. Rex did not liken the CoS
to a Fascist organization on the air, but he made
reference to it off air. Several of the people there
were rather taken aback (like myself with a Jewish
background). So, I don't have it on tape but several of
my co-workers were a bit shocked. He backpeddled a bit
saying that the whole Fascism thing was part of the
"Satanic Aesthetic," and not necessarily Anti-Semitic
or racist (because Anton was Jewish).
But again, this is what the CoS spokesmen do when
someone confronts them. Hey, it's a free country, when
someone asks me about my politics I'm upfront about my
leftist stance. Just like Boyd Rice and Michael
Monihan, Rex will say he's a fan of Fascism in private,
but backpeddles on the stance in public.
Regards,
Harry [no explanation for why 'James Jordan' signs "Harry"]

what is the *current* status of these three individuals
with respect to the Church of Satan? this is very old info
and could well pre-date whatever 'purges' may have taken place.

<skipping all kinds of things about Tani&Co and the "dark
doctrines" -- fairly irrelevant to their point being made;
the intention seems to be that there is fabrication going
on as to the "roots" of their religion(s); since this is
commonplace in religion, I ignore it here in favour of
data on fascism, my original interests>

the next supposed horror is

Blanche Barton's Statements

and specifically her

...article and a ritual against Wiccans [!!!]

sub-page is actually AMUSING! and contains some valuable
information and references, considering her position.

-------------------------------------------------------

and finally something summing up many of the picayune
religious squabbles represented here is

Ole Wolf Demands a Refund
...In this letter to Blanche Barton, Ole Wolf demands a
refund of the $100 that was thus wrongly charged.

here was his letter, which is interesting from the
perspective of the history of the Church of Satan and
its relation to Tani&Co:

sub-page
--------------------------------
Ole Wolf Demans[sic] a Refund

<snip irrelevant address information>

Thank you for your letter regarding your termination of
my membership of the C/S.
I would like to draw your attention to the following
Firstly, Peter Gilmore states specifically on the
official C/S Web site, in A Map for the Misdirected,
PG| The Church of Satan has always looked for knowledge to
PG| science, both Western and the "hidden sciences" of the
PG| East, much of which is encoded in what are called the
PG| "Dark Doctrines." We call this "Undefiled Wisdom," and
PG| this is the ever-deepening understanding of the nature
PG| of the beast-called-Man and the Universe in which he
PG| exists. We don't accept faith or mysticism. We demand
PG| bedrock knowledge--Understanding--which can come from
PG| outward research and observation as well as carnal
PG| intuition.
Secondly, you explained in The Cloven Hoof, issue 128,
C$ Our philosophy can be traced directly back to the
C$ Pythagoreans (not only in their reverence for
C$ mathematics and angles and their correlation with
C$ musical harmony, but in their blending of the rational
C$ with the metaphorical) and the Epicureans, and later
C$ directly through the Alchemists (who were the
C$ scientists of their day), and down through all those
C$ heretics, kooks and iconoclasts who pushed the envelope
C$ of what we accept as fact.
Similar statements have been presented to me by C/S
administrators Peggy Nadramia and Peter Gilmore, who
have continuously supported my views regarding the dark
doctrines since I first encountered these people on the
Internet in 1996.

well argued.

However, during the "Underground Panther" cult abuse
accusations in late 1999, Peter Gilmore explained the
dynamics of the supportive "form" emails that the C/S
administration issues to prospective members of the
C/S. Peter Gilmore's explanation revealed that the C/S
attempts to coerce people into joining the C/S by
passing the message to the prospective member that they
are on a track that should lead to a C/S membership. In
addition, the C/S administration sends requests to C/S
members that they harass people that disagree with the
C/S, as made clear in an email from Peter Gilmore of
5/3/1999. The C/S actively helps its members harass
others by passing on membership and personal
information about those to be harassed, as can be
testified by other emails from Peter Gilmore and/or
Peggy Nadramia that I have received. (I will provide
proof of my claims if I need to pursue the situation,

presumably he refers here to the 'Waffen SS' letter from
HP Gilmore and the above-quoted email from HPs Nadramia.

but for now I am simply listing facts that you are
already well aware of, assuming that your "Council of
Nine" has not neglected to pass certain of its policies
on to you.)
Your letter to Hr. Vad terminating his membership makes
it abundantly clear that both Peter Gilmore's and your
own statements quoted above are falsifications of the
C/S philosophy, and that the C/S does not derive its
roots from anyone but Anton LaVey; yet it was on Peter
Gilmore's and your original claims that I joined the C/S.
The methods employed by the C/S quoted above are
commonly known as a sham, as fraud.

not uncommon in most religions, from what I can tell.

Since I have thus joined the C/S as a result of
deliberately falsified information from the C/S
administration, my membership fee of USD 100.00 was
unjustly charged. Please reimburse my membership fee
immediately by sending a bank-issued check of USD
(Address withheld.)
Best regards,
(Signed)
Ole Wolf

---------------------------------------------------

so was he ever refunded the $100?

<snip more squabbling irrelevant to my interests>

thanks for the information, Tani.

after returning to town I may review other more substantive
information from about Satanism from the 'Satanic Reds' site.

END

[Tani Jantsang ©]

Post by SOD of the CoE!
50041212 viii om Hail Satan!
these two articles suffice for archival of 'The CoS Files'
information and what little information they contain as
regards Satanism and its continuing sociological study.
the rest seem primarily of the character of chatlogs and
missives that are tedious and have the character of a good
number of other religious squabbles I've occasionally
encountered due to a lack of understanding as to how
churches and authority tend to work within them.
==========
Article 2
==========
the rest of "The CoS Files"
---------------------------
the bulk of which deal with online squabbles and a great
deal of second-hand, third-hand, and Tani-originating info

There you go again. NOT Tani-originating. Do you think DeBoo is part of
Tani & Co? He was the FIRST to attack this trend. He was then singled out
as the PERSON whose behavior is summarized in "Sychophants Unite" which
PREDATES all of this. Clear your head out.

Post by SOD of the CoE!
that have little to no bearing on fascistic slants to the
CoS and more to do with Tani&Co's interest in continued
struggle and slamming the CoS as has been commented upon
within some of the newsgroup to which this is helpfully
crossposted.

That is a sure spin, Tyagi. The FIRST to attack fascism was DeBoo - long
before my time. The second to attack it was Egan and his people. The next
to attack it from personal experience was TIM Stewart Epperhart - and then
I got involved in helping him GET ESSAYS FOR his project.

Post by SOD of the CoE!
so onward....
-------------------------------------------------------
<skipping many useless online chatlogs and missives
displaying a continued INability to separate
internet life from the ordinary, legal world>

On the CoS and Its Policies

<the sub-page is NOT convincing that it actively recruits,
skipping to>

CoS Divulges Personal Membership Information
Peggy sent the following email to people engaged in a
flame war with Max Barrons on alt.satanism. Would
anyone want to send in the active affiliation
questionnaire with personal information knowing that
the information would be used like this?
Note also that Peggy uses the information from her
Black Flame subscription information.
CC: Subj: Newsflash?
Just found out via my periodic cruise of the Base of
Set that Don Webb is now a Magus due to his
"Re-Utterance of the Word Xeper" and is the High Priest
of Set.
FYI: Maxwell S. Barrons, PO Box 836631, Richardson, TX
75083-6631, is a subscriber to TBF and joined the CoS
last November -- however, he never filled out his
Active Membership application.
<snip the rest>

so having neglected to fill out this "Active Membership
application", does this mean that the person wasn't even
a member, and therefore the information shared wasn't
about their roster? he "joined the CoS". what's the story?
<skipping faceless allegations to>

Fascism and Nazism
The CoS may not be a fascist/Nazi organization,
according to official policy. However, one notes that
several administrators and highest-ranking officials in
the CoS are just that. Boyd Rice, Jeff Nagy, and Rex
Church are examples of officials that were given titles
as Magisters and who are notably fascist.

skipping the first two, who don't have text, only pictures,
the last (Rex Church) has an interview about him with a man
named James Jordan (pseud. 'Harry Lime' apparently), who

Rex Church
From: "James Jordan" [apparently aka Harry Lime]
To: "People's Commissar" [aka Tani Jantsang]
Date: Wed, 13 Dec 2000 11:56:04 -0800
Subject: Rex Church info
Here's the info on Rex Church, now Magister in the CoS.
At the time I interviewed him, back in 1993, he was a
Priest. I worked at the radio station KVAN in
Vancouver, Washington. I don't remember the exact date
of the interview, but I do recall that it was in 1993.
The purpose of the interview was to discuss the CoS and
its presence here in Portland, Oregon. Billy Graham had
been here recently, and I thought I'd give the "devil
his due" with the opposing side. Since I was an
acquaintence of Blanche's through an ex-finacee, Rex
decided that he'd grant an interview.
During the interview, we discussed Satanism as being an
elitist religion and the history of the CoS. While he
was late, I did interview him for about an hour and
took calls from the audience. Rex did not liken the CoS
to a Fascist organization on the air, but he made
reference to it off air. Several of the people there
were rather taken aback (like myself with a Jewish
background). So, I don't have it on tape but several of
my co-workers were a bit shocked. He backpeddled a bit
saying that the whole Fascism thing was part of the
"Satanic Aesthetic," and not necessarily Anti-Semitic
or racist (because Anton was Jewish).
But again, this is what the CoS spokesmen do when
someone confronts them. Hey, it's a free country, when
someone asks me about my politics I'm upfront about my
leftist stance. Just like Boyd Rice and Michael
Monihan, Rex will say he's a fan of Fascism in private,
but backpeddles on the stance in public.
Regards,
Harry [no explanation for why 'James Jordan' signs "Harry"]

James Jordan - harrylimetv !!

Post by SOD of the CoE!
what is the *current* status of these three individuals
with respect to the Church of Satan? this is very old info
and could well pre-date whatever 'purges' may have taken place.
<skipping all kinds of things about Tani&Co and the "dark
doctrines" -- fairly irrelevant to their point being made;
the intention seems to be that there is fabrication going
on as to the "roots" of their religion(s); since this is
commonplace in religion, I ignore it here in favour of
data on fascism, my original interests>
the next supposed horror is

Blanche Barton's Statements

and specifically her

...article and a ritual against Wiccans [!!!]

sub-page is actually AMUSING! and contains some valuable
information and references, considering her position.
-------------------------------------------------------
and finally something summing up many of the picayune
religious squabbles represented here is

Ole Wolf Demands a Refund
...In this letter to Blanche Barton, Ole Wolf demands a
refund of the $100 that was thus wrongly charged.

here was his letter, which is interesting from the
perspective of the history of the Church of Satan and

UHm, Ole Wolf is co-founder of the Satansk Forum. He is not "tani and
company" at all.

Post by SOD of the CoE!
sub-page
--------------------------------
Ole Wolf Demans[sic] a Refund
<snip irrelevant address information>

Thank you for your letter regarding your termination of
my membership of the C/S.
I would like to draw your attention to the following
Firstly, Peter Gilmore states specifically on the
official C/S Web site, in A Map for the Misdirected,
PG| The Church of Satan has always looked for knowledge to
PG| science, both Western and the "hidden sciences" of the
PG| East, much of which is encoded in what are called the
PG| "Dark Doctrines." We call this "Undefiled Wisdom," and
PG| this is the ever-deepening understanding of the nature
PG| of the beast-called-Man and the Universe in which he
PG| exists. We don't accept faith or mysticism. We demand
PG| bedrock knowledge--Understanding--which can come from
PG| outward research and observation as well as carnal
PG| intuition.
Secondly, you explained in The Cloven Hoof, issue 128,
C$ Our philosophy can be traced directly back to the
C$ Pythagoreans (not only in their reverence for
C$ mathematics and angles and their correlation with
C$ musical harmony, but in their blending of the rational
C$ with the metaphorical) and the Epicureans, and later
C$ directly through the Alchemists (who were the
C$ scientists of their day), and down through all those
C$ heretics, kooks and iconoclasts who pushed the envelope
C$ of what we accept as fact.
Similar statements have been presented to me by C/S
administrators Peggy Nadramia and Peter Gilmore, who
have continuously supported my views regarding the dark
doctrines since I first encountered these people on the
Internet in 1996.

well argued.

However, during the "Underground Panther" cult abuse
accusations in late 1999, Peter Gilmore explained the
dynamics of the supportive "form" emails that the C/S
administration issues to prospective members of the
C/S. Peter Gilmore's explanation revealed that the C/S
attempts to coerce people into joining the C/S by
passing the message to the prospective member that they
are on a track that should lead to a C/S membership. In
addition, the C/S administration sends requests to C/S
members that they harass people that disagree with the
C/S, as made clear in an email from Peter Gilmore of
5/3/1999. The C/S actively helps its members harass
others by passing on membership and personal
information about those to be harassed, as can be
testified by other emails from Peter Gilmore and/or
Peggy Nadramia that I have received. (I will provide
proof of my claims if I need to pursue the situation,

presumably he refers here to the 'Waffen SS' letter from
HP Gilmore and the above-quoted email from HPs Nadramia.

but for now I am simply listing facts that you are
already well aware of, assuming that your "Council of
Nine" has not neglected to pass certain of its policies
on to you.)
Your letter to Hr. Vad terminating his membership makes
it abundantly clear that both Peter Gilmore's and your
own statements quoted above are falsifications of the
C/S philosophy, and that the C/S does not derive its
roots from anyone but Anton LaVey; yet it was on Peter
Gilmore's and your original claims that I joined the C/S.
The methods employed by the C/S quoted above are
commonly known as a sham, as fraud.

not uncommon in most religions, from what I can tell.

Since I have thus joined the C/S as a result of
deliberately falsified information from the C/S
administration, my membership fee of USD 100.00 was
unjustly charged. Please reimburse my membership fee
immediately by sending a bank-issued check of USD
(Address withheld.)
Best regards,
(Signed)
Ole Wolf

---------------------------------------------------
so was he ever refunded the $100?

NO.

Post by SOD of the CoE!
<snip more squabbling irrelevant to my interests>
thanks for the information, Tani.
after returning to town I may review other more substantive
information from about Satanism from the 'Satanic Reds' site.

Yah, but get who said what straight, don't make me bigger than life in this
fascism issue. DeBoo first - BIG timel. Next Egan. Next Tim from personal
experiences. I helped Tim. SR was up there LONG before I was online and
LONG before I ever heard of Tim's project. Tim had that going about a few
months before he asked me and others that were present for essays for it.

Post by SOD of the CoE!
END

[SOD of the CoE]

50041215 viii om Hail Satan!

bobo:
#> the rest of "The CoS Files"
#> ---------------------------

afternotes.

"Tani Jantsang ©" <***@SPAMpost.com>:
# ...The FIRST to attack fascism was DeBoo - long
# before my time. The second to attack it was Egan and his people.
# The next to attack it from personal experience was
# TIM Stewart Epperhart - and then I got involved in
# helping him GET ESSAYS FOR his project.

then Tani&Co sabotaged his anti-fascism compilation, it seems,
by first editing his material (Casey) and then adding posts
or essays he didn't want in it and posting it to usenet.

<snip>

#># Ole Wolf Demands a Refund
#>#
#># ...In this letter to Blanche Barton, Ole Wolf demands a
#># refund of the $100 that was thus wrongly charged.
#>
#> here was his letter, which is interesting from the
#> perspective of the history of the Church of Satan and
#> its relation to Tani&Co:
#
# ...Ole Wolf is co-founder of the Satansk Forum....

thanks.

#> sub-page
#> --------------------------------
#> Ole Wolf Demans[sic] a Refund

#>> Dear Blanche Barton:

<snip>

#># Since I have thus joined the C/S as a result of
#># deliberately falsified information from the C/S
#># administration, my membership fee of USD 100.00 was
#># unjustly charged. Please reimburse my membership fee
#># immediately by sending a bank-issued check of USD
#># 100.00 to:

#># Ole Wolf
#> ---------------------------------------------------
#>
#> so was he ever refunded the $100?

# NO.

feh, his reasoning was very good. it must be nonrefundable.

# Yah, but get who said what straight, don't make me bigger than life in this
# fascism issue. DeBoo first - BIG timel. Next Egan. Next Tim from personal
# experiences. I helped Tim. SR was up there LONG before I was online and
# LONG before I ever heard of Tim's project. Tim had that going about a few
# months before he asked me and others that were present for essays for it.

so noted, blessed beast!

boboroshi at-sign satanservice.org: Satanic Outreach Director
Church of Euthanasia: http://www.churchofeuthanasia.org/
TOKUS WEBLINKS: http://dmoz.org/Bookmarks/B/boboroshi/
Ninth Scholar's Library (Satanism Archive): http://www.satanservice.org/

[Tani Jantsang ©]

Post by SOD of the CoE
50041215 viii om Hail Satan!
#> the rest of "The CoS Files"
#> ---------------------------
afternotes.
# ...The FIRST to attack fascism was DeBoo - long
# before my time. The second to attack it was Egan and his people.
# The next to attack it from personal experience was
# TIM Stewart Epperhart - and then I got involved in
# helping him GET ESSAYS FOR his project.
then Tani&Co sabotaged his anti-fascism compilation, it seems,
by first editing his material (Casey) and then adding posts
or essays he didn't want in it and posting it to usenet.

You are a liar, or extremely confused.

THIS is what Tim wrote.
QUOTE
STEWART'S INTRODUCTION - PROJECT ONE

When I first heard of the ideal of fascism being satanic I questioned the
reason. What was to become of these fascist Satanists? So there I declared I
would find out other peoples opinions on the subject and somewhere in
between I would form my own. Since the Project itself consists of E mails
submitted to me, for the Project, its sole intent is to work like a "message
board" of essays which the applicant merely states their opinions or facts.
There indeed is difference between both opinion and fact and my motives
behind Project one was to separate the two from each other when embarking
upon this view. Although constructing something of the sort would be hard to
keep the differing views balanced in debate; I set out to give a fair trial
on the matter, and yes, by all means I am still taking in applicants for the
project. If the Project is viewed as being "one sided" I cannot be to blame
for this, and with this known I cannot be held responsible if I did try.

I questioned the integrity of using the swastika as a Satanic symbol: Should
we be seeing Satanists run around in white robes burning crosses on door
steps because there is "power" in doing this, or using any KKK imagery in
Satanism? After all, the KKK is controversial is it not? The same token for
Nazi symbol, the swastika: How many people died in World War II: over
5,860,000 forgotten? These numbers are nauseating to think a self proclaimed
Satanist would align themselves with the nazis, who single handedly picked
out what they referred to as "the others" (keeping in mind that Satan
translate to "The other, the adversary") Since that it is common knowledge
that the Jewish we're not the only ones held in concentration camps.

So before reading any further I'd like you to ponder the same question I
have for some time: Is Fascism satanic? So, until next time.

Lets Make History.
Timony Epperhart

Wolf At Hart

UNQUOE

That is what he wrote. He oh man, how much more clear this be. I just
POSTED the essays HE COLLECTED - it was much much later that the SR just
went and got a WHOLE LOT OF OTHER essays - including pro fascist ones. OK?

I posted what he had up there on his own . Gilmore read what he had up there
on HIS site. Gilmore complained about THAT. WHY?

Tyagi, stop trying to rewrite history or find logical explanations or BLAME
someone.

He asked for essays on Ventrue's message board - got nothing, got bitched
at, got threatened. He asked for essays or at least posted a first draft of
what I just put on here. No responses. He asked people in my chatroom for
essays. HE GOT THEM. He asked me to get him MORE - he wanted to make it
objective. I said I could get pro fascist ones - they were on websites. He
didn't want that but told me to not let on that he didn't want anything PRO.
Ok. Fine. I got a heap of others for him and he liked them. But what
Gilmore saw are the essays I POSTED on here - plus this here thing I just
pasted above - his introduction. He wrote this other LONG winded headache
producing thing and he agreed, it didn't really have anything to do with his
fascist project. OK? People got a headache even trying to figure out what
he was saying on that one. But at any rate he GOT essays because I asked
people to WRITE some. Some of those essays I just posted on here are by
current COS members - such as Ben.

How dare you just go inventing shit like that, Tyagi? You are a LIAR.

What we finally got up on our SR site - he looked at it and was extremely
pleased - and glad that we were "brave enough" to PUT IT THERE. Now yuou go
explain that, Tyagi. BRAVE? WHY would anyone object to what he was doing?
WHY?

I POSTED the ess.......

You are a black hole.

Post by SOD of the CoE

Post by SOD of the CoE
<snip>

snip is right.

[Kori Houghton]

Tani Jantsang © wrote:

SNIP!!!

Post by Tani Jantsang ©
That is what he wrote. He oh man, how much more clear this be. I just
POSTED the essays HE COLLECTED - it was much much later that the SR just
went and got a WHOLE LOT OF OTHER essays - including pro fascist ones. OK?
I posted what he had up there on his own . Gilmore read what he had up there
on HIS site. Gilmore complained about THAT. WHY?

Duh? Bobo answered the question already! What's your major
malfunction, Tani? You got ADD or something? LMAO, and LMAO!

Post by Tani Jantsang ©
Tyagi, stop trying to rewrite history or find logical explanations or BLAME
someone.

You're telling Bobo to stop "find[ing] logical explanations"? Say
what? He should not let Peter Gilmore's email mean what Peter Gilmore
actually wrote? That is k00ky!

Post by Tani Jantsang ©
He asked for essays on Ventrue's message board - got nothing, got bitched
at, got threatened.

By COS members that understood the difference in POV between a Satanist
and a member of the dull-witted herd of sheep.

Post by Tani Jantsang ©
He asked for essays or at least posted a first draft of
what I just put on here. No responses.

I wonder why?

Post by Tani Jantsang ©
He asked people in my chatroom for
essays. HE GOT THEM.

You betcha!

Post by Tani Jantsang ©
He asked me to get him MORE - he wanted to make it
objective. I said I could get pro fascist ones - they were on

websites. He

Post by Tani Jantsang ©
didn't want that but told me to not let on that he didn't want

anything PRO.

Oh, yeah! Tani luvs secrets!

Post by Tani Jantsang ©
Ok. Fine.

Yup.

Post by Tani Jantsang ©
I got a heap of others for him and he liked them. But what
Gilmore saw are the essays I POSTED on here - plus this here thing I just
pasted above - his introduction. He wrote this other LONG winded headache
producing thing and he agreed, it didn't really have anything to do with his
fascist project. OK? People got a headache even trying to figure out what
he was saying on that one. But at any rate he GOT essays because I asked
people to WRITE some. Some of those essays I just posted on here are by
current COS members - such as Ben.
How dare you just go inventing shit like that, Tyagi? You are a LIAR.

No. But you are a dumbass.

Post by Tani Jantsang ©
What we finally got up on our SR site - he looked at it and was extremely
pleased - and glad that we were "brave enough" to PUT IT THERE.

Brave, as in having no fear of being openly laughed at for stupidity.
Obviously, he realized the meaning of "brave" in the context of Tani&co
and changed his mind about the project.

Post by Tani Jantsang ©
Now yuou go
explain that, Tyagi. BRAVE? WHY would anyone object to what he was doing?
WHY?

Bobo already answered, several times. IMO, you don't ***get it***
because you will publish anything if it gets you ***attention***.
Whether it's sincere or not, true or not, harmful or not.

Post by Tani Jantsang ©
I POSTED the ess.......
You are a black hole.

You are a netk00k who resorts very quickly to personal attacks and
name-calling when someone doesn't see things your way.

Post by Tani Jantsang ©

Post by SOD of the CoE
<snip>

snip is right.

You sound annoyed, Tani. How about some Kalua?

Luv,
Kori

[Tani Jantsang ©]

"Kori Houghton" <***@hotmail.com> wrote in message news:***@c13g2000cwb.googlegroups.com...

Tani Jantsang © wrote:

SNIP!!!

Post by Tani Jantsang ©
That is what he wrote. He oh man, how much more clear this be. I just
POSTED the essays HE COLLECTED - it was much much later that the SR just
went and got a WHOLE LOT OF OTHER essays - including pro fascist ones. OK?
I posted what he had up there on his own . Gilmore read what he had up there
on HIS site. Gilmore complained about THAT. WHY?
h? Bobo answered the question already! What's your major
malfunction, Tani? You got ADD or something? LMAO, and LMAO!

Hey Bobo did not read the ESSAYS Tim had up there - that Peter read and
emailed him about. OK? It's obvious he didn't read them.

lanations"? Say
what? He should not let Peter Gilmore's email mean what Peter Gilmore
actually wrote? That is k00ky!

T - oh, Peter wrote what he wrote - and i posted an unedited email of the
two of them talking. But WHAT on those essays Tim had, is PG talking about?
Ben is a CURRENT Cos member - HIS ESSAY was on Tim's site - and it's still
on OUR site. Bobo did NOT apparently read any of that He's just being his
same old lazy self about it. (he has problems reading block text - personal
letter from Bobo to me ages ago).

Post by Tani Jantsang ©
He asked for essays on Ventrue's message board - got nothing, got bitched
at, got threatened.

By COS members that understood the difference in POV between a Satanist
and a member of the dull-witted herd of sheep.

T - Sorry Kori - he got abused by people for asking for essays. You weren't
there. I posted the logs Tim did save, and the letter he wrote to Peggy
about it! He got abused by dull witted herds of sheep. Namely: Turner,
the Nagys, the Gidneys, and the Davises - THEY bothered him along with a few
others.

Post by Tani Jantsang ©
He asked for essays or at least posted a first draft of
what I just put on here. No responses.
I wonder why?

Do you wonder why that gang signed their shit HEIL Satan, too? LMAO. You
moron.

snip desperate attempts to suckup along.

Post by Tani Jantsang ©
What we finally got up on our SR site - he looked at it and was extremely
pleased - and glad that we were "brave enough" to PUT IT THERE.

Brave, as in having no fear of being openly laughed at for stupidity.
Obviously, he realized the meaning of "brave" in the context of Tani&co
and changed his mind about the project.

T - Ok suckup trying so hard to play along here, so then, we are going to
take it for granted that you believe Jeffrey deBoo is STUPID and should be
laughed at. His essay is on there, too. Well, the COSsers certainly came
to HATE Jeff DeBoo. I know why. You weren't there. heh, I was. But I
didn't give a fuck about it, either.

Post by Tani Jantsang ©
Now yuou go
explain that, Tyagi. BRAVE? WHY would anyone object to what he was doing?
WHY?
You are a netk00k who resorts very quickly to personal attacks and

name-calling when someone doesn't see things your way.

I personally attack people who can't read things in consecutive order.

1. Tim's intro (just found it, just posted it)
2. Tim's collection of essays and dialogue.
3. Tim's mail to Peggy and logs against him (the little what was saved)
4. THEN Peter's stupid email bitching Tim out and having hallucinations
about factions.

In that order, Kori. You know - Kennedy came first, then Johnson? 9/11
came first, THEN came the Patriot Act? You know?

[Kori Houghton]

Post by Tani Jantsang ©
Hey Bobo did not read the ESSAYS Tim had up there - that Peter read and
emailed him about. OK? It's obvious he didn't read them.

I read them. They don't say anything meaningful. The ones with the
k00ky sexual references and DDoc jargon were kind of funny.

Point being, if an individual is a an org member (say, COS) and that
org isn't Fascist, why the concern with Fascism in Satanism? It's
searching for the keyhole in a wall without a door.

Post by Tani Jantsang ©
T - oh, Peter wrote what he wrote - and i posted an unedited email of the
two of them talking. But WHAT on those essays Tim had, is PG talking about?
Ben is a CURRENT Cos member - HIS ESSAY was on Tim's site - and it's still
on OUR site. Bobo did NOT apparently read any of that He's just being his
same old lazy self about it. (he has problems reading block text - personal
letter from Bobo to me ages ago).

Perhaps Bobo found P.G.'s detailed statement in the email to Tim that
the COS isn't Fascist (and why) convincing. I did. The original
question was whether or not there was anything behind the claim that
COSatanism had anything to do with Fascism. It doesn't, per the email.
You don't have to read the essays to get that.

Post by Tani Jantsang ©

Post by Tani Jantsang ©
He asked for essays on Ventrue's message board - got nothing, got

bitched

Post by Tani Jantsang ©
at, got threatened.

By COS members that understood the difference in POV between a

Satanist

Post by Tani Jantsang ©
and a member of the dull-witted herd of sheep.
T - Sorry Kori - he got abused by people for asking for essays.

Yes, because he wanted people to help him find the keyhole in a wall
without a door.

Post by Tani Jantsang ©
You weren't
there. I posted the logs Tim did save, and the letter he wrote to Peggy

Turner,

Post by Tani Jantsang ©
the Nagys, the Gidneys, and the Davises - THEY bothered him along with a few
others.

You are calling these people "sheep" because you don't like them, and
that's your choice. He was rebuffed by those who saw further
implications to his project, and objected because they cared about the
COS -- which is ***their*** choice, whether you agree with that choice
or not. You said Tim was still in the COS? If so, he realized what
the objections were to the project after a while. It is possible for
that light to switch on, Tani. It's healthy to sometimes realize you
were wrong, and try a different approach.

Post by Tani Jantsang ©

Post by Tani Jantsang ©
He asked for essays or at least posted a first draft of
what I just put on here. No responses.
I wonder why?

Do you wonder why that gang signed their shit HEIL Satan, too? LMAO.

You

Post by Tani Jantsang ©
moron.

That's just sooo evil, Tani. I do believe I've read posts by you with
"88" on them and stuff. You know what that is? Pulling someone's
chain.

Post by Tani Jantsang ©
snip desperate attempts to suckup along.

Fuck you, too.

Post by Tani Jantsang ©

Post by Tani Jantsang ©
What we finally got up on our SR site - he looked at it and was

extremely

Post by Tani Jantsang ©
pleased - and glad that we were "brave enough" to PUT IT THERE.

Brave, as in having no fear of being openly laughed at for stupidity.
Obviously, he realized the meaning of "brave" in the context of Tani&co
and changed his mind about the project.
T - Ok suckup trying so hard to play along here, so then, we are going to
take it for granted that you believe Jeffrey deBoo is STUPID and should be
laughed at.

Was deBoo in COS?

Post by Tani Jantsang ©
His essay is on there, too. Well, the COSsers certainly came
to HATE Jeff DeBoo. I know why. You weren't there. heh, I was.

But I

Post by Tani Jantsang ©
didn't give a fuck about it, either.

Then why do you give multiple fucks about it now? Consider how far
gone fourth and fifth fucks must be if seconds are sloppy!

Post by Tani Jantsang ©

Post by Tani Jantsang ©
Now yuou go
explain that, Tyagi. BRAVE? WHY would anyone object to what he

was

Post by Tani Jantsang ©
doing?

Post by Tani Jantsang ©
WHY?
You are a netk00k who resorts very quickly to personal attacks and

name-calling when someone doesn't see things your way.
I personally attack people who can't read things in consecutive order.

You've been known to attack people because ***you*** didn't read
threads before flying off your handle. That's what happened between
us.

Post by Tani Jantsang ©
1. Tim's intro (just found it, just posted it)
2. Tim's collection of essays and dialogue.
3. Tim's mail to Peggy and logs against him (the little what was saved)
4. THEN Peter's stupid email bitching Tim out and having

hallucinations

Post by Tani Jantsang ©
about factions.

And after all that, Tim is still in COS. Therefore, you don't
understand Peter's email. That it wasn't "stupid" or "bitching". You
don't like the COS? Fine. I don't care much for them, either. So,
stop calling me a "suckup". At least I don't have ***handlers*** on a
private bcc list, like you do, you butt-smoocher.

Post by Tani Jantsang ©
In that order, Kori. You know - Kennedy came first, then Johnson?

9/11

Post by Tani Jantsang ©
came first, THEN came the Patriot Act? You know?

You put "Project One" on that level? You need to turn off your
computer and get out more!

Luv,
Kori

[Tani Jantsang ©]

Uh, see in

Post by Tani Jantsang ©
Hey Bobo did not read the ESSAYS Tim had up there - that Peter read and
emailed him about. OK? It's obvious he didn't read them.

Kori: I read them. They don't say anything meaningful. The ones with the
k00ky sexual references and DDoc jargon were kind of funny.

T - why don't you post properly so that > marks show up on your lines? I
don't think Bobo read the intro Tim had, or the question/answers he elicited
and what was POSTED here. That is what TIM had on his website. He was
angry, very very angry. He was glad we put them up there. He was SO angry
that he turned to Egan's Magister, a fellow gay person. Next he became that
person's lover. Next Les quit FCOS and joined SR. The last I heard, Tim
washed his hands of the COS and didn't care a thing about them. He WAS glad
we put his project, something HE worked so hard at and for so long, up on a
website since he couldn't afford to pay the person to continue his own
site - and he couldn't do html at all. That's about it. Tim was not saying
there was fascism in the COS per se - tho he DID run smack into it, Kori.
Who those people are can be seen in their own articles in TBF, hard core
print and published. You are trying to remake this whole thing in an image
that would make me look like the bad guy here - but that's just not the
case. The Gidneys were the first people up front that bitched at him - and
next the Davises kicked him out of their Satanic Combat Science thing.
Next, Nagy got on chat and bitched that the whole place used to have a
comfortable fascist feel to it - and he wanted it back. That IS what
happened. He never gave up on his project. There happens to be a lot
meaningful being said in ALL of the essays. You just don't want to see it.
So there is no reason to converse about it any longer with me.

Kori: Point being, if an individual is a an org member (say, COS) and that
org isn't Fascist, why the concern with Fascism in Satanism? It's
searching for the keyhole in a wall without a door.

Tani: Point being, why is Jeff DeBoo concerned about it? Is he dealing in
hallucinations or does he see what he's writing about clearly? He sees it -
clearly.

Post by Tani Jantsang ©
T - oh, Peter wrote what he wrote - and i posted an unedited email of the
two of them talking. But WHAT on those essays Tim had, is PG talking about?
Ben is a CURRENT Cos member - HIS ESSAY was on Tim's site - and it's still
on OUR site. Bobo did NOT apparently read any of that He's just being his
same old lazy self about it. (he has problems reading block text - personal
letter from Bobo to me ages ago).

Kori Perhaps Bobo found P.G.'s detailed statement in the email to Tim that
the COS isn't Fascist (and why) convincing. I did. The original
question was whether or not there was anything behind the claim that
COSatanism had anything to do with Fascism. It doesn't, per the email.
You don't have to read the essays to get that.

Tani: Tim wasn't asking if COS was fascist. He was asking IS FASCISM SATANIC
because too many orgs, and people IN the COS he knew quite well, were going
off on some fascist mystique or pertinence to fascism. Peggy herself wrote
a whole article about the people that tended to like fascism. She had to
write something - and it's clear that she wrote it to the many that were
complaining about it in their own org. Her words are very clear. Note that
she wrote that LONG before I was online and before I knew any of these
characters.

Post by Tani Jantsang ©

Post by Tani Jantsang ©
He asked for essays on Ventrue's message board - got nothing, got

bitched

Post by Tani Jantsang ©
at, got threatened.

By COS members that understood the difference in POV between a

Satanist

Post by Tani Jantsang ©
and a member of the dull-witted herd of sheep.
T - Sorry Kori - he got abused by people for asking for essays.

Kori: Yes, because he wanted people to help him find the keyhole in a wall
without a door.

Tani - that just is not what happened. Turner posted a pro fascist article.
That was the keyhole. Others liked it. More keyholes.

Post by Tani Jantsang ©
You weren't
there. I posted the logs Tim did save, and the letter he wrote to Peggy

Turner,

Post by Tani Jantsang ©
the Nagys, the Gidneys, and the Davises - THEY bothered him along with a few
others.

Kori: You are calling these people "sheep" because you don't like them,

Tani: No, I called them sheep when I first encountered them because they ARE
sheep, they are WAY too concerned with the whole hierarchy thing and always
were - way too concerned with having someone "high up" tell them what to do.
I found them revolting due to that.

Kori: and
that's your choice. He was rebuffed by those who saw further
implications to his project, and objected because they cared about the
COS -- which is ***their*** choice, whether you agree with that choice
or not.

Tani: you weren't there. This is your attempt to white wash what actually
happened. Since you weren't there, since you yourself did not speak TO THE
FASCISTS (as if YOU ARE ALSO ONE AGREEING WITH THEM) you don't know what you
are talking about.

Kori: You said Tim was still in the COS? If so, he realized what
the objections were to the project after a while.

Tani - see above. Tim was still in it, but angry as hell, angry enough to
go to Egan's Magister about it. He was PISSED.

Kori: It is possible for
that light to switch on, Tani. It's healthy to sometimes realize you
were wrong, and try a different approach.

Tani - uh, sorry, you weren't there. Do you think that got put up on the SR
without Tim's knowledge? His own dialogue is up there and he WANTED it
there.

Post by Tani Jantsang ©
T - Ok suckup trying so hard to play along here, so then, we are going to
take it for granted that you believe Jeffrey deBoo is STUPID and should be
laughed at.

Kori: Was deBoo in COS?

Tani: nope, DeBoo was not in the COS but for a long time, TBF their official
mag featured one article by DeBoo here or there - in the middle of a heap of
articles by people writing all this nicey nice about Hitler and all things
Third Reich. Do you think people didn't notice that? They did.

Post by Tani Jantsang ©
His essay is on there, too. Well, the COSsers certainly came
to HATE Jeff DeBoo. I know why. You weren't there. heh, I was.

But I

Post by Tani Jantsang ©
didn't give a fuck about it, either.

Kori: Then why do you give multiple fucks about it now? Consider how far
gone fourth and fifth fucks must be if seconds are sloppy!

Tani - I don't. Bobo asked about it - only to supremely confuse himself
about the whole affair. But then, Bobo IS a confused person - for example

He believes satan is wild nature.
Wild nature = AMORAL biology - that IS the definition of it.
He admits he knows nothing about biology.
Ergo, he knows nothing about Satan - wild nature.

Then he asked me what sociobiology has to do with Satanism. DUUHHHHHHHHH.
Trying to explain the NATURE of H.sapiens to the man, and he snips it
becuase he can't understand it. DUHHHHH. I have use for such people, Kori?
Uh, NO.

Post by Tani Jantsang ©
I personally attack people who can't read things in consecutive order.

Kori: You've been known to attack people because ***you*** didn't read
threads before flying off your handle. That's what happened between
us.

Tani: wrong. You attacked me quite a few times on alt.satanism for no
apparent reason - at the time you turned AGAINST the TOS. You did that.
And that was IT. I emailed you and asked you if you really made the post -
or if someone spoofed your name and email. But you did that. You threw a
pebble, albeit a few SMALL pebbles. And so that is IT.

Post by Tani Jantsang ©
1. Tim's intro (just found it, just posted it)
2. Tim's collection of essays and dialogue.
3. Tim's mail to Peggy and logs against him (the little what was saved)
4. THEN Peter's stupid email bitching Tim out and having

hallucinations

Post by Tani Jantsang ©
about factions.

Kori: And after all that, Tim is still in COS.

Tani: - that was a LONG time ago he was still in it after he got bitched
out. He NEXT (keep up, Kori) went to Les Masters - became lovers with Les
Masters. I doubt he's in the COS NOW. This shit happened around 2000.
This is 2004. The problem with Bobo and you is that you don't see things in
consequtive order or realize that this happened FOUR YEARS AGO - and what is
"the now" is a whole other thing. Back then, Les was Egan's Magister. NOW,
Les is in SR. Back then Tim was in COS and pissed as hell after he got
done being hurt. He THEN became Les's lover (they are gay).

Tim's project had nothing to do with the other matter where I
trashed/exposed their hack logs, 'let's rip them off" emails, and other
things - and then personally mailed it to the person I started to back then
call "blithering barton." Why did I call her blithering Barton?

1. Ygraine was living down in Port Saint Lucy. She somehow got quite a few
people to want to join the COS - about 12 of them. They were all ready to
PAY the $100. Next they ran into Schlesinger and the predictable happaned.
He bullied them. Ygraine's take on that was that $1200 that could have gone
into Barton's COS was forever LOST. Ygraine and her husband were invited to
a party by Peggy, who insisted that they fly to NYC from Florida to attend.
When they got there, they went to a hotel. Last minute, Peggy calls Ygraine
up and says not to attend the party because "Andre is a mess." What the
fuck? At another party, Andre personally mistreated her husband and some
guy that's a big writer (forgot name). This and other matters forced
Ygraine to compile a file on Schlesinger's doings and she went straight to
Barton about it - about the lost money, lost members, and lousy treatment.
Barton handed the matter over to Peggy to deal with Ygraine almost lost
her "meticulously worked-on friendship" with Peggy over that. Poor Peggy,
the word was all over, she is just blinded by that Andre guy, she doesn't
realize what he's like. Is that so? Next: I told Peggy. Peggy said get
proof. Heh heh heh - I DID. And that IS the problem Kori. I GOT the proof
and how I did it was the way a god damend cointelpro person might do it. I
got it alright, I showed it all to her, I showed it all to JEFF GERBER and
then I mailed it all to Barton. They didnt like what I managed to dig up,
Kori- and they certainly didn't like it that I told them where to go
(trashed them) and said they no longer had permission to use a SINGLE THING
from us. Now, you see, they were using it and using it for YEARS, every
word of it. Did I use their stuff? NOT a word of it. That's it. So heh,
taking a Mag title I never used away from me is like taking fake money away
from you. It's nothing. Taking our stuff away from them was taking away
something they definitely DID use (and got money from!). Bottom line.

Now, I'm going to take away something from you, nyaa nyaa. I'm gonna take
away that Chinese unicycle, you know, the one you never had and would have
no use for Nyaa nyaa.

You aren't stupid. You understand me quite clearly here. You also
understand what published written proof is. You just want to nag at me.

Have a nice day.

[SOD of the CoE]

50041217 viii om Hail Satan!

"Tani Jantsang ©" <***@SPAMpost.com>:
"Kori Houghton" <***@hotmail.com>:
Tani Jantsang ©:
#> Hey Bobo did not read the ESSAYS Tim had up there - that
#> Peter read and emailed him about. OK? It's obvious he
#> didn't read them.

B - lots of things are "obvious" to you that aren't to me.

Kori: I read them. They don't say anything meaningful. The ones with the
k00ky sexual references and DDoc jargon were kind of funny.

T - why don't you post properly so that > marks show up on your lines? I

B - yeah, you trying to copy someone's posting styule or soemthing? LMAO!!

T - don't think Bobo read the intro Tim had, or the question/answers he elicited
and what was POSTED here. That is what TIM had on his website. He was
angry, very very angry. He was glad we put them up there. He was SO angry
that he turned to Egan's Magister, a fellow gay person. Next he became that
person's lover. Next Les quit FCOS and joined SR. The last I heard, Tim
washed his hands of the COS and didn't care a thing about them. He WAS glad
we put his project, something HE worked so hard at and for so long, up on a
website since he couldn't afford to pay the person to continue his own
site - and he couldn't do html at all. That's about it. Tim was not saying
there was fascism in the COS per se - tho he DID run smack into it, Kori.
Who those people are can be seen in their own articles in TBF, hard core
print and published. You are trying to remake this whole thing in an image
that would make me look like the bad guy here - but that's just not the case.

B - there's a certain negative reflection on Tani&Co which Tim abandoned.

T - The Gidneys were the first people up front that bitched at him - and
next the Davises kicked him out of their Satanic Combat Science thing.
Next, Nagy got on chat and bitched that the whole place used to have a
comfortable fascist feel to it - and he wanted it back. That IS what
happened. He never gave up on his project. There happens to be a lot
meaningful being said in ALL of the essays. You just don't want to see it.
So there is no reason to converse about it any longer with me.

B - this means you're not going to post about it any longer? difficult
to believe, honestly. it does seem like a bone you will never put down.
perhaps there is some reason to believe Mr. Lime's contention that it
is a substitute bone for the title you've had stripped away.

Kori: Point being, if an individual is a an org member (say, COS) and that
org isn't Fascist, why the concern with Fascism in Satanism? It's
searching for the keyhole in a wall without a door.

Tani: Point being, why is Jeff DeBoo concerned about it? Is he dealing in
hallucinations or does he see what he's writing about clearly? He sees it -
clearly.

Post by Tani Jantsang ©
T - oh, Peter wrote what he wrote - and i posted an unedited email of the
two of them talking. But WHAT on those essays Tim had, is PG talking about?
Ben is a CURRENT Cos member - HIS ESSAY was on Tim's site - and it's still
on OUR site. Bobo did NOT apparently read any of that He's just being his
same old lazy self about it. (he has problems reading block text - personal
letter from Bobo to me ages ago).

Kori Perhaps Bobo found P.G.'s detailed statement in the email to Tim that
the COS isn't Fascist (and why) convincing. I did. The original
question was whether or not there was anything behind the claim that
COSatanism had anything to do with Fascism. It doesn't, per the email.
You don't have to read the essays to get that.

B - you are of course correct, Kori.

Tani: Tim wasn't asking if COS was fascist. He was asking IS FASCISM SATANIC
because too many orgs, and people IN the COS he knew quite well, were going
off on some fascist mystique or pertinence to fascism. Peggy herself wrote
a whole article about the people that tended to like fascism. She had to
write something - and it's clear that she wrote it to the many that were
complaining about it in their own org. Her words are very clear. Note that
she wrote that LONG before I was online and before I knew any of these
characters.

Post by Tani Jantsang ©

Post by Tani Jantsang ©
He asked for essays on Ventrue's message board - got nothing, got bitched
at, got threatened.

By COS members that understood the difference in POV between a Satanist
and a member of the dull-witted herd of sheep.
T - Sorry Kori - he got abused by people for asking for essays.

Kori: Yes, because he wanted people to help him find the keyhole in a wall
without a door.

Tani - that just is not what happened. Turner posted a pro fascist article.
That was the keyhole. Others liked it. More keyholes.

B - your reiterations don't really support you much, Tani. consider this
carefully. once admitting you'd lie, inform FBI and orgs about people and
feel comfortable pretending to be a spy in quasi-Stalinesque garb, what,
truly, is the rationale of believing what you maintain is true, the truth
of what you will "swear under oath" to, etc.?

Post by Tani Jantsang ©
You weren't
there. I posted the logs Tim did save, and the letter he wrote to Peggy
about it! He got abused by dull witted herds of sheep. Namely: Turner,
the Nagys, the Gidneys, and the Davises - THEY bothered him along with a few
others.

Kori: You are calling these people "sheep" because you don't like them,

Tani: No, I called them sheep when I first encountered them because they ARE
sheep, they are WAY too concerned with the whole hierarchy thing and always
were - way too concerned with having someone "high up" tell them what to do.
I found them revolting due to that.

B - right, it just so happens that she doesn't like sheep. ;>

Kori: and that's your choice. He was rebuffed by those who saw further
implications to his project, and objected because they cared about the
COS -- which is ***their*** choice, whether you agree with that choice
or not.

Tani: you weren't there. This is your attempt to white wash what actually
happened. Since you weren't there, since you yourself did not speak TO THE
FASCISTS (as if YOU ARE ALSO ONE AGREEING WITH THEM) you don't know what you
are talking about.

Kori: You said Tim was still in the COS? If so, he realized what
the objections were to the project after a while.

Tani - see above. Tim was still in it, but angry as hell, angry enough to
go to Egan's Magister about it. He was PISSED.

B - and confused (needed editing by Casey), and interested in spinning the
"survey" toward anti-fascism (requiring Tani to ignore his requests to leave
pro-fascism OUT), and frightened of HP Gilmore (according to Jacqueline
Davis who witnessed the fear when perceiving threat of dismembership because
of factionalizing with Tani&Co and Ole Wolf who said Tim claimed Tani
rewrote or amended the "survey"). hey, I think I'm getting a handle on this.
Tim was all over the map. must've been impressionable or young or something.

Kori: It is possible for
that light to switch on, Tani. It's healthy to sometimes realize you
were wrong, and try a different approach.

Tani - uh, sorry, you weren't there. Do you think that got put up on the SR
without Tim's knowledge? His own dialogue is up there and he WANTED it there.

B - good for Tim. sounds like you and Tim are still best of buddies.

Post by Tani Jantsang ©
T - Ok suckup trying so hard to play along here, so then, we are going to
take it for granted that you believe Jeffrey deBoo is STUPID and should be
laughed at.

Kori: Was deBoo in COS?

Tani: nope, DeBoo was not in the COS but for a long time, TBF their official
mag featured one article by DeBoo here or there - in the middle of a heap of
articles by people writing all this nicey nice about Hitler and all things
Third Reich. Do you think people didn't notice that? They did.

B - I recognized the intelligence and rationally-supportable positions
of JDeboo in "The Black Flame" which HP Nadrama generously sent my way,
subsequently contacted Brother Deboo and enjoyed reading all his material
on the subject of Satanism (anti-fascist, on similar principles expressed
by HP Gilmore in the discussion with Tim Stewart the changeable).

Post by Tani Jantsang ©
His essay is on there, too. Well, the COSsers certainly came
to HATE Jeff DeBoo. I know why. You weren't there. heh, I was. But I
didn't give a fuck about it, either.

Kori: Then why do you give multiple fucks about it now? Consider how far
gone fourth and fifth fucks must be if seconds are sloppy!

Tani - I don't.

B - but you give the impression of caring very much about it. this
impression has been remarked about to you directly often enough within
these threads. you may wish to run a check on your "care"-o-meter.

T - Bobo asked about it - only to supremely confuse himself
about the whole affair. But then, Bobo IS a confused person - for example

B - uh-oh, I *warned* you about trying to speak for me, Tani. you barely
are capable of retaining consistency about what YOU believe, but when it
comes to representing me you are very very BAD. please desist in this or
present quotes from me. this is exemplary as it constitutes your spin on
who you think that I am and what I think (incorrect in spots, recalibrate).

T - He believes satan is wild nature.

B - I recognize that what those who use the Bogey as such are plastering
across is wholly described by this characterization, yes.

T - Wild nature = AMORAL biology - that IS the definition of it.

B - fascinating. again, nothing that I've maintained. your contention.

T - He admits he knows nothing about biology.

B - quote? I said: history and politics, silly. shall I begin to trot out
your Stalinesque names now that you're pretending I said other things?
I have believed what you say that you don't actually think that we should
institute Stalin's WWII policies, why won't you believe that I don't think
I know very much about history and politics? as I also said, I like to
refer to people who have a better grounding in that field than I (same
as I do about biology, which I understand slightly better).

T - Ergo, he knows nothing about Satan - wild nature.

B - well argued, your premises, however, are flawed. having made little
contention about my overall knowledge of Satan (just that I have a blood
pact with what I understand that being to be), your assertions are flat.

T - Then he asked me what sociobiology has to do with Satanism. DUUHHHHHHHHH.

B - since you'd made the claim that they were integral in your Satanism, sure,
I usually like to let the person doing the asserting speak to their point(s).

T - Trying to explain the NATURE of H.sapiens to the man, and he snips it
becuase he can't understand it. DUHHHHH. I have use for such people, Kori?
Uh, NO.

B - as evidenced by the reams of responses and mailbox full (until I told you
I didn't want any more email from you about usenet items, thanks) which you
have spammed unnecessarily in weak support of your extreme contentions. that
others notice this also appears lost on you. as I said, it seems peculiar.

Post by Tani Jantsang ©
I personally attack people who can't read things in consecutive order.

Kori: You've been known to attack people because ***you*** didn't read
threads before flying off your handle. That's what happened between
us.

Tani: wrong. You attacked me quite a few times on alt.satanism for no
apparent reason - at the time you turned AGAINST the TOS. You did that.
And that was IT. I emailed you and asked you if you really made the post -
or if someone spoofed your name and email. But you did that. You threw a
pebble, albeit a few SMALL pebbles. And so that is IT.

Post by Tani Jantsang ©
1. Tim's intro (just found it, just posted it)
2. Tim's collection of essays and dialogue.
3. Tim's mail to Peggy and logs against him (the little what was saved)
4. THEN Peter's stupid email bitching Tim out and having

hallucinations

Post by Tani Jantsang ©
about factions.

Kori: And after all that, Tim is still in COS.

Tani: - that was a LONG time ago he was still in it after he got bitched
out. He NEXT (keep up, Kori) went to Les Masters - became lovers with Les
Masters. I doubt he's in the COS NOW. This shit happened around 2000.
This is 2004. The problem with Bobo and you is that you don't see things in
consequtive order or realize that this happened FOUR YEARS AGO - and what is
"the now" is a whole other thing. Back then, Les was Egan's Magister. NOW,
Les is in SR. Back then Tim was in COS and pissed as hell after he got
done being hurt. He THEN became Les's lover (they are gay).

B - what, is Tim's relationship with LMasters somehow problematic for
the CoS? they don't usually dismember do they? members for life unless
the idiots need to be separated from the Satanic Herd? or was LMasters
being in Tani&Co sufficient to *require* dismembering?

T - Tim's project had nothing to do with the other matter where I
trashed/exposed their hack logs, 'let's rip them off" emails, and other
things - and then personally mailed it to the person I started to back
then call "blithering barton." Why did I call her blithering Barton?

1. Ygraine was living down in Port Saint Lucy. She somehow got quite a few
people to want to join the COS - about 12 of them. They were all ready to
PAY the $100. Next they ran into Schlesinger and the predictable happaned.
He bullied them. Ygraine's take on that was that $1200 that could have gone
into Barton's COS was forever LOST. Ygraine and her husband were invited to
a party by Peggy, who insisted that they fly to NYC from Florida to attend.
When they got there, they went to a hotel. Last minute, Peggy calls Ygraine
up and says not to attend the party because "Andre is a mess." What the
fuck? At another party, Andre personally mistreated her husband and some
guy that's a big writer (forgot name). This and other matters forced
Ygraine to compile a file on Schlesinger's doings and she went straight to
Barton about it - about the lost money, lost members, and lousy treatment.
Barton handed the matter over to Peggy to deal with Ygraine almost lost
her "meticulously worked-on friendship" with Peggy over that. Poor Peggy,
the word was all over, she is just blinded by that Andre guy, she doesn't
realize what he's like. Is that so? Next: I told Peggy. Peggy said get
proof. Heh heh heh - I DID. And that IS the problem Kori. I GOT the proof
and how I did it was the way a god damend cointelpro person might do it. I
got it alright, I showed it all to her, I showed it all to JEFF GERBER and
then I mailed it all to Barton. They didnt like what I managed to dig up,
Kori- and they certainly didn't like it that I told them where to go
(trashed them) and said they no longer had permission to use a SINGLE THING
from us. Now, you see, they were using it and using it for YEARS, every
word of it. Did I use their stuff? NOT a word of it. That's it. So heh,
taking a Mag title I never used away from me is like taking fake money away
from you. It's nothing. Taking our stuff away from them was taking away
something they definitely DID use (and got money from!). Bottom line.

B - damn! you know all the dirt, thanks.

T - Now, I'm going to take away something from you, nyaa nyaa. I'm gonna take
away that Chinese unicycle, you know, the one you never had and would have
no use for Nyaa nyaa.

B - don't forget the fingertrap.

T - You aren't stupid. You understand me quite clearly here. You also
understand what published written proof is. You just want to nag at me.

Have a nice day.

B - thanks!

blessed beast!

boboroshi at-sign satanservice.org: Satanic Outreach Director
Church of Euthanasia: http://www.churchofeuthanasia.org/
TOKUS WEBLINKS: http://dmoz.org/Bookmarks/B/boboroshi/
Ninth Scholar's Library (Satanism Archive): http://www.satanservice.org/

[Tani Jantsang ©]

Post by SOD of the CoE
50041217 viii om Hail Satan!

One question Tyagi - DID YOU READ Tim's intro posted here, the essays Tim
got at the time were posted here, and THEN reread Gilmore's email UNEDITED,
also posted here? In that order? That is the order in which it actually
happaned. Tim's intro, his collected essays, THEN the email - and again, I
posted an UNedited one on there - only 2 people talking in it - Tim and
Gilmore.

Here is another point, Bobo - Phil Marsh also wrote an essay for Tim's
project - posted on here. Tim had that up on his site at the time. Phil's
still a Mag in the COS. So you adding up 2 plus 2 to get 5 is not working
out.

Post by SOD of the CoE
T - don't think Bobo read the intro Tim had, or the question/answers he elicited
and what was POSTED here. That is what TIM had on his website. He was
angry, very very angry. He was glad we put them up there. He was SO angry
that he turned to Egan's Magister, a fellow gay person. Next he became that
person's lover. Next Les quit FCOS and joined SR. The last I heard, Tim
washed his hands of the COS and didn't care a thing about them. He WAS glad
we put his project, something HE worked so hard at and for so long, up on a
website since he couldn't afford to pay the person to continue his own
site - and he couldn't do html at all. That's about it. Tim was not saying
there was fascism in the COS per se - tho he DID run smack into it, Kori.
Who those people are can be seen in their own articles in TBF, hard core
print and published. You are trying to remake this whole thing in an image
that would make me look like the bad guy here - but that's just not the case.
B - there's a certain negative reflection on Tani&Co which Tim abandoned.

WHAT? That's gotta be the funniest thing you said YET. Negative reflection?
I just talked to Les, Tim's lover OK? He was there at the time. Tim wanted
Les's (Les Masters) essay on it too, but he got so much guff over it from
Jacqui and others (and he was kicked out of the Davis Satanic Combat Science
thing) that it had to be not included by Tim. After Peter did that, wrote
him that mail, Tim ran to LORD EGAN'S MAGISTER, LES MASTERS about it.
According to Les himself, Tim did not want to just talk about fascism in ANY
satanism, as we all gave him essays on, or fascism in general which we also
gave him essays on. Tim wanted to talk about "fascism IN THE COS because it
was under his nose." That a quote. None of us did that. Don't tell me
what happened - or even try to tell Les what happaned. The fascist orgs
that SR has up there speaking FOR fascism, are NOT THE COS, DUH - and that
was put pup there LONG after this whole mess was over. They are orgs of
their own. Les is offline due to $$, he said he might go to the library and
check it out. Tim is well, he's unemployed, can't hold a job for more than
1 week and is trying for SSI on a disability. Les also remembered something
ELSE that I wholly forgot.

The guy who did the website for Tim - Tim never paid the guy - and so
Jacqueline Davis paid the guy FOR Tim to be honorable. I forgot that.

Post by SOD of the CoE
T - The Gidneys were the first people up front that bitched at him - and
next the Davises kicked him out of their Satanic Combat Science thing.
Next, Nagy got on chat and bitched that the whole place used to have a
comfortable fascist feel to it - and he wanted it back. That IS what
happened. He never gave up on his project. There happens to be a lot
meaningful being said in ALL of the essays. You just don't want to see it.
So there is no reason to converse about it any longer with me.
B - this means you're not going to post about it any longer? difficult
to believe, honestly. it does seem like a bone you will never put down.

WHAT? I'd not have posted a damned thing about it except that YOU pretty
much begged the question by getting confused about which thing came first.
Tim can't post since he's jobless and broke. But I did call them up. The
essays are up there and the whole "Is Fascism Satanic" is good. Note please
that Peter's email is NOT part of the collection of information. It's 100%
objective. I posted Tim's intro and his collected essays so you could SEE
what Gilmore responded to.

Post by SOD of the CoE
perhaps there is some reason to believe Mr. Lime's contention that it
is a substitute bone for the title you've had stripped away.

This is cute, Tyagi. I was helping him get essasys prior to that. YOU
ASKED about them by begging the question regarding the email Gilmore sent
him. In order to know what happaned then, you'd have to read what came
BEFORE that email - and that would be TIM's intro, TIM's collection of
essays. I still wonder WHAT prompted such an email given that his onsite
intro and collection was OBJECTIVE - as objective as anything DeBoo wrote.
I have no bone to pick, but I DO have a bone to pick with YOU when you
misrepresent what actually happaned there and back then. Uh, sorry but I
fail to see how YOU would have a bone to pick with me if I took away the
unicycle that you never used. Heh. We took away stuff they provably did
use quite a lot. They took away something I never used. Do the math. Stop
trying to squeeze a square peg in a round hole. That collection of Essays
Tim had also included PHIL's essay. It also included Ben's essay. Ben is
certainly not some Tani and company fantasy that you just made up off the
top of your head.

Post by SOD of the CoE
Kori: Point being, if an individual is a an org member (say, COS) and that
org isn't Fascist, why the concern with Fascism in Satanism? It's
searching for the keyhole in a wall without a door.
Tani: Point being, why is Jeff DeBoo concerned about it? Is he dealing in
hallucinations or does he see what he's writing about clearly? He sees it -
clearly.

Post by Tani Jantsang ©
T - oh, Peter wrote what he wrote - and i posted an unedited email of the
two of them talking. But WHAT on those essays Tim had, is PG talking about?
Ben is a CURRENT Cos member - HIS ESSAY was on Tim's site - and it's still
on OUR site. Bobo did NOT apparently read any of that He's just being his
same old lazy self about it. (he has problems reading block text - personal
letter from Bobo to me ages ago).

Kori Perhaps Bobo found P.G.'s detailed statement in the email to Tim that
the COS isn't Fascist (and why) convincing. I did. The original
question was whether or not there was anything behind the claim that
COSatanism had anything to do with Fascism. It doesn't, per the email.
You don't have to read the essays to get that.
B - you are of course correct, Kori.

Ok Bobo, did you read Tim's stuff as it was back then - which is WHAT
Gilmore responded to? I see nothing in there worth that kind of response.
You didn't read it, I think. You have said nothing to indicate that you read
it. Which means that you did NOT read what GILMORE read - before he wrote
Tim that email.

Post by SOD of the CoE
Tani: Tim wasn't asking if COS was fascist. He was asking IS FASCISM SATANIC
because too many orgs, and people IN the COS he knew quite well, were going
a whole article about the people that tended to like fascism. She had to
write something - and it's clear that she wrote it to the many that were
complaining about it in their own org. Her words are very clear. Note that
she wrote that LONG before I was online and before I knew any of these
characters.

Post by Tani Jantsang ©

Post by Tani Jantsang ©
He asked for essays on Ventrue's message board - got nothing, got bitched
at, got threatened.

By COS members that understood the difference in POV between a Satanist
and a member of the dull-witted herd of sheep.
T - Sorry Kori - he got abused by people for asking for essays.

Kori: Yes, because he wanted people to help him find the keyhole in a wall
without a door.
Tani - that just is not what happened. Turner posted a pro fascist article.
That was the keyhole. Others liked it. More keyholes.
B - your reiterations don't really support you much, Tani. consider this
carefully. once admitting you'd lie, inform FBI and orgs about people and
feel comfortable pretending to be a spy in quasi-Stalinesque garb, what,
truly, is the rationale of believing what you maintain is true, the truth
of what you will "swear under oath" to, etc.?

The sequence of what Tim actually posted. TIM's intro, TIM's collection,
THEN the gilmore email.

Post by SOD of the CoE

Post by Tani Jantsang ©
You weren't
there. I posted the logs Tim did save, and the letter he wrote to Peggy
about it! He got abused by dull witted herds of sheep. Namely: Turner,
the Nagys, the Gidneys, and the Davises - THEY bothered him along with a few
others.

Kori: You are calling these people "sheep" because you don't like them,
Tani: No, I called them sheep when I first encountered them because they ARE
sheep, they are WAY too concerned with the whole hierarchy thing and always
were - way too concerned with having someone "high up" tell them what to do.
I found them revolting due to that.
B - right, it just so happens that she doesn't like sheep. ;>
Kori: and that's your choice. He was rebuffed by those who saw further
implications to his project, and objected because they cared about the
COS -- which is ***their*** choice, whether you agree with that choice
or not.
Tani: you weren't there. This is your attempt to white wash what actually
happened. Since you weren't there, since you yourself did not speak TO THE
FASCISTS (as if YOU ARE ALSO ONE AGREEING WITH THEM) you don't know what you
are talking about.
Kori: You said Tim was still in the COS? If so, he realized what
the objections were to the project after a while.
Tani - see above. Tim was still in it, but angry as hell, angry enough to
go to Egan's Magister about it. He was PISSED.

Tecnically, Tim might well consider himself no longer a member of the COS,
since he has alligned himself with Egan's FCOS and Les Master (the Mag of
the FCOS) right after this happened. That's their rules.

Post by SOD of the CoE
B - and confused (needed editing by Casey), and interested in spinning the
"survey" toward anti-fascism (requiring Tani to ignore his requests to leave
pro-fascism OUT),

Nope. the pro fascism essays got in there LONG AFTER this whole mess
happened. At the TIME this happaned, there was nothing pro fascist in
there. There was only Tim's intro, his collection of essays - that's it.

and frightened of HP Gilmore (according to Jacqueline

Post by SOD of the CoE
Davis who witnessed the fear when perceiving threat of dismembership because
of factionalizing with Tani&Co and Ole Wolf who said Tim claimed Tani
rewrote or amended the "survey"). hey, I think I'm getting a handle on this.
Tim was all over the map. must've been impressionable or young or something.

You mean you are inventing a handle, LMAO. I posted his collected essays
because what we have up there now on our website, is a LOT MORE than just
what he collected - essays Gilmore never saw since they were put up there
much later.

Post by SOD of the CoE
Kori: It is possible for
that light to switch on, Tani. It's healthy to sometimes realize you
were wrong, and try a different approach.
Tani - uh, sorry, you weren't there. Do you think that got put up on the SR
without Tim's knowledge? His own dialogue is up there and he WANTED it there.
B - good for Tim. sounds like you and Tim are still best of buddies.

Les Master's lover. Best of buddies is not what I'd call anyone I know
online. Best of buddies is reserved ONLY for people in real life, Bobo.

Post by SOD of the CoE

Post by Tani Jantsang ©
T - Ok suckup trying so hard to play along here, so then, we are going to
take it for granted that you believe Jeffrey deBoo is STUPID and should be
laughed at.

Kori: Was deBoo in COS?
Tani: nope, DeBoo was not in the COS but for a long time, TBF their official
mag featured one article by DeBoo here or there - in the middle of a heap of
articles by people writing all this nicey nice about Hitler and all things
Third Reich. Do you think people didn't notice that? They did.
B - I recognized the intelligence and rationally-supportable positions
of JDeboo in "The Black Flame" which HP Nadrama generously sent my way,
subsequently contacted Brother Deboo and enjoyed reading all his material
on the subject of Satanism (anti-fascist, on similar principles expressed
by HP Gilmore in the discussion with Tim Stewart the changeable).

Post by Tani Jantsang ©
His essay is on there, too. Well, the COSsers certainly came
to HATE Jeff DeBoo. I know why. You weren't there. heh, I was. But I
didn't give a fuck about it, either.

Kori: Then why do you give multiple fucks about it now? Consider how far
gone fourth and fifth fucks must be if seconds are sloppy!
Tani - I don't.
B - but you give the impression of caring very much about it. this
impression has been remarked about to you directly often enough within
these threads. you may wish to run a check on your "care"-o-meter.

Jesus freaking christ - the next time YOU ASK me for something - and pretend
you want to get a picture of a whole thing that happened - DO NOT BOTHER. I
tried to answer you thoroughly. YOU are the one who gives a fuck about it,
Bobo - and so late in the game. This shit happened in 2000 for shit's
sakes. I completely FORGOT about the money thing mentioned above.

Post by SOD of the CoE
T - Bobo asked about it - only to supremely confuse himself
about the whole affair. But then, Bobo IS a confused person - for example
B - uh-oh, I *warned* you about trying to speak for me, Tani. you barely
are capable of retaining consistency about what YOU believe, but when it
comes to representing me you are very very BAD. please desist in this or
present quotes from me. this is exemplary as it constitutes your spin on
who you think that I am and what I think (incorrect in spots,
recalibrate).
T - He believes satan is wild nature.
B - I recognize that what those who use the Bogey as such are plastering
across is wholly described by this characterization, yes.
T - Wild nature = AMORAL biology - that IS the definition of it.
B - fascinating. again, nothing that I've maintained. your contention.
T - He admits he knows nothing about biology.
B - quote? I said: history and politics, silly. shall I begin to trot out
your Stalinesque names now that you're pretending I said other things?

You said that on another thread - that you know nothing or very little about
biology.

Post by SOD of the CoE
I have believed what you say that you don't actually think that we should
institute Stalin's WWII policies, why won't you believe that I don't think
I know very much about history and politics? as I also said, I like to
refer to people who have a better grounding in that field than I (same
as I do about biology, which I understand slightly better).
T - Ergo, he knows nothing about Satan - wild nature.
B - well argued, your premises, however, are flawed. having made little
contention about my overall knowledge of Satan (just that I have a blood
pact with what I understand that being to be), your assertions are flat.
T - Then he asked me what sociobiology has to do with Satanism.
DUUHHHHHHHHH.
B - since you'd made the claim that they were integral in your Satanism, sure,
I usually like to let the person doing the asserting speak to their point(s).

Sociobiology is important to Satanism because it's about the ANIMAL MAN and
treats man like any other biological organism. Sociobiology is also 100%
NOT politically correct. It looks at all the things humans do as just
ANIMAL BEHAVIOR - which it is.

Post by SOD of the CoE
T - Trying to explain the NATURE of H.sapiens to the man, and he snips it
becuase he can't understand it. DUHHHHH. I have use for such people, Kori?
Uh, NO.
B - as evidenced by the reams of responses and mailbox full (until I told you
I didn't want any more email from you about usenet items, thanks) which you
have spammed unnecessarily in weak support of your extreme contentions. that
others notice this also appears lost on you. as I said, it seems peculiar.

There is nothing extreme about treating man as any other organism.

Post by SOD of the CoE

Post by Tani Jantsang ©
I personally attack people who can't read things in consecutive

order.
Kori: You've been known to attack people because ***you*** didn't read
threads before flying off your handle. That's what happened between
us.
Tani: wrong. You attacked me quite a few times on alt.satanism for no
apparent reason - at the time you turned AGAINST the TOS. You did that.
And that was IT. I emailed you and asked you if you really made the post -
or if someone spoofed your name and email. But you did that. You threw a
pebble, albeit a few SMALL pebbles. And so that is IT.

Post by Tani Jantsang ©
1. Tim's intro (just found it, just posted it)
2. Tim's collection of essays and dialogue.
3. Tim's mail to Peggy and logs against him (the little what was

saved)

Post by Tani Jantsang ©
4. THEN Peter's stupid email bitching Tim out and having

hallucinations

Post by Tani Jantsang ©
about factions.

I still wonder if Bobo read all of that in the order in which it HAPPENED.
Gilmore did not reply to nothing. He went and saw the website that Tim had
up - and he saw an intro and the few articles that I know absolutely were up
there, which I posted on here. That is what Gilmore SAW. THEN Gilmore
reacted. I don't think Bobo read it in that order. And that would be the
order in which it actually happened.

Post by SOD of the CoE
Kori: And after all that, Tim is still in COS.
Tani: - that was a LONG time ago he was still in it after he got bitched
out. He NEXT (keep up, Kori) went to Les Masters - became lovers with Les
Masters. I doubt he's in the COS NOW. This shit happened around 2000.
This is 2004. The problem with Bobo and you is that you don't see things in
consequtive order or realize that this happened FOUR YEARS AGO - and what is
"the now" is a whole other thing. Back then, Les was Egan's Magister. NOW,
Les is in SR. Back then Tim was in COS and pissed as hell after he got
done being hurt. He THEN became Les's lover (they are gay).
B - what, is Tim's relationship with LMasters somehow problematic for
the CoS? they don't usually dismember do they? members for life unless
the idiots need to be separated from the Satanic Herd? or was LMasters
being in Tani&Co sufficient to *require* dismembering?

Uh, Les Masters was Egan's Magister. Members are told on their own website
that if they go and associate like that with other orgs - they can consider
themselves OUT of the COS. Les Masters was NOT involved with Tani and
company at the time - he was EGAN'S MAGISTER. Do you know what timing is?
Do you know what "at that time" means? At the time all this fascism essay
was ongoing, Tim saw me as a Mag in the COS. So did Egan. So did Les.
Ole was also in the cos at that time. Tim went OUTSIDE the cos parameters
when he went to Les Masters. The COS website says what it says clearly about
such associations. and heh, They don't spend the time sending such a person
a "you're out" note. No one got "out" of the COS after this happened or
even due to it. Phil is stil a Mag in the COS, duh. His essay was on Tim's
webiste.

Tim's project had nothing to do with the other matter where I

Post by SOD of the CoE
trashed/exposed their hack logs, 'let's rip them off" emails, and other
things - and then personally mailed it to the person I started to back
then call "blithering barton." Why did I call her blithering Barton?
1. Ygraine was living down in Port Saint Lucy. She somehow got quite a few
people to want to join the COS - about 12 of them. They were all ready to
PAY the $100. Next they ran into Schlesinger and the predictable happaned.
He bullied them. Ygraine's take on that was that $1200 that could have gone
into Barton's COS was forever LOST. Ygraine and her husband were invited to
a party by Peggy, who insisted that they fly to NYC from Florida to attend.
When they got there, they went to a hotel. Last minute, Peggy calls Ygraine
up and says not to attend the party because "Andre is a mess." What the
fuck? At another party, Andre personally mistreated her husband and some
guy that's a big writer (forgot name). This and other matters forced
Ygraine to compile a file on Schlesinger's doings and she went straight to
Barton about it - about the lost money, lost members, and lousy treatment.
Barton handed the matter over to Peggy to deal with Ygraine almost lost
her "meticulously worked-on friendship" with Peggy over that. Poor Peggy,
the word was all over, she is just blinded by that Andre guy, she doesn't
realize what he's like. Is that so? Next: I told Peggy. Peggy said get
proof. Heh heh heh - I DID. And that IS the problem Kori. I GOT the proof
and how I did it was the way a god damend cointelpro person might do it. I
got it alright, I showed it all to her, I showed it all to JEFF GERBER and
then I mailed it all to Barton. They didnt like what I managed to dig up,
Kori- and they certainly didn't like it that I told them where to go
(trashed them) and said they no longer had permission to use a SINGLE THING
from us. Now, you see, they were using it and using it for YEARS, every
word of it. Did I use their stuff? NOT a word of it. That's it. So heh,
taking a Mag title I never used away from me is like taking fake money away
from you. It's nothing. Taking our stuff away from them was taking away
something they definitely DID use (and got money from!). Bottom line.
B - damn! you know all the dirt, thanks.

You seem to be ASKING for the "dirt" Tyagi. What the hell do you imagine
you are looking for? She told me up front - and her words are in the COS
files. Keep in mind, she told me this as a Mag in the COS - seeking HELP
from a Mag. I sent what she told me to Peggy (that was a bad move, on
hindsight).

Post by SOD of the CoE
T - Now, I'm going to take away something from you, nyaa nyaa. I'm gonna take
away that Chinese unicycle, you know, the one you never had and would have
no use for Nyaa nyaa.
B - don't forget the fingertrap.

Yes, let me hand you a 3 dollar bill and tell the world that the SR org has
bestowed on Tyagi a 3 dollar bill. Then let me take it away from you.
Analogy, babe. Keep in mind, YOU broached this old shit up by ASKING about
it.

If anyone affiliates with a group that the COS defines as "not satanism"
(their own definition) they will be DISaffiliated from the COS. They say
that 2 times on their site.

Post by SOD of the CoE
T - You aren't stupid. You understand me quite clearly here. You also
understand what published written proof is. You just want to nag at me.
Have a nice day.
B - thanks!
blessed beast!
boboroshi at-sign satanservice.org: Satanic Outreach Director
Church of Euthanasia: http://www.churchofeuthanasia.org/
TOKUS WEBLINKS: http://dmoz.org/Bookmarks/B/boboroshi/
Ninth Scholar's Library (Satanism Archive): http://www.satanservice.org/

[nagasiva]

50041219 viii om Hail Satan!

"Tani Jantsang ©" <***@SPAMpost.com>:
# One question [bobo]...

ok, one question, then I'm moving on to things more relevant
to Satanism rather than this dramatic tangent, thanks for your
perserverance on trying to get what you know to be true understood.

# ... DID YOU READ Tim's intro posted here, the essays Tim
# got at the time were posted here, and THEN reread Gilmore's
# email UNEDITED, also posted here? In that order? ....

no. next? you might want to include them in their original condition
as links from the CoS Files if you want it to be more clear. as it
stands I still don't see much value in the CoS files for my purposes.

<balance deleted>

blessed beast!

boboroshi at-sign satanservice.org: Satanic Outreach Director
Church of Euthanasia: http://www.churchofeuthanasia.org/
TOKUS WEBLINKS: http://dmoz.org/Bookmarks/B/boboroshi/
Ninth Scholar's Library (Satanism Archive): http://www.satanservice.org/

[Tani Jantsang ©]

Post by nagasiva
50041219 viii om Hail Satan!
# One question [bobo]...
ok, one question, then I'm moving on to things more relevant
to Satanism rather than this dramatic tangent, thanks for your
perserverance on trying to get what you know to be true understood.
# ... DID YOU READ Tim's intro posted here, the essays Tim
# got at the time were posted here, and THEN reread Gilmore's
# email UNEDITED, also posted here? In that order? ....
no.

Ok, that explained a great deal of what I clearly see as your real confusion
about a few unrelated things.

next? you might want to include them in their original condition

Post by nagasiva
as links from the CoS Files if you want it to be more clear. as it
stands I still don't see much value in the CoS files for my purposes.

Forget the COS files - they are a compiled MESS - which is why Ole ditched
them and wrote a scholarly essay! ya see?
--
http://www.geocities.com/satanicreds/clearair.html
http://www.geocities.com/satanicreds/titles.html
http://www.geocities.com/satanicreds/projectone-orig.html
Loading Image...
http://www.geocities.com/satanicreds/brendanspeaks.html
http://www.geocities.com/satanicreds/aquinospeaks.html
http://www.geocities.com/bartonletters/

There is nothing MORE to say.

[Dagon Productions]

Post by Tani Jantsang ©

Post by nagasiva
50041219 viii om Hail Satan!
# One question [bobo]...
ok, one question, then I'm moving on to things more relevant
to Satanism rather than this dramatic tangent, thanks for your
perserverance on trying to get what you know to be true understood.
# ... DID YOU READ Tim's intro posted here, the essays Tim
# got at the time were posted here, and THEN reread Gilmore's
# email UNEDITED, also posted here? In that order? ....
no.

Ok, that explained a great deal of what I clearly see as your real confusion
about a few unrelated things.
next? you might want to include them in their original condition

Post by nagasiva
as links from the CoS Files if you want it to be more clear. as it
stands I still don't see much value in the CoS files for my purposes.

Forget the COS files - they are a compiled MESS - which is why Ole ditched
them and wrote a scholarly essay! ya see?

Oh, yes, scholarly from a grade school perspective.

-Douglas

[Tani Jantsang ©]

Tyagi -

Note: this is a copy of an email given to various people by Stewart (Tim
Stewart Epperhart)). It is now unaltered, what was in the email Tim gave
people to see, is here with NO OTHER comments on it. Tim did not know how to
obtain "full headers" or anything like that. Please NOTE that the "new
website" referred to in here by Gilmore was one that was put up FOR STEWART
by someone else that is not involved in any of this. He may have paid for
the work.

It is perculiar that they'd butt into what Stewart wanted to do - which was
very similar to what Jeff DeBoo had been doing longer than Stewart (who
never heard of Deboo!). Gilmore was asked to view this by the Gidney couple
or by Ygraine Gidney alone. In fact, the actual UNEDITED articles Stewart
had for his Project One were posted on alt.satanism BEFORE anyone connected
to Tani saw them. They were POSTS!

Next thing, Stewart came into #satanmuse where Tani and many others were
having fun and he asked them for essays for his project. He also told
everyone what happened when he asked for the same essays from certain other
people in the clique that contained the Gidneys, the Davises, Ventrue, "Dr.
Mengele" (his nick), the Nagy couple and a few others.

It is assumed that COS members can do projects if they feel like it -
Stewarts project was like Jeff DeBoo's stuff, only Stewret never heard of
DeBoo. The Project was on "Is Fascism Satanic." What is wrong with
collecting essays on this subvject? Why in the world would the Gidneys ask
Gilmore to look at what Stewart wrote - and why would Gilmore chastise
Stewart about it? Why would he put the blame on any of it on Tani when
Stewart ON HIS OWN posted about this project before Tani helped him get
essays from various people. That is ALL that Tani did, in fact. HELPED HIM
GET ESSAYS.

EMAIL - quote

On Mon, 28 Aug 2000 08:26:36 GMT "Tim Epperhart"
<&***@hotmail.com> writes:

Peter: Dear Mr. Stewart (Epperhart): I recently was asked by some members to
view your new website, specifically the section dealing with your project
regarding "fascism."

Peter: Since we (the administration of the Church of Satan and Anton LaVey
himself) have long considered this to be a dead issue (we had articles in
"The Black Flame" which dealt with this over a course of several years), I
wasn't inclined to spend the time. However, I was told that you present
erroneous information about the Church of Satan as if it were factual, and
that claim did require investigation. I found it to be true. I note that
your project essentially consisted of sending out an email letter and then
gathering and posting responses. I counted the responses, and they were
written by less than twenty individuals. Since the Church of Satan consists
of many thousands of members, very few of whom are online, if this was
intended to be a comprehensive "survey," it certainly fails. In actuality it
is only a reflection of the opinions of online individuals who are in direct
contact with you and who chose to respond.

Peter: By any statistical standards, this makes your project meaningless, if
it is meant to convey information regarding the Church of Satan.

Peter: You are not an administrator of the Church of Satan, nor are any of
the people who responded to you (a number of whom aren't even members of the
Church of Satan). So, you personally should have borne such facts in mind
when making the broad generalizations in your own introduction and
conclusion to the emails which you received in response to your letter. But
it is clear that you did not. You assume that you have some knowledge about
the Church of Satan at large, its membership and its practices, and this is
completely erroneous.

Peter: My general impressions concerning these emails (save for the very
sensible response by "Wooki") is that a straw man is being established (the
concept that there is some kind of "fascist faction" which has a hand in
controlling the Church of Satan) and then knocked down.

Peter: If indeed there is a "fascist faction," neither you nor any of your
respondents spent any time in listing the members of this group by name or
listing their numbers, nor is any time spent in quoting any of their works
which would prove their agenda - which you state to be the intention to
force other Church of Satan members to "agree with them or leave the Church
of Satan."

Peter: If you cannot prove that a substantial percentage of the membership
of the Church of Satan has preached a specific political agenda (namely
"fascism") and then demanded that all of the other members must agree with
this or leave, then this project has no validity.

Peter: It is simply what it is: a handful of people shooting the breeze
about a topic. It is a collection of opinions, and we all know that it is
said that "opinions are indeed like assholes - everyone has one...etcetera."

Peter: Let me examine the introduction and conclusion which you wrote to
bracket the solicited emails. I have quoted this text directly from your
site, and my questions and comments are interpolated and will be enclosed in
brackets. My questions are rhetorical and what I state is not intended to
fuel debate. My purpose is to make an offer to you and those who think as
you do, and you will come across it in due course.

---------------------------------------------------

PROJECT 1

Stewart: By: Timothy Stewart Epperhart - "Wolf At Hart" The successes of
fascism easily make people lose all perspective and result in their
forgetting, or being ignorant of the actual conditions which made the
strengthening and the victory of fascism possible.

Note brackets, this is Peter's text.

Peter: [This is what is called a "sweeping generalization," as any high
school writing teacher would point out. Detailed evidence is required to
support such a claim, and unfortunately none is supplied by you or your
respondents in all that is to follow. What are the "successes" and "victory"
of fascism, particularly when we all know that fascist states have, for the
most part, fallen? ]

Stewart: Introduction: First of all, I'm going to allow the readers of this
document to understand that this project came about from a simple letter and
correspondence over E-mail; Initially my intentions were set on making an in
depth article with the help of some acquaintances, and in some cases
non-acquaintances if that was their choice: And yes, there was choice. Speak
up and be heard: or shut up!

Peter: [This reveals your agenda: you DEMAND participation in your project -
that people MUST come argue in your "sandbox," and then you dismiss any who
don't think it worthy of participation and tell them to be silent. Sounds
rather "fascistic" to me. It could be that many people wouldn't think you
have the credentials to be capable of handling such a project with the
requisite objectivity, let alone the literary and editorial skills needed,
and opted out for that reason.]

Stewart: Here is the Original Letter: I am going to analyze the "ideal of
Fascism" that we see within the Satanic movement at the present time. I
asked for both sides and hoped for an historically objective account.

Peter: [You asked whom for both sides? Did you contact any members of the
Church of Satan who have claimed to be attempting to make this organization
a fascist organization?.....

Stewart, I believe you perhaps should have come forward with the information
you got from your contact on satannet - the one who KNOWS who they are and
who told you some of their names, or just provided them yourself with logs
to prove it or whatever else you have. You sure the hell came forth STRONGLY
with this - and at that time I thought you were one of them lol!! SOMETHING
must have made you write it - and whoever imagines I had A THING to do with
it, better screw their heads on tighter. I didn't even know about it. Hell,
Valinda knew about it 1 month before I did. MANY did. That would have been
interesting if you provided proof. My whole angle on this shit is that there
is nothing political going on because these people are political idiots. My
whole contention is (and I know this) that their fetish is SEXUAL. That
their desire is based on emotional rage as an impetus. They aren't Nazis or
fascists. They are idiots.

Peter: .....Essentially, I doubt that you could have, as there aren't any
members who are attempting to do this.....

Peter: .....The Church of Satan has always been politically pragmatic - I've
said it, LaVey has said it. The Church of Satan does not dictate the
politics of its members, and they are (and have always been) free to choose
whatever suits their personal needs. For the record, those outside the
Church of Satan have, from its inception, accused it of all manner of
politics: communism, fascism, anarchism, liberalism, conservatism - and just
about anything else you can think of, all of which are mutually exclusive.
What IS clear, is that journalists who have an "axe to grind" against the
Church of Satan have always accused it of advocating a political system
which is one they personally abhor - thus the Church of Satan plays the role
of "devil" to them in whatever arena of human thought they wish to explore.]

Stewart: The statements made by Magistrate Nadramia in her "speculation on
similarities between Fascism and Satanism" are noted and should be viewed
for relevance. The URL for that article is or was:
http://www.apodion.com/vad/cos/s_n_Nazi.shtml (It is also in "Is Fascism
Satanic" on www.geocities.com/satanicreds/

Peter: [This article is still relevant (and was heartily endorsed by Anton
LaVey - which doesn't require that you do likewise), and it was interesting
to note how some of your respondents supplied their own definitions for
fascism - essentially putting a spin on what Magistra Nadramia had said very
clearly, then argued against it. More "straw man" tactics, which are among
the methodologies used by demagogues.]

Peter: [Some of your respondents did attempt to clarify your error of
conflating these terms. That you said this is an example, however, of a very
real "herd" definition of these terms. In the 1960's the radical left
preached a philosophy of "peace and love" which really boiled down to the
concept of leveling everything to being "equal." This "philosophy"
championed the abandoning of any rational criteria for evaluation of
anything, and the embracing of everything as being of equal value, which
thus fostered mediocritization of every level of human cultural endeavor. We
are still living in the fallout of this mode of thinking, as the then young
people who espoused these ideas have grown to adulthood and are now the
"establishment" (those adults whom they considered to be the enemy during
the sixties). This "egalitarianism" (for that is what they called it) was
manifested in the cultural arena with concepts such as: "Anything can be
defined as being art and all such works must be considered to have equal
validity."....

Peter: .....Thus, some random splashes on a canvas were considered an equal
achievement to the Sistine Chapel, a mud hut was held up as being equivalent
to Versailles, and so on. This principle of "indiscrimination" lead to all
other fields of achievement. A janitor was considered the equivalent to a
physicist, a novelist was now the peer of one who scrawled graffiti on a
bathroom wall and so on. Those who opposed this leveling were accused of
being "fascists" or "Nazis," without regard for what these terms might have
meant in their actual historical origins and practice. After all, it was the
mid-sixties, twenty years after the ending of a war that none of these folks
were even alive to have experienced. How quickly past orthodoxies are
forgotten. The Church of Satan was created in the mid-sixties and stood in
contradistinction to these ideas, which were generally defined as being
"liberal." .....

Peter: .....From the time of the very foundation of the organization, Anton
LaVey and the members of the Church of Satan were appalled at this societal
trend, which favored the elimination of concrete criteria for the evaluation
of just about anything and instead advocated that any kind of merit was
illusory - and thus that the act of evaluation was an "evil" practice.
"Discrimination" became a "bad word," when previously it had meant "sound
judgment." Well, the Church of Satan never shied away from embracing things
which society considered "evil," and thus it championed a rebirth of strict
criteria for evaluation of all areas of human endeavor, and quite radically
placed the responsibility for this squarely on the shoulders of each
individual. Thus, there was no "appeal to authority" for Satanists - each
person held the responsibility for being their own authority. For this
reason, we were called "fascists" and "Nazis" - NOT because of any
advocation of the sociopolitical ends of these historical movements......

Peter: .....Satanists today do not shy away from being called these names
for this very same reason. We champion merit and superior achievement in all
areas, and are the enemy of enshrined mediocrity. We abhor what we see as a
society that is a rampant "mediocracy." The masses (in the sixties as well
as of today) don't know what the terms "Nazi" and "fascist" really mean in a
historical sense. These are used as epithets against anyone with whom they
don't agree. Most frequently they are employed by "politically correct"
intellectuals who use "Nazi" and "fascist" in the same manner that Joe
McCarthy used the word "communist" and the Christian Inquisitors used the
word "witch" - to discredit the validity of the accused's point of view and
brand them a "heretic/thought criminal." Because of the continuing decline
in the level of education, even amongst those who pursue degrees at major
universities, we can expect that there will be no real broad understanding
of what the terms "Nazi" and "fascist" really mean. These will simply remain
derogatory epithets used against those perceived to be "the bad guys.".....

Peter: .....Satanists are aware of what impact words and images have on the
herd, and thus use them to their advantage. It should be clear to anyone who
has observed human society that there is an all-pervading interest on the
part of the contemporary general public with the Third Reich. This
commentary to you would grow to gigantic proportions should I take the time
to examine the reasons for this (most of which should be obvious). Anyone
with cable television or who happens to visit movie theatres will see that
the Nazis are now the standard archetype in entertainment for what the
masses deem to be "Evil" - and they are fascinated with this and fetishize
it to no end. Do you watch "The History Channel" (whose emblem is a carved,
angular letter "H")? We jokingly say that this really stands for "Hitler"
not "History" as over 50% of their programming is Third Reich related. Yes,
it's a HERD thing.

It should come as no surprise to any Satanist, that certain savvy Satanists
who make their living entertaining the masses (like Boyd Rice or Brian
Warner) use the public's obsession with this material for their own
ends......

Peter: .....Hence both have used symbols and techniques derived from Third
Reich spectacles (which were undeniably powerful means for motivating masses
of people) for the purpose of stimulating their audiences and thus putting
money in their pockets. Is this advocating political fascism? No.]

Stewart: ..initially had specific criteria which are notable. The Nazis are
well known for their treatment of the Jews in their area, which they
exterminated for being "a weaker race." Scientists do acknowledge a
similarity in "Jewish People" or Semites, via gene analysis, but such
analysis didn't exist during those times; needless to say, the Nazis viewed
the Jews not as a religion, but as a race. The best solution the Nazis came
up with for so-called stratification, was to adopt the most potent political
system at their disposal: Fascism. This was Nazism.

Peter: [In point of fact, "stratification" was not the goal of the German
fascists. They sought political power and needed a scapegoat for the
economic woes of many people.....

Peter: .....They chose the Jews, since many were economically successful,
and galvanized much of the populace into following them through this hatred.
They also targeted communists, whom they felt were enemies to their system
of National Socialism. Once the Nazis took power, their first order of
business was to imprison political enemies, many of whom were communists.
These were the people incarcerated in concentration camps, long before any
program was established to put Jews in these camps simply because of their
being Jewish. In fact, the German government worked with Zionist movements
to export Jews to the area now known as Israel, even helping these people to
evade British blockades in their quest to emigrate to their ancestral
"homeland." The Holocaust happened later, at a time of greater desperation
for the Nazi State.]

Peter: [This statement is complete bunk. Which Satanists said this and
where?]

Stewart: Also influencing them is that the Swastika is looked upon as being
"Evil" like the Sigil of Baphomet. The Swastika was considered a very
atrocious thing. What the Swastika actually meant in the past has no bearing
on any of this, regardless of Herd Misconceptions.

Peter: [The herd¹s misconceptions have EVERYTHING to do with how a Satanist
uses symbols to influence the herd. That should be obvious. The folks who
run around today and try to reclaim the swastika as a "good" symbol have
totally failed to supplant the herd's identification of this as a sign of
"ultimate Evil," far more potent to them than the Sigil of Baphomet.
Satanists take note of this fact. When dealing with mass consciousness,
original meanings are not of any importance, but the current meanings are
all important - which was the import of my discussion of the terms "Nazi"
and "fascist" above.]

Stewart: "Amidst the Hitlerian concept of strength through joy!" -ASL, The
Satanic Bible. Indeed, Hitler was no fool when he offered the people freedom
on a personal level, but the way that it was done was wrong and is opposed
to Church of Satan doctrine.

Peter: [Here is the crux of what is a major misprision that exists in almost
all of the people who responded to your project. It is that they identify
with the herd, and not the rulers of these projected "idealistic" fascist
societies.]

Peter: [Fascism in actuality is a doctrine that requires the submission of
individuals to the goals of the state. It is a collectivist philosophy,
suppressing individualism, which states that each person should sacrifice
himself to an abstract principle, which is treated as a mythologically
sacred entity - THE STATE.

Peter: The past supposed "glories" of the state become the sacred icons in
what is in actuality a new religion. Fascism is clearly a means for
controlling herds (and one that was effective). When this doctrine is placed
into practice, there has to be somebody who tells the herd what the needs of
THE STATE are to be, since THE STATE is just an abstraction - it does not
exist. Here enters the "Ruling Class" - otherwise known as the Nazi Party,
The Communist Party, the Khmer Rouge, and so on. These rulers claim to
embody THE STATE, and tell the masses what is the will of THE STATE, and
they reign much like the ancient priesthoods, who held their power by being
the only ones capable of communicating to people the "will of the Gods."
These people are a de facto "aristocracy," which uses THE STATE for its
raison d'etre, just as the latter day heads of some of the communist states
handed down THE WILL OF THE PEOPLE as their excuse for controlling their
massed subjects. These rulers are not subject to sacrificing themselves to
THE STATE, because they are the ones who, as embodiments of THE STATE,
choose who is to be sacrificed (and they don't pick themselves - though
sometimes they do pick their cohorts who are getting a bit too cocky). These
kinds of rulers now use terms more palatable to our century, whose masses
won't buy such old excuses as "the divine right of kings," but their means
are identical. Of course, these rulers are often foiled by subsequent
"prophets," who convince the masses that they, rather than the current
rulers, embody THE STATE, and so counter-revolutions occur and the former
leaders are usually dispatched with violence.

Peter: "Don't pay any attention to the man behind the curtain!" said the
glowering face in a fountain of fire (THE STATE/THE WILL OF THE PEOPLE),
hoping that Dorothy and crew wouldn't notice who really is pulling the
strings. But Toto (the beast) pulled aside the curtain. Now we might begin
to see how Satanists factor in to this equation. The Satanist should always
be aware of who is really running the situation in which he finds himself.
Satanists do not see themselves as being part of the herd and naturally
resist any attempts to be forced to live under any regimes that would make
them part of the controlled herd. However, Satanists really don't care how
the herd is being controlled, so long as they themselves aren't subject to
being controlled along with them. If forced by circumstance to be part of
such a governmental situation (and I caution the reader to examine how much
he really knows about the machinations of his current nation of residence),
the clever Satanist would either be the person who pulls the strings, or,
more likely, his associate. Being the one behind a "leader" is generally a
safer position, as the leader is always a target, while the advisors often
survive changes in "top dogs."

Peter: Some Satanists who are "political idealists" might envision a future
wherein Satanists are the "man behind the curtain" directing the herd to
support their own personal indulgences - the herd sacrificing themselves to
a ruling, but necessarily hidden, Satanic "elite." Frankly, I see this as a
political pipedream. Running a state would leave little time for personal
indulgences and enjoying one's life. In contemporary Western society, the
only political factions likely to attempt create a fascistic system (as
meant by the original meanings of the terms) are the right-wing Christians
(and the film, "The Handmaid's Tale" provides a chilling visualization of
this possibility). I think it far more productive to advocate a system which
guarantees freedom for the exercise of many points of view (so long as it
doesn't require me to pay for wastrels who want a free ride).

Peter: But we in the administration of the Church of Satan do not control
the thoughts of our members, so if some of them want to toy with these
"political dreams," that is their business. As long as they don't drag our
Church into any political agendas, their personal pursuits remain just that:
personal.]

Stewart: Herd mentality is a sin in CoS doctrine and it is noted: how else
would the Nazis be able to exterminate a race? On a personal level? Was this
a way for an ideal form of stratification?

Peter: [Did anyone say it was?]

Stewart: Is murder stratification, and would these actions be "justified"
because they were founded upon a Fascistic point of view?

Peter: [That humans kill one another is a part of the way our species
functions. When nations come into conflict with each other, and this
escalates beyond economic exchanges, what in peacetime would be termed
"murder" then becomes justified in the hands of the military. How the
conflicts finally pan out is one of the means for large-scale stratification
in our species.]

Stewart: E-Mail Observations and information to ***@hotmail.com
I look forward to writing this article, in any case. Thank you for
participation. Hail Satan! Hail the Church of Satan! Timothy Stewart

Stewart: Stewart's commentary: Now we come to the end where it is necessary
to evaluate these responses and fill in the blanks.

Stewart: I am sure some of the points raised will hit home with many
readers, both those who are members of the CoS and those who are not. Some
of what you've read you probably already understood since history is rife
with examples of the affects of Fascism and it is fairly easy to see, in
those examples, just what kind of people Fascism appeals to.

Peter: [Since multi-level definitions of "fascism" were not explored in this
project (you and your respondents missed its "common-parlance" usage and
chose to concentrate only on some of its historical definitions), the
analyses in the postings on your site concerning what form of
attractions/repulsions it may have for certain types of individuals do not
even begin to qualify as being exhaustive or even relevant.]

Stewart: Regardless of the differences between the "moral foundations" of
those Fascists in the past and the present Fascist infection, as I see it,
they share the same intentions.

Peter: [It is curious that you use the word "infection" here, yet no effort
has been made on your site to demonstrate just what is being infected, by
whom, and to what extent.

Peter: So, using this term is an attempt at pushing emotional buttons
without justification - not rational argument.]

Stewart: That is, to form an "All is One" union or dictatorship at the
highest levels in the organization that would trickle down, via
brainwashing, and a "toe the line or get out" party line to the
rank-and-file.

Peter: [The Church of Satan has never required anything of its members
except that they hold the writings of Anton LaVey as their basis for
membership in this organization. Members are free to build their own
personal viewpoints on this foundation. If people have substantial
disagreements with LaVey's work, or wish to promote something else as the
basis for Satanism, like the "dark doctrines,".....

Peter: .....then they should not be members and should tender their
resignations immediately.

Peter: There is no "brainwashing" in this organization - we don't have the
time for such labor intensive activities, which would garner minimal
results, and which are counter to our basic principles.

Peter: As from the beginning, we are a cabal of very independent individuals
who share a philosophy synthesized by Anton LaVey as our point of
commonality. And we will not try to force our members into some kind of
lock-step unity in their personal choices for building upon LaVey's
foundation. However, one thing I see in common amongst many of the
responders to your letter, is that they usually do identify themselves as a
self-proclaimed "faction" who center themselves on the ideas of Tani
Jantsang, not those of Anton LaVey.

Peter: Even if this is not admitted, any casual observer of the writings of
these people makes this very clear.

Peter: And, from their recent activities in chat rooms and on Usenet, it is
abundantly apparent that this clique is set on making the Church of Satan a
"one true way" organization based on their interpretations of issues of
sociology, politics, and biology.

Peter: This "faction" clearly plays "Inquisition" and labels those members
of the Church of Satan who disagree with them as "Klippoths".....

Peter: .....(remember, Joe McCarthy and the Inquisitors as mentioned
above?), and is now working to make their opinions the basis for the Church
of Satan. I represent the administration of the Church of Satan and state
that we will not tolerate this attempt at turning our organization into a
totalitarian organization whose sole aim is the promotion of the agendas of
this small group of individuals. These people followed their own paths in
the past, and didn't require that others kowtow to them.

Peter: However, particularly since these folk are active "online," lately
their ideas seem less and less based on the work of LaVey, and consequently
more and more demanding that all other members of the Church of Satan whom
they encounter must agree with them.

Peter: If they find individual members who disagree,.....

Peter: .....they have stated that they will attempt to drive them out. This
is not acceptable, as it is not the business of this clique to determine who
is or who is not a member of the Church of Satan. They are not
administrators of this organization, and they are not arbiters of
membership.

Peter: As Dr. LaVey has said, when ice melts, it is called water. So, if
this clique has decided that they have a new foundation for their concepts
of Satanism (and Tani herself has said there is little of Satanism, by her
definition, in the Church of Satan).....

Peter: .....then they are all invited to leave immediately and found their
own unique organization.]

Stewart: The reader who is paying attention will note the similarity in this
(fascist) doctrine and outlook to the early Christian doctrine of "Convert
or Die."

Peter: [Essentially this defines the tactics used by the Tani clique (Agree
with our way of "correcting" LaVey or be branded a "Klippoth"),.....

Peter: .....NOT the Church of Satan's administration, which accepts a rather
diverse set of means derived from LaVey¹s writings.]

Stewart: The proponents of this Organizational Fascism

Peter: [Whom you have still failed to identify.]

Stewart: cannot practice that doctrine in full in the real world because
those in the past that objected to this tyranny bought our freedom from that
fate with their blood.

Peter: [This reads like a threat to the straw man of "proponents of
Organizational Fascism," that those who disagree with them will do so "with
their blood." That is typical rhetorical nonsense, not rational debate - a
tactic used so effectively by Dr. Goebbels, I might add.]

Stewart: Were it still a valid option, however, the vehemence of the Satanic
Fascist faction

Peter: [Some evidence of this "vehemence," please.]

Stewart: makes it fairly plain that it would be a method joyously utilized
by them to silence the opposition! "You better shut up!" "You better drop
this project." "You can leave if you don't like it."

Peter: [Has any member of the administration of the Church of Satan told any
of the people who've responded to this project to "shut up"?.....

Peter: .....Has any member of the administration told you to "drop this
project"?.....

Peter: .....(Whether any of us thinks that it is a project that has been
executed with any skill is another matter, but we generally don't offer our
opinions unless asked, as per one of our "Rules of the Earth.") And
concerning the corporate entity, which is the Church of Satan, it IS
thoroughly within our rights as administrators of the corporation to tell
any members that, if they disagree with how we are running the organization,
then they SHOULD "leave if they don't like it." We are also empowered to
terminate their titles and membership at will. Membership in the Church of
Satan does not grant you rights of usage of property which belongs to the
corporation, nor does it give you anything beyond what the administration of
the corporation chooses to give to you.]

Stewart: This doctrinal similarity with the avowed enemies of the Satanic
movement in the past, is a large contributing factor to the feeling, on my
part and on the part of many, that these so-called Nazi Revisionist
Satanists have worn out their welcome. Some still pose the question of
whether there is, indeed, a Fascist faction in the CoS.

Peter: [Again, you've presented no evidence whatsoever that there exists a
faction of "Nazi Revisionist Satanists" in the Church of Satan, much less
that such a mythical faction has any power in the organization.]

Stewart: What of stratification? Would that not be a definition of what is
going on within the organization?

Peter: [Stratification is a term coined by Anton LaVey to signify how nature
allows everything to "seek its own level." It is not something to be
advocated - it happens of its own accord. In human social situations there
are many strata - though here in the West for years this was (mistakenly)
thought to be invalid because "democracy" supposedly dissolved the old
formal class structures. In reality, classes founded on economic status were
the new "strata," though some mobility is offered when individuals who were
entrepreneurs garnered enough wealth to move out of their original stratum.
In the past, there were still issues for these "upwardly mobile" individuals
concerning their social status since families coming from "old money" were
associated with "cultured aristocracy" while their "new money" was pegged as
being part of "crass materialism" (and there was some evidence to support
these stereotypes). And stratification is always happening in the
organization, as such cannot be avoided.]

Stewart: It is an interesting question. I would ask the reader to keep the
following point in mind as he/she ponders the question of stratification:
the goal of Fascism is "sameness." In no way does "sameness" equate with
stratification.

Peter: [The goal of fascism is to weld a group of people together towards a
common goal - support of a state - which itself is an illusion created by
the rulers of that state. The "sameness" is the common purpose, and such has
always been the means for totalitarians whether they are called fascists, or
clergy, or commissars. This has nothing ostensibly to do with
stratification, which ideally is the recognition of natural differences
depending upon merit, but can be seen practically in how well the clever
"know the ropes" of the system in which they live. People rise and fall, or
remain static in their society. Like seeks like. As Satanists, we embrace
the principle that there are those who naturally are leaders, and those who
are followers. There are masters and there are slaves, and quite a few
shades in between. It is a delusion amongst many who embrace Satanism that
by adopting this philosophy, they are immediately "masters," and are thus
now equal to all of the other "masters." This is an error. Satanists know
that those who embrace Satanism treat themselves as their own Gods - making
the satisfaction of their individual selves the standard of value for their
lives. However, only the naïve would think that amongst these
self-acknowledged Satanists that everyone is automatically in some kind of
"equivalent brotherhood" now that they are calling themselves "Satanists."
Nothing could be further from reality. Embracing Satanism does not
automatically give you advanced creative skills, a lifetime of hard-won
experience, or wisdom garnered from studying the wealth of information now
at our fingertips. You may be "your own god" but you don't have instant
"godhood" in the realm of human endeavor - that is something only gained
through the refined cultivation of whatever talents are yours by nature.
Satanism can be a great "launching pad" for those who are realists, to see
where they stand in their level of personal achievement, and to rationally
decide how to advance themselves in whatever manner they choose (or not to
advance themselves, but to enjoy whatever level they wish to have). Amongst
Satanists, there are some who embrace the principles of this philosophy and
do not feel that they have the capabilities to make their own horizons, as
Nietzsche defined a characteristic of his superior humans. These honest
individuals, under Satanism, have the choice to personally (and wisely)
select their master, and thus to guarantee that they will get the guidance
they desire which will be beneficial to themselves (unlike unwilling slaves,
they are also free to switch masters should they so choose). Few are honest
enough about themselves to make such a decision. We are thus confronted with
a spectacle of "Satanists" who are all failing the "leaky inner tube test."
They puff themselves up with claims of godhood, when they are, by any
objective standards, really just a bunch of low-grade buffoons who can't
produce anything on a level that could be deemed professional (as low as
many standards for professionalism are these days). Would that they could
honestly look into the mirror and see themselves for who they really are,
and that those who aren't "leaders and innovators" should stop being
pretenders to those thrones. They'd be happier and the fringes of Satanism
would look less ridiculous. However, we do understand the "nature of the
human beast" and thus will do our best to usher these pretentious fools out
of the door of the Church of Satan.]

Stewart: The members of this Fascist faction would have us believe that by
belonging to their faction they are demonstrating some kind of "personal
power." In their eyes, the identification with a political doctrine and
people that sought the elimination of a supposedly "weaker race" invests
them with some feeling of superiority, and they take this to be Satanic.

Peter: [You have offered no evidence for such a faction in the Church of
Satan using this methodology. This is, however, an accurate description of
many white supremacists, and those folk are currently in short supply
amongst our membership. I suggest that this must have something to do with
Anton LaVey's personal Jewish roots, as well as the fact that we don't
embrace racism since it is collectivist thinking and thus not compatible
with the individualist basis for the philosophy of the Church of Satan.]

Stewart: Self-delusion is never a Satanic value,

Peter: [You got that one right!]

Stewart: and self-deluded they are.

Peter: [I'd venture to call this "projection."]

Stewart: Those who posses the "personal power" these would-be Fascists lust
after, feel no need to adopt postures designed to showcase said power; only
the posers feel the need to pose. This is easily proven by a simple survey
of those who practiced political Fascism in the past; it has never been a
political movement of the strong.

Peter: [Real Satanists have confidence and "personal power" as they
determine the course of their lives, to whatever extent is possible in the
society in which they live. There are times when masochists are attracted to
Satanists, and these folk antagonize the Satanist in an attempt to goad them
into exercising their real power (not a postured power). The Satanist, as
LaVey explained, is an Epicurean Sadist, and when such masochists
come-a-calling, the Satanist often says "No" to the symbolic requests for a
"beating," thus turning the masochist's sought after eustress into distress.
But the Satanist's option to say "yes" also exists, and he can then provide
the masochist with the "beating" being requested, only if it gives the
Satanist satisfaction. That some Satanists use fascist-related imagery to
manipulate the herd has nothing to do with their own sense of efficacy. They
don't need it to be bolstered via symbols of any sort. It is simply a matter
of pushing buttons in the mass (or individual) consciousness for their own
ends - as was described above concerning Boyd Rice and Brian Warner. We all
know from history that the real fascist movements fell from power. BUT, only
a fool would ignore the continued power of their iconography over the
popular consciousness. Hence, you don't see any Satanists advocating
neo-fascist political movements - which are currently the purview of those
who feel they have no power over their lives and are looking for scapegoats
to blame for this powerlessness. The neo-Nazis are generally powerless white
folk, who want to try to do what Hitler did in the past. They are clinging
to a sunken ship. Real fascists today use Jesus and Christian moral
righteousness to make their way to power, blaming those who oppose their
morality for the distress their members feel. Their scapegoats are chosen
using their own morality and faith as the criteria. Satanists, for the most
part, clearly oppose Christian concepts of morality and would also oppose
the success of such movements (unless, perhaps, they have the concession for
selling Christian tchotchkes!).]

Stewart: An interesting aside is that these people are idolizing a system of
thought and practice that would see them as its first victims. No genuine
political Fascist would "suffer a Satanist to live."

Peter: [This is correct, in as much as I've said above, that the only forces
poised to effectively create a fascist state in the current Western world
are those motivated by the right-wing Christian coalition. They'd love a
theocracy, but not one dominated by the Vatican as was the last such
political state. As said above, some "politically idealist" Satanists might
advocate a very different kind of fascism, wherein the goals of the state
are defined by Satanists, and the herd follows them (though this is really
quite a "pie-in-the-sky" form of idealism which I find incompatible with the
essential pragmatism of Satanism). And to reiterate what I said above, if
some Satanists want to satisfy themselves with such dreams, they may, so
long as they don't identify them with the aims of the Church of Satan, which
are emphatically not political, nor are they idealistic.]

Stewart: The political and real ideal of Satanism was set forth over 200
years ago and is rooted in the concept of Freedom. Specific examples of
those Freedoms were built into the Constitution of the United States:
freedom of speech, religion, the press, and assembly and petition.

Peter: [We Satanists tend to define the United States as the world's first
"Satanic Republic."

Peter: But you should note that the "founding fathers" did not originally
grant freedom to everyone - it was thought to be a "right" only for those
whom they deemed worthy and capable of intelligent ability to exercise such
freedoms - which originally excluded people such as slaves and women. Thus,
they weren't giving everyone equality, but were advocating freedom for
people whom they defined as equals in ability and capability, an important
distinction that has been lost on many who want to interpret their wisely
constructed governmental structure as being "egalitarian."]

Stewart: Are we to accept any less from an organization, specifically a
Satanic one that supposedly holds the Self sacred, than we demand from our
government? I think not!

Peter: [The Church of Satan is not a political state, but a corporation, and
does not pretend to operate as does the United States government. In
practice, we who administer the organization do as Anton LaVey mandated - we
seek out the assistance of individuals of superior ability to assist in our
goal, which is the dissemination of the philosophy synthesized by Anton
LaVey. This corporation is NOT an autonomous collective, nor is it a
republic or a democracy, and the members have no final say in how it is run.
The members may state their opinions (and should do so, according to one of
our "Rules of the Earth," only when we solicit them). But we who run this
show are under no obligation to act in any way other than as we see fit.
During his life, Anton LaVey was the bottom line for decisions concerning
how the Church of Satan was run. As a member of his Council of Nine for many
years, he often sought my view on matters of import, but he always made his
own final decisions and took the responsibility for them. He picked some of
us to carry on this responsibility, and to do so with the same authority
which he wielded. We do not claim to be doing otherwise, and if people have
joined us under the illusion that they will share in the running of this
corporation simply by paying $100, then they have deluded themselves and are
invited to tender their resignations immediately.]

Stewart: Two hundred years ago, a group of people dedicated to "Nature's
god" looked at the tyranny that they were forced to live with and decided
that such tyranny was no longer to be tolerated or accepted. They pledged
themselves, at the cost of "their lives, fortunes and sacred honor," to
freedom from the tyranny of the "Christian King of Great Britain." The
government they formed in the midst of Revolution was built on principles
Satanists claim as their own: Liberty, Equity and Unity. Liberty: Do as Thou
Wilt. Equity: all have an equal right to Liberty. Unity: those who practice
the principles of Liberty and Equity come together to preserve them,
wherever and whenever they are threatened.

Peter: [Dealt with above - they deemed a select group capable of exercising
these freedoms.]

Stewart: Again, the reader who is paying attention will note that nowhere in
that Satanic ideal will you find anything of the Fascist ideal. Indeed, the
two are anathema to each other. [Depending upon how one defines each of
these ideals - which you treat as absolutes, but which are not.]

Stewart: On an ironic note, it is that very freedom and liberalism that the
Fascist faction finds so abhorrent, that allows the Satanic organization
that they infect to exist! "All religions are equal under the law. The State
should not interfere." Liberals say this.

Peter: [If one is not a member of the "ruling class," but is actually part
of a minority faction in a pluralistic society, then advocating that
"everyone be treated equally under the law" may guarantee that you will have
a maximum amount of personal freedom (if there aren¹t other "power factors"
at work - like wealth). Of course the amount of freedom depends upon the
laws of the society in which one lives and we recognize that special
interest groups often jostle to get more of the "pie" via handouts and
privileges established via state mechanisms) As an aside, Satanists know
that there are no "natural rights" as the concept of rights requires someone
or something to be doling them out, and in the past this is usually
considered to be some God. The only "rights" one has are those given by the
laws of the governmental structure under which you live, and ultimately,
even these devolve into what you may attain for yourself using whatever
personal power you might have. That is why the rich get away with so much
more, as their wealth gives them power and hence, "more rights" in a society
ruled by lawyers and not justice. However, if you belonged to the "ruling
class" you might have a very different perspective. It is true that
self-identified Satanists are currently as I described above, a minority in
a pluralistic society. But what if they achieved a position of being the
"ruling class"? How would clever self-declared Satanists run a government?
What would they advocate? How would they control the masses? This could be a
fine question which could be dealt with in a novel of speculative fiction,
as it is not likely to happen in reality. But, we do know that the people
who really understand how to exercise power on the highest of human levels,
regardless of whatever philosophy they spew as their cover, are actually
maintaining their power by behaving in accordance with the true nature of
the human species, and are thus de facto Satanists.]

Stewart: It can be seen that the ideals of the Fascist have nothing in
common with the ideals of the Satanist, yet here we have a Fascist faction
infecting a Satanic organization.

Peter: [No, it is certainly not true that we have a "Fascist faction
infecting" our Church of Satan. You assert this as fact without offering any
concrete evidence.]

Stewart: What is to be done? The members must either take back the
organization, or they must accept the fact that their organization has been
usurped and conform to the new ideology for conform these Fascists surely
try to make you do! Or they separate themselves and form a new faction. Or
they walk away from the public movement all together. The question I put to
the reader is this: which action is the correct action?

Peter: [It is not the business of the administrators to attempt to argue you
and many of your respondents to this project out of their misprision
regarding this false contention that there is a faction of fascists which
has usurped the Church of Satan. You are wrong. Perhaps now you might be
seeing that you¹ve made an error in your assertions. But, if your
self-proclaimed "anti-fascism clique" (the only "faction" which we
administrators see).....

Peter: .....feels strongly enough in their belief of this fiction, then we
invite all of you to send in your resignations immediately (please use the
San Diego PO Box so that we can close your files with utmost efficiency).
You are advocating that members of the Church of Satan "take back" a
corporation which does not belong to them.

Peter: That sort of "coup" is not possible, and those who advocate such will
not be tolerated as members by this administration. You are hereby advised
to immediately follow your own advice: separate yourselves and form a "new
faction." Your "one true way" attempt to force the entire membership of the
Church of Satan to conform to your opinions is not welcome. It is ironic
that throughout history this has always been the cry of those who want to
establish their own tyranny - the claim to advocate "liberation," which
actually paves the way towards establishing a hegemony which favors their
own special interests. Remember Robespierre? Probably not, else some
perspective would have crept into this "project." So, if any of you has the
"courage of your convictions" we should expect to see your departure, as you
cannot change our methods, which we continue to use exactly as Anton LaVey
mandated we should.

Peter: Additionally, I found it amusing that this whole "project" is spent
railing against the "evils" of fascism. When viewed in a broader
perspective, it simply smacks of jumping on the "politically correct"
bandwagon - "We may be Satanists, but we aren't fascists - heavens no!"

Peter: Such is the usual course of action for those who can't bear to be
without a "goodguy badge." And, as Dr. LaVey pointed out, all wearers of
goodguy badges need an audience - hence the "project" satisfies this dictum.

Stewart: Your concluding paragraph above has the tenor, if not the literary
skills, of missives I recall reading which date from 1975. They were written
by a self-righteous Michael Aquino who had convinced himself that the Church
of Satan had sold-out on its principles. LaVey pointed out to him that he
really didn't understand those principles in the first place and really
didn¹t understand how the organization as a whole was being run. I am now
saying the same to you and those who share your delusion. In some of the
forwarded email exchanges from the " Tani-clique" preceding this "project,"
I noted a railing against the concept of hierarchy in the Church of Satan -
redefining it into something non-natural and then shooting it down (the same
tactic as is used in this "fascism project").

Peter: The Church of Satan has a natural hierarchy, wherein titles are
granted by its administration on the basis of merit. But these titles aren't
"frozen." If someone screws up and lets us down, their title, and even their
membership, may be revoked. There are currently members who have titles,
including Magisters and Magistras, whom the Council has decided have been a
disgrace to these titles, abusing these tokens of esteem and using them to
browbeat other members, or as convincers for specious contentions. While we
are patient and generally trust that our original estimation of these people
may again prove to be their norm, if such does not happen speedily, then we
will not hesitate to bring to an end these members¹ affiliation with the
Church of Satan.

Peter: And if anyone doubts that what we are doing is not as LaVey planned,
we can offer evidence concerning protocols for this Church from its very
earliest of days which I must admit we've actually been fairly lax in
maintaining amongst the rabble of our membership online. Recall that LaVey
specified in "The Cloven Hoof" that one of the ways for getting ahead in the
Church of Satan was termed "pleasing the boss." As I¹ve seen in some email
exchanges from this clique, that last word seems to have bothered some of
you. I would posit that there were some less-than-positive employment
situations in the past for those who feel this way. LaVey did see himself as
the head of his Church, though this does not mean that this position meant
anything more or less than it could in a group whose members join and leave
voluntarily. He expected his members and appointed representatives to
instinctually know the boundaries between "Church business," and the
personal "life matters" that always remained up to each individual. Those
who fail to be able to make this distinction will be called to task. In
matters of their own lives, Church of Satan members have complete
sovereignty - they are their own bosses (to paraphrase a current pop tune
lyric, "We ain't the boss of thee"). Members of the Church of Satan have
always been expected to treat each other as "ladies and gentlemen."

Peter: Additionally, those who work at administering the organization ARE
part of a corporate hierarchy, and they are expected to act accordingly.
That includes people who are granted the privilege of representing the
Church of Satan - it comes with specific responsibilities, and if these are
not willingly accepted, then the privilege may honorably be refused. Once
accepted, if these responsibilities are abused, then the position is
revoked. Over the course of the history of our Church, there have often been
times when people had to lay down their titles as they could not continue to
honor the responsibilities which came with them. Did one of our "founding
fathers," General George Washington, confer with all of his soldiers before
he made tactical decisions? No. He consulted with his hand-picked trusted
advisors, then made his choice based on his own evaluations of the facts and
the opinions he received by request. And he expected adherence to his
decisions about this situation in which all were voluntarily involved. That
is the natural way an organized meritocratic group (which seeks to attain a
common goal) works. It is not anarchic, and the leader (boss) does not waste
time soliciting the thoughts of all involved - only the ideas of those who
count in his estimation. That is how LaVey ran the Church of Satan, and that
is how we continue to run the Church of Satan. If any of you are peeved
because you haven't earned a place amongst those whose opinions count, you
only have yourselves to blame.

Peter: For the edification of those who are "anti-hierarchy," we include an
excerpt from "The Cloven Hoof" which delineated precisely how it was
expected that Church of Satan members should deal with each other. LaVey
promoted this ideal, and we are certain that he would be ashamed if he could
witness the sorry spectacle we've had the misfortune of viewing as it takes
place in chat rooms and on Usenet.

Peter:Hail Satan!
Magister Peter H. Gilmore For High Priestess Barton and the rest of the
Council of Nine

UNQUOTE

[Tani Jantsang ©]

Post by Tani Jantsang ©
Tyagi -
Note: this is a copy of an email given to various people by Stewart (Tim
Stewart Epperhart)). It is now unaltered, what was in the email Tim gave
people to see, is here with NO OTHER comments on it. Tim did not know how
to obtain "full headers" or anything like that. Please NOTE that the "new
website" referred to in here by Gilmore was one that was put up FOR
STEWART by someone else that is not involved in any of this. He may have
paid for the work.
It is perculiar that they'd butt into what Stewart wanted to do - which
was very similar to what Jeff DeBoo had been doing longer than Stewart
(who never heard of Deboo!). Gilmore was asked to view this by the Gidney
couple or by Ygraine Gidney alone. In fact, the actual UNEDITED articles
Stewart had for his Project One were posted on alt.satanism BEFORE anyone
connected to Tani saw them. They were POSTS!
Next thing, Stewart came into #satanmuse where Tani and many others were
having fun and he asked them for essays for his project. He also told
everyone what happened when he asked for the same essays from certain
other people in the clique that contained the Gidneys, the Davises,
Ventrue, "Dr. Mengele" (his nick), the Nagy couple and a few others.
It is assumed that COS members can do projects if they feel like it -
Stewarts project was like Jeff DeBoo's stuff, only Stewret never heard of
DeBoo. The Project was on "Is Fascism Satanic." What is wrong with
collecting essays on this subvject? Why in the world would the Gidneys ask
Gilmore to look at what Stewart wrote - and why would Gilmore chastise
Stewart about it? Why would he put the blame on any of it on Tani when
Stewart ON HIS OWN posted about this project before Tani helped him get
essays from various people. That is ALL that Tani did, in fact. HELPED HIM
GET ESSAYS.
EMAIL - quote
On Mon, 28 Aug 2000 08:26:36 GMT "Tim Epperhart"
Peter: Dear Mr. Stewart (Epperhart): I recently was asked by some members
to view your new website, specifically the section dealing with your
project regarding "fascism."
Peter: Since we (the administration of the Church of Satan and Anton LaVey
himself) have long considered this to be a dead issue (we had articles in
"The Black Flame" which dealt with this over a course of several years), I
wasn't inclined to spend the time. However, I was told that you present
erroneous information about the Church of Satan as if it were factual, and
that claim did require investigation. I found it to be true. I note that
your project essentially consisted of sending out an email letter and then
gathering and posting responses. I counted the responses, and they were
written by less than twenty individuals. Since the Church of Satan
consists of many thousands of members, very few of whom are online, if
this was intended to be a comprehensive "survey," it certainly fails. In
actuality it is only a reflection of the opinions of online individuals
who are in direct contact with you and who chose to respond.
Peter: By any statistical standards, this makes your project meaningless,
if it is meant to convey information regarding the Church of Satan.
Peter: You are not an administrator of the Church of Satan, nor are any of
the people who responded to you (a number of whom aren't even members of
the Church of Satan). So, you personally should have borne such facts in
mind when making the broad generalizations in your own introduction and
conclusion to the emails which you received in response to your letter.
But it is clear that you did not. You assume that you have some knowledge
about the Church of Satan at large, its membership and its practices, and
this is completely erroneous.
Peter: My general impressions concerning these emails (save for the very
sensible response by "Wooki") is that a straw man is being established
(the concept that there is some kind of "fascist faction" which has a hand
in controlling the Church of Satan) and then knocked down.
Peter: If indeed there is a "fascist faction," neither you nor any of your
respondents spent any time in listing the members of this group by name or
listing their numbers, nor is any time spent in quoting any of their works
which would prove their agenda - which you state to be the intention to
force other Church of Satan members to "agree with them or leave the
Church of Satan."
Peter: If you cannot prove that a substantial percentage of the membership
of the Church of Satan has preached a specific political agenda (namely
"fascism") and then demanded that all of the other members must agree with
this or leave, then this project has no validity.
Peter: It is simply what it is: a handful of people shooting the breeze
about a topic. It is a collection of opinions, and we all know that it is
said that "opinions are indeed like assholes - everyone has
one...etcetera."
Peter: Let me examine the introduction and conclusion which you wrote to
bracket the solicited emails. I have quoted this text directly from your
site, and my questions and comments are interpolated and will be enclosed
in brackets. My questions are rhetorical and what I state is not intended
to fuel debate. My purpose is to make an offer to you and those who think
as you do, and you will come across it in due course.
---------------------------------------------------
PROJECT 1
Stewart: By: Timothy Stewart Epperhart - "Wolf At Hart" The successes of
fascism easily make people lose all perspective and result in their
forgetting, or being ignorant of the actual conditions which made the
strengthening and the victory of fascism possible.
Note brackets, this is Peter's text.
Peter: [This is what is called a "sweeping generalization," as any high
school writing teacher would point out. Detailed evidence is required to
support such a claim, and unfortunately none is supplied by you or your
respondents in all that is to follow. What are the "successes" and
"victory" of fascism, particularly when we all know that fascist states
have, for the most part, fallen? ]
Stewart: Introduction: First of all, I'm going to allow the readers of
this document to understand that this project came about from a simple
letter and correspondence over E-mail; Initially my intentions were set on
making an in depth article with the help of some acquaintances, and in
some cases non-acquaintances if that was their choice: And yes, there was
choice. Speak up and be heard: or shut up!
Peter: [This reveals your agenda: you DEMAND participation in your
project - that people MUST come argue in your "sandbox," and then you
dismiss any who don't think it worthy of participation and tell them to be
silent. Sounds rather "fascistic" to me. It could be that many people
wouldn't think you have the credentials to be capable of handling such a
project with the requisite objectivity, let alone the literary and
editorial skills needed, and opted out for that reason.]
Stewart: Here is the Original Letter: I am going to analyze the "ideal of
Fascism" that we see within the Satanic movement at the present time. I
asked for both sides and hoped for an historically objective account.
Peter: [You asked whom for both sides? Did you contact any members of the
Church of Satan who have claimed to be attempting to make this
organization a fascist organization?.....
Stewart, I believe you perhaps should have come forward with the
information you got from your contact on satannet - the one who KNOWS who
they are and who told you some of their names, or just provided them
yourself with logs to prove it or whatever else you have. You sure the
hell came forth STRONGLY with this - and at that time I thought you were
one of them lol!! SOMETHING must have made you write it - and whoever
imagines I had A THING to do with it, better screw their heads on tighter.
I didn't even know about it. Hell, Valinda knew about it 1 month before I
did. MANY did. That would have been interesting if you provided proof. My
whole angle on this shit is that there is nothing political going on
because these people are political idiots. My whole contention is (and I
know this) that their fetish is SEXUAL. That their desire is based on
emotional rage as an impetus. They aren't Nazis or fascists. They are
idiots.
Peter: .....Essentially, I doubt that you could have, as there aren't any
members who are attempting to do this.....
Peter: .....The Church of Satan has always been politically pragmatic -
I've said it, LaVey has said it. The Church of Satan does not dictate the
politics of its members, and they are (and have always been) free to
choose whatever suits their personal needs. For the record, those outside
the Church of Satan have, from its inception, accused it of all manner of
politics: communism, fascism, anarchism, liberalism, conservatism - and
just about anything else you can think of, all of which are mutually
exclusive. What IS clear, is that journalists who have an "axe to grind"
against the Church of Satan have always accused it of advocating a
political system which is one they personally abhor - thus the Church of
Satan plays the role of "devil" to them in whatever arena of human thought
they wish to explore.]
Stewart: The statements made by Magistrate Nadramia in her "speculation on
similarities between Fascism and Satanism" are noted and should be viewed
http://www.apodion.com/vad/cos/s_n_Nazi.shtml (It is also in "Is Fascism
Satanic" on www.geocities.com/satanicreds/
Peter: [This article is still relevant (and was heartily endorsed by Anton
LaVey - which doesn't require that you do likewise), and it was
interesting to note how some of your respondents supplied their own
definitions for fascism - essentially putting a spin on what Magistra
Nadramia had said very clearly, then argued against it. More "straw man"
tactics, which are among the methodologies used by demagogues.]
Peter: [Some of your respondents did attempt to clarify your error of
conflating these terms. That you said this is an example, however, of a
very real "herd" definition of these terms. In the 1960's the radical left
preached a philosophy of "peace and love" which really boiled down to the
concept of leveling everything to being "equal." This "philosophy"
championed the abandoning of any rational criteria for evaluation of
anything, and the embracing of everything as being of equal value, which
thus fostered mediocritization of every level of human cultural endeavor.
We are still living in the fallout of this mode of thinking, as the then
young people who espoused these ideas have grown to adulthood and are now
the "establishment" (those adults whom they considered to be the enemy
during the sixties). This "egalitarianism" (for that is what they called
it) was manifested in the cultural arena with concepts such as: "Anything
can be defined as being art and all such works must be considered to have
equal validity."....
Peter: .....Thus, some random splashes on a canvas were considered an
equal achievement to the Sistine Chapel, a mud hut was held up as being
equivalent to Versailles, and so on. This principle of "indiscrimination"
lead to all other fields of achievement. A janitor was considered the
equivalent to a physicist, a novelist was now the peer of one who scrawled
graffiti on a bathroom wall and so on. Those who opposed this leveling
were accused of being "fascists" or "Nazis," without regard for what these
terms might have meant in their actual historical origins and practice.
After all, it was the mid-sixties, twenty years after the ending of a war
that none of these folks were even alive to have experienced. How quickly
past orthodoxies are forgotten. The Church of Satan was created in the
mid-sixties and stood in contradistinction to these ideas, which were
generally defined as being "liberal." .....
Peter: .....From the time of the very foundation of the organization,
Anton LaVey and the members of the Church of Satan were appalled at this
societal trend, which favored the elimination of concrete criteria for the
evaluation of just about anything and instead advocated that any kind of
merit was illusory - and thus that the act of evaluation was an "evil"
practice. "Discrimination" became a "bad word," when previously it had
meant "sound judgment." Well, the Church of Satan never shied away from
embracing things which society considered "evil," and thus it championed a
rebirth of strict criteria for evaluation of all areas of human endeavor,
and quite radically placed the responsibility for this squarely on the
shoulders of each individual. Thus, there was no "appeal to authority" for
Satanists - each person held the responsibility for being their own
authority. For this reason, we were called "fascists" and "Nazis" - NOT
because of any advocation of the sociopolitical ends of these historical
movements......
Peter: .....Satanists today do not shy away from being called these names
for this very same reason. We champion merit and superior achievement in
all areas, and are the enemy of enshrined mediocrity. We abhor what we see
as a society that is a rampant "mediocracy." The masses (in the sixties as
well as of today) don't know what the terms "Nazi" and "fascist" really
mean in a historical sense. These are used as epithets against anyone with
whom they don't agree. Most frequently they are employed by "politically
correct" intellectuals who use "Nazi" and "fascist" in the same manner
that Joe McCarthy used the word "communist" and the Christian Inquisitors
used the word "witch" - to discredit the validity of the accused's point
of view and brand them a "heretic/thought criminal." Because of the
continuing decline in the level of education, even amongst those who
pursue degrees at major universities, we can expect that there will be no
real broad understanding of what the terms "Nazi" and "fascist" really
mean. These will simply remain derogatory epithets used against those
perceived to be "the bad guys.".....
Peter: .....Satanists are aware of what impact words and images have on
the herd, and thus use them to their advantage. It should be clear to
anyone who has observed human society that there is an all-pervading
interest on the part of the contemporary general public with the Third
Reich. This commentary to you would grow to gigantic proportions should I
take the time to examine the reasons for this (most of which should be
obvious). Anyone with cable television or who happens to visit movie
theatres will see that the Nazis are now the standard archetype in
entertainment for what the masses deem to be "Evil" - and they are
fascinated with this and fetishize it to no end. Do you watch "The History
Channel" (whose emblem is a carved, angular letter "H")? We jokingly say
that this really stands for "Hitler" not "History" as over 50% of their
programming is Third Reich related. Yes, it's a HERD thing.
It should come as no surprise to any Satanist, that certain savvy
Satanists who make their living entertaining the masses (like Boyd Rice or
Brian Warner) use the public's obsession with this material for their own
ends......
Peter: .....Hence both have used symbols and techniques derived from Third
Reich spectacles (which were undeniably powerful means for motivating
masses of people) for the purpose of stimulating their audiences and thus
putting money in their pockets. Is this advocating political fascism? No.]
Stewart: ..initially had specific criteria which are notable. The Nazis
are well known for their treatment of the Jews in their area, which they
exterminated for being "a weaker race." Scientists do acknowledge a
similarity in "Jewish People" or Semites, via gene analysis, but such
analysis didn't exist during those times; needless to say, the Nazis
viewed the Jews not as a religion, but as a race. The best solution the
Nazis came up with for so-called stratification, was to adopt the most
potent political system at their disposal: Fascism. This was Nazism.
Peter: [In point of fact, "stratification" was not the goal of the German
fascists. They sought political power and needed a scapegoat for the
economic woes of many people.....
Peter: .....They chose the Jews, since many were economically successful,
and galvanized much of the populace into following them through this
hatred. They also targeted communists, whom they felt were enemies to
their system of National Socialism. Once the Nazis took power, their first
order of business was to imprison political enemies, many of whom were
communists. These were the people incarcerated in concentration camps,
long before any program was established to put Jews in these camps simply
because of their being Jewish. In fact, the German government worked with
Zionist movements to export Jews to the area now known as Israel, even
helping these people to evade British blockades in their quest to emigrate
to their ancestral "homeland." The Holocaust happened later, at a time of
greater desperation for the Nazi State.]
Peter: [This statement is complete bunk. Which Satanists said this and
where?]
Stewart: Also influencing them is that the Swastika is looked upon as
being "Evil" like the Sigil of Baphomet. The Swastika was considered a
very atrocious thing. What the Swastika actually meant in the past has no
bearing on any of this, regardless of Herd Misconceptions.
Peter: [The herd¹s misconceptions have EVERYTHING to do with how a
Satanist uses symbols to influence the herd. That should be obvious. The
folks who run around today and try to reclaim the swastika as a "good"
symbol have totally failed to supplant the herd's identification of this
as a sign of "ultimate Evil," far more potent to them than the Sigil of
Baphomet. Satanists take note of this fact. When dealing with mass
consciousness, original meanings are not of any importance, but the
current meanings are all important - which was the import of my discussion
of the terms "Nazi" and "fascist" above.]
Stewart: "Amidst the Hitlerian concept of strength through joy!" -ASL, The
Satanic Bible. Indeed, Hitler was no fool when he offered the people
freedom on a personal level, but the way that it was done was wrong and is
opposed to Church of Satan doctrine.
Peter: [Here is the crux of what is a major misprision that exists in
almost all of the people who responded to your project. It is that they
identify with the herd, and not the rulers of these projected "idealistic"
fascist societies.]
Peter: [Fascism in actuality is a doctrine that requires the submission of
individuals to the goals of the state. It is a collectivist philosophy,
suppressing individualism, which states that each person should sacrifice
himself to an abstract principle, which is treated as a mythologically
sacred entity - THE STATE.
Peter: The past supposed "glories" of the state become the sacred icons in
what is in actuality a new religion. Fascism is clearly a means for
controlling herds (and one that was effective). When this doctrine is
placed into practice, there has to be somebody who tells the herd what the
needs of THE STATE are to be, since THE STATE is just an abstraction - it
does not exist. Here enters the "Ruling Class" - otherwise known as the
Nazi Party, The Communist Party, the Khmer Rouge, and so on. These rulers
claim to embody THE STATE, and tell the masses what is the will of THE
STATE, and they reign much like the ancient priesthoods, who held their
power by being the only ones capable of communicating to people the "will
of the Gods." These people are a de facto "aristocracy," which uses THE
STATE for its raison d'etre, just as the latter day heads of some of the
communist states handed down THE WILL OF THE PEOPLE as their excuse for
controlling their massed subjects. These rulers are not subject to
sacrificing themselves to THE STATE, because they are the ones who, as
embodiments of THE STATE, choose who is to be sacrificed (and they don't
pick themselves - though sometimes they do pick their cohorts who are
getting a bit too cocky). These kinds of rulers now use terms more
palatable to our century, whose masses won't buy such old excuses as "the
divine right of kings," but their means are identical. Of course, these
rulers are often foiled by subsequent "prophets," who convince the masses
that they, rather than the current rulers, embody THE STATE, and so
counter-revolutions occur and the former leaders are usually dispatched
with violence.
Peter: "Don't pay any attention to the man behind the curtain!" said the
glowering face in a fountain of fire (THE STATE/THE WILL OF THE PEOPLE),
hoping that Dorothy and crew wouldn't notice who really is pulling the
strings. But Toto (the beast) pulled aside the curtain. Now we might begin
to see how Satanists factor in to this equation. The Satanist should
always be aware of who is really running the situation in which he finds
himself. Satanists do not see themselves as being part of the herd and
naturally resist any attempts to be forced to live under any regimes that
would make them part of the controlled herd. However, Satanists really
don't care how the herd is being controlled, so long as they themselves
aren't subject to being controlled along with them. If forced by
circumstance to be part of such a governmental situation (and I caution
the reader to examine how much he really knows about the machinations of
his current nation of residence), the clever Satanist would either be the
person who pulls the strings, or, more likely, his associate. Being the
one behind a "leader" is generally a safer position, as the leader is
always a target, while the advisors often survive changes in "top dogs."
Peter: Some Satanists who are "political idealists" might envision a
future wherein Satanists are the "man behind the curtain" directing the
herd to support their own personal indulgences - the herd sacrificing
themselves to a ruling, but necessarily hidden, Satanic "elite." Frankly,
I see this as a political pipedream. Running a state would leave little
time for personal indulgences and enjoying one's life. In contemporary
Western society, the only political factions likely to attempt create a
fascistic system (as meant by the original meanings of the terms) are the
right-wing Christians (and the film, "The Handmaid's Tale" provides a
chilling visualization of this possibility). I think it far more
productive to advocate a system which guarantees freedom for the exercise
of many points of view (so long as it doesn't require me to pay for
wastrels who want a free ride).
Peter: But we in the administration of the Church of Satan do not control
the thoughts of our members, so if some of them want to toy with these
"political dreams," that is their business. As long as they don't drag our
Church into any political agendas, their personal pursuits remain just
that: personal.]
Stewart: Herd mentality is a sin in CoS doctrine and it is noted: how else
would the Nazis be able to exterminate a race? On a personal level? Was
this a way for an ideal form of stratification?
Peter: [Did anyone say it was?]
Stewart: Is murder stratification, and would these actions be "justified"
because they were founded upon a Fascistic point of view?
Peter: [That humans kill one another is a part of the way our species
functions. When nations come into conflict with each other, and this
escalates beyond economic exchanges, what in peacetime would be termed
"murder" then becomes justified in the hands of the military. How the
conflicts finally pan out is one of the means for large-scale
stratification in our species.]
Stewart: E-Mail Observations and information to
any case. Thank you for participation. Hail Satan! Hail the Church of
Satan! Timothy Stewart
Stewart: Stewart's commentary: Now we come to the end where it is
necessary to evaluate these responses and fill in the blanks.
Stewart: I am sure some of the points raised will hit home with many
readers, both those who are members of the CoS and those who are not. Some
of what you've read you probably already understood since history is rife
with examples of the affects of Fascism and it is fairly easy to see, in
those examples, just what kind of people Fascism appeals to.
Peter: [Since multi-level definitions of "fascism" were not explored in
this project (you and your respondents missed its "common-parlance" usage
and chose to concentrate only on some of its historical definitions), the
analyses in the postings on your site concerning what form of
attractions/repulsions it may have for certain types of individuals do not
even begin to qualify as being exhaustive or even relevant.]
Stewart: Regardless of the differences between the "moral foundations" of
those Fascists in the past and the present Fascist infection, as I see it,
they share the same intentions.
Peter: [It is curious that you use the word "infection" here, yet no
effort has been made on your site to demonstrate just what is being
infected, by whom, and to what extent.
Peter: So, using this term is an attempt at pushing emotional buttons
without justification - not rational argument.]
Stewart: That is, to form an "All is One" union or dictatorship at the
highest levels in the organization that would trickle down, via
brainwashing, and a "toe the line or get out" party line to the
rank-and-file.
Peter: [The Church of Satan has never required anything of its members
except that they hold the writings of Anton LaVey as their basis for
membership in this organization. Members are free to build their own
personal viewpoints on this foundation. If people have substantial
disagreements with LaVey's work, or wish to promote something else as the
basis for Satanism, like the "dark doctrines,".....
Peter: .....then they should not be members and should tender their
resignations immediately.
Peter: There is no "brainwashing" in this organization - we don't have the
time for such labor intensive activities, which would garner minimal
results, and which are counter to our basic principles.
Peter: As from the beginning, we are a cabal of very independent
individuals who share a philosophy synthesized by Anton LaVey as our point
of commonality. And we will not try to force our members into some kind of
lock-step unity in their personal choices for building upon LaVey's
foundation. However, one thing I see in common amongst many of the
responders to your letter, is that they usually do identify themselves as
a self-proclaimed "faction" who center themselves on the ideas of Tani
Jantsang, not those of Anton LaVey.
Peter: Even if this is not admitted, any casual observer of the writings
of these people makes this very clear.
Peter: And, from their recent activities in chat rooms and on Usenet, it
is abundantly apparent that this clique is set on making the Church of
Satan a "one true way" organization based on their interpretations of
issues of sociology, politics, and biology.
Peter: This "faction" clearly plays "Inquisition" and labels those members
of the Church of Satan who disagree with them as "Klippoths".....
Peter: .....(remember, Joe McCarthy and the Inquisitors as mentioned
above?), and is now working to make their opinions the basis for the
Church of Satan. I represent the administration of the Church of Satan and
state that we will not tolerate this attempt at turning our organization
into a totalitarian organization whose sole aim is the promotion of the
agendas of this small group of individuals. These people followed their
own paths in the past, and didn't require that others kowtow to them.
Peter: However, particularly since these folk are active "online," lately
their ideas seem less and less based on the work of LaVey, and
consequently more and more demanding that all other members of the Church
of Satan whom they encounter must agree with them.
Peter: If they find individual members who disagree,.....
Peter: .....they have stated that they will attempt to drive them out.
This is not acceptable, as it is not the business of this clique to
determine who is or who is not a member of the Church of Satan. They are
not administrators of this organization, and they are not arbiters of
membership.
Peter: As Dr. LaVey has said, when ice melts, it is called water. So, if
this clique has decided that they have a new foundation for their concepts
of Satanism (and Tani herself has said there is little of Satanism, by her
definition, in the Church of Satan).....
Peter: .....then they are all invited to leave immediately and found their
own unique organization.]
Stewart: The reader who is paying attention will note the similarity in
this (fascist) doctrine and outlook to the early Christian doctrine of
"Convert or Die."
Peter: [Essentially this defines the tactics used by the Tani clique
(Agree with our way of "correcting" LaVey or be branded a
"Klippoth"),.....
Peter: .....NOT the Church of Satan's administration, which accepts a
rather diverse set of means derived from LaVey¹s writings.]
Stewart: The proponents of this Organizational Fascism
Peter: [Whom you have still failed to identify.]
Stewart: cannot practice that doctrine in full in the real world because
those in the past that objected to this tyranny bought our freedom from
that fate with their blood.
Peter: [This reads like a threat to the straw man of "proponents of
Organizational Fascism," that those who disagree with them will do so
"with their blood." That is typical rhetorical nonsense, not rational
debate - a tactic used so effectively by Dr. Goebbels, I might add.]
Stewart: Were it still a valid option, however, the vehemence of the
Satanic Fascist faction
Peter: [Some evidence of this "vehemence," please.]
Stewart: makes it fairly plain that it would be a method joyously utilized
by them to silence the opposition! "You better shut up!" "You better drop
this project." "You can leave if you don't like it."
Peter: [Has any member of the administration of the Church of Satan told
any of the people who've responded to this project to "shut up"?.....
Peter: .....Has any member of the administration told you to "drop this
project"?.....
Peter: .....(Whether any of us thinks that it is a project that has been
executed with any skill is another matter, but we generally don't offer
our opinions unless asked, as per one of our "Rules of the Earth.") And
concerning the corporate entity, which is the Church of Satan, it IS
thoroughly within our rights as administrators of the corporation to tell
any members that, if they disagree with how we are running the
organization, then they SHOULD "leave if they don't like it." We are also
empowered to terminate their titles and membership at will. Membership in
the Church of Satan does not grant you rights of usage of property which
belongs to the corporation, nor does it give you anything beyond what the
administration of the corporation chooses to give to you.]
Stewart: This doctrinal similarity with the avowed enemies of the Satanic
movement in the past, is a large contributing factor to the feeling, on my
part and on the part of many, that these so-called Nazi Revisionist
Satanists have worn out their welcome. Some still pose the question of
whether there is, indeed, a Fascist faction in the CoS.
Peter: [Again, you've presented no evidence whatsoever that there exists a
faction of "Nazi Revisionist Satanists" in the Church of Satan, much less
that such a mythical faction has any power in the organization.]
Stewart: What of stratification? Would that not be a definition of what is
going on within the organization?
Peter: [Stratification is a term coined by Anton LaVey to signify how
nature allows everything to "seek its own level." It is not something to
be advocated - it happens of its own accord. In human social situations
there are many strata - though here in the West for years this was
(mistakenly) thought to be invalid because "democracy" supposedly
dissolved the old formal class structures. In reality, classes founded on
economic status were the new "strata," though some mobility is offered
when individuals who were entrepreneurs garnered enough wealth to move out
of their original stratum. In the past, there were still issues for these
"upwardly mobile" individuals concerning their social status since
families coming from "old money" were associated with "cultured
aristocracy" while their "new money" was pegged as being part of "crass
materialism" (and there was some evidence to support these stereotypes).
And stratification is always happening in the organization, as such cannot
be avoided.]
Stewart: It is an interesting question. I would ask the reader to keep the
the goal of Fascism is "sameness." In no way does "sameness" equate with
stratification.
Peter: [The goal of fascism is to weld a group of people together towards
a common goal - support of a state - which itself is an illusion created
by the rulers of that state. The "sameness" is the common purpose, and
such has always been the means for totalitarians whether they are called
fascists, or clergy, or commissars. This has nothing ostensibly to do with
stratification, which ideally is the recognition of natural differences
depending upon merit, but can be seen practically in how well the clever
"know the ropes" of the system in which they live. People rise and fall,
or remain static in their society. Like seeks like. As Satanists, we
embrace the principle that there are those who naturally are leaders, and
those who are followers. There are masters and there are slaves, and quite
a few shades in between. It is a delusion amongst many who embrace
Satanism that by adopting this philosophy, they are immediately "masters,"
and are thus now equal to all of the other "masters." This is an error.
Satanists know that those who embrace Satanism treat themselves as their
own Gods - making the satisfaction of their individual selves the standard
of value for their lives. However, only the naïve would think that amongst
these self-acknowledged Satanists that everyone is automatically in some
kind of "equivalent brotherhood" now that they are calling themselves
"Satanists." Nothing could be further from reality. Embracing Satanism
does not automatically give you advanced creative skills, a lifetime of
hard-won experience, or wisdom garnered from studying the wealth of
information now at our fingertips. You may be "your own god" but you don't
have instant "godhood" in the realm of human endeavor - that is something
only gained through the refined cultivation of whatever talents are yours
by nature. Satanism can be a great "launching pad" for those who are
realists, to see where they stand in their level of personal achievement,
and to rationally decide how to advance themselves in whatever manner they
choose (or not to advance themselves, but to enjoy whatever level they
wish to have). Amongst Satanists, there are some who embrace the
principles of this philosophy and do not feel that they have the
capabilities to make their own horizons, as Nietzsche defined a
characteristic of his superior humans. These honest individuals, under
Satanism, have the choice to personally (and wisely) select their master,
and thus to guarantee that they will get the guidance they desire which
will be beneficial to themselves (unlike unwilling slaves, they are also
free to switch masters should they so choose). Few are honest enough about
themselves to make such a decision. We are thus confronted with a
spectacle of "Satanists" who are all failing the "leaky inner tube test."
They puff themselves up with claims of godhood, when they are, by any
objective standards, really just a bunch of low-grade buffoons who can't
produce anything on a level that could be deemed professional (as low as
many standards for professionalism are these days). Would that they could
honestly look into the mirror and see themselves for who they really are,
and that those who aren't "leaders and innovators" should stop being
pretenders to those thrones. They'd be happier and the fringes of Satanism
would look less ridiculous. However, we do understand the "nature of the
human beast" and thus will do our best to usher these pretentious fools
out of the door of the Church of Satan.]
Stewart: The members of this Fascist faction would have us believe that by
belonging to their faction they are demonstrating some kind of "personal
power." In their eyes, the identification with a political doctrine and
people that sought the elimination of a supposedly "weaker race" invests
them with some feeling of superiority, and they take this to be Satanic.
Peter: [You have offered no evidence for such a faction in the Church of
Satan using this methodology. This is, however, an accurate description of
many white supremacists, and those folk are currently in short supply
amongst our membership. I suggest that this must have something to do with
Anton LaVey's personal Jewish roots, as well as the fact that we don't
embrace racism since it is collectivist thinking and thus not compatible
with the individualist basis for the philosophy of the Church of Satan.]
Stewart: Self-delusion is never a Satanic value,
Peter: [You got that one right!]
Stewart: and self-deluded they are.
Peter: [I'd venture to call this "projection."]
Stewart: Those who posses the "personal power" these would-be Fascists
lust after, feel no need to adopt postures designed to showcase said
power; only the posers feel the need to pose. This is easily proven by a
simple survey of those who practiced political Fascism in the past; it has
never been a political movement of the strong.
Peter: [Real Satanists have confidence and "personal power" as they
determine the course of their lives, to whatever extent is possible in the
society in which they live. There are times when masochists are attracted
to Satanists, and these folk antagonize the Satanist in an attempt to goad
them into exercising their real power (not a postured power). The
Satanist, as LaVey explained, is an Epicurean Sadist, and when such
masochists come-a-calling, the Satanist often says "No" to the symbolic
requests for a "beating," thus turning the masochist's sought after
eustress into distress. But the Satanist's option to say "yes" also
exists, and he can then provide the masochist with the "beating" being
requested, only if it gives the Satanist satisfaction. That some Satanists
use fascist-related imagery to manipulate the herd has nothing to do with
their own sense of efficacy. They don't need it to be bolstered via
symbols of any sort. It is simply a matter of pushing buttons in the mass
(or individual) consciousness for their own ends - as was described above
concerning Boyd Rice and Brian Warner. We all know from history that the
real fascist movements fell from power. BUT, only a fool would ignore the
continued power of their iconography over the popular consciousness.
Hence, you don't see any Satanists advocating neo-fascist political
movements - which are currently the purview of those who feel they have no
power over their lives and are looking for scapegoats to blame for this
powerlessness. The neo-Nazis are generally powerless white folk, who want
to try to do what Hitler did in the past. They are clinging to a sunken
ship. Real fascists today use Jesus and Christian moral righteousness to
make their way to power, blaming those who oppose their morality for the
distress their members feel. Their scapegoats are chosen using their own
morality and faith as the criteria. Satanists, for the most part, clearly
oppose Christian concepts of morality and would also oppose the success of
such movements (unless, perhaps, they have the concession for selling
Christian tchotchkes!).]
Stewart: An interesting aside is that these people are idolizing a system
of thought and practice that would see them as its first victims. No
genuine political Fascist would "suffer a Satanist to live."
Peter: [This is correct, in as much as I've said above, that the only
forces poised to effectively create a fascist state in the current Western
world are those motivated by the right-wing Christian coalition. They'd
love a theocracy, but not one dominated by the Vatican as was the last
such political state. As said above, some "politically idealist" Satanists
might advocate a very different kind of fascism, wherein the goals of the
state are defined by Satanists, and the herd follows them (though this is
really quite a "pie-in-the-sky" form of idealism which I find incompatible
with the essential pragmatism of Satanism). And to reiterate what I said
above, if some Satanists want to satisfy themselves with such dreams, they
may, so long as they don't identify them with the aims of the Church of
Satan, which are emphatically not political, nor are they idealistic.]
Stewart: The political and real ideal of Satanism was set forth over 200
years ago and is rooted in the concept of Freedom. Specific examples of
freedom of speech, religion, the press, and assembly and petition.
Peter: [We Satanists tend to define the United States as the world's first
"Satanic Republic."
Peter: But you should note that the "founding fathers" did not originally
grant freedom to everyone - it was thought to be a "right" only for those
whom they deemed worthy and capable of intelligent ability to exercise
such freedoms - which originally excluded people such as slaves and women.
Thus, they weren't giving everyone equality, but were advocating freedom
for people whom they defined as equals in ability and capability, an
important distinction that has been lost on many who want to interpret
their wisely constructed governmental structure as being "egalitarian."]
Stewart: Are we to accept any less from an organization, specifically a
Satanic one that supposedly holds the Self sacred, than we demand from our
government? I think not!
Peter: [The Church of Satan is not a political state, but a corporation,
and does not pretend to operate as does the United States government. In
practice, we who administer the organization do as Anton LaVey mandated -
we seek out the assistance of individuals of superior ability to assist in
our goal, which is the dissemination of the philosophy synthesized by
Anton LaVey. This corporation is NOT an autonomous collective, nor is it a
republic or a democracy, and the members have no final say in how it is
run. The members may state their opinions (and should do so, according to
one of our "Rules of the Earth," only when we solicit them). But we who
run this show are under no obligation to act in any way other than as we
see fit. During his life, Anton LaVey was the bottom line for decisions
concerning how the Church of Satan was run. As a member of his Council of
Nine for many years, he often sought my view on matters of import, but he
always made his own final decisions and took the responsibility for them.
He picked some of us to carry on this responsibility, and to do so with
the same authority which he wielded. We do not claim to be doing
otherwise, and if people have joined us under the illusion that they will
share in the running of this corporation simply by paying $100, then they
have deluded themselves and are invited to tender their resignations
immediately.]
Stewart: Two hundred years ago, a group of people dedicated to "Nature's
god" looked at the tyranny that they were forced to live with and decided
that such tyranny was no longer to be tolerated or accepted. They pledged
themselves, at the cost of "their lives, fortunes and sacred honor," to
freedom from the tyranny of the "Christian King of Great Britain." The
government they formed in the midst of Revolution was built on principles
Satanists claim as their own: Liberty, Equity and Unity. Liberty: Do as
Thou Wilt. Equity: all have an equal right to Liberty. Unity: those who
practice the principles of Liberty and Equity come together to preserve
them, wherever and whenever they are threatened.
Peter: [Dealt with above - they deemed a select group capable of
exercising these freedoms.]
Stewart: Again, the reader who is paying attention will note that nowhere
in that Satanic ideal will you find anything of the Fascist ideal. Indeed,
the two are anathema to each other. [Depending upon how one defines each
of these ideals - which you treat as absolutes, but which are not.]
Stewart: On an ironic note, it is that very freedom and liberalism that
the Fascist faction finds so abhorrent, that allows the Satanic
organization that they infect to exist! "All religions are equal under the
law. The State should not interfere." Liberals say this.
Peter: [If one is not a member of the "ruling class," but is actually part
of a minority faction in a pluralistic society, then advocating that
"everyone be treated equally under the law" may guarantee that you will
have a maximum amount of personal freedom (if there aren¹t other "power
factors" at work - like wealth). Of course the amount of freedom depends
upon the laws of the society in which one lives and we recognize that
special interest groups often jostle to get more of the "pie" via handouts
and privileges established via state mechanisms) As an aside, Satanists
know that there are no "natural rights" as the concept of rights requires
someone or something to be doling them out, and in the past this is
usually considered to be some God. The only "rights" one has are those
given by the laws of the governmental structure under which you live, and
ultimately, even these devolve into what you may attain for yourself using
whatever personal power you might have. That is why the rich get away with
so much more, as their wealth gives them power and hence, "more rights" in
a society ruled by lawyers and not justice. However, if you belonged to
the "ruling class" you might have a very different perspective. It is true
that self-identified Satanists are currently as I described above, a
minority in a pluralistic society. But what if they achieved a position of
being the "ruling class"? How would clever self-declared Satanists run a
government? What would they advocate? How would they control the masses?
This could be a fine question which could be dealt with in a novel of
speculative fiction, as it is not likely to happen in reality. But, we do
know that the people who really understand how to exercise power on the
highest of human levels, regardless of whatever philosophy they spew as
their cover, are actually maintaining their power by behaving in
accordance with the true nature of the human species, and are thus de
facto Satanists.]
Stewart: It can be seen that the ideals of the Fascist have nothing in
common with the ideals of the Satanist, yet here we have a Fascist faction
infecting a Satanic organization.
Peter: [No, it is certainly not true that we have a "Fascist faction
infecting" our Church of Satan. You assert this as fact without offering
any concrete evidence.]
Stewart: What is to be done? The members must either take back the
organization, or they must accept the fact that their organization has
been usurped and conform to the new ideology for conform these Fascists
surely try to make you do! Or they separate themselves and form a new
faction. Or they walk away from the public movement all together. The
question I put to the reader is this: which action is the correct action?
Peter: [It is not the business of the administrators to attempt to argue
you and many of your respondents to this project out of their misprision
regarding this false contention that there is a faction of fascists which
has usurped the Church of Satan. You are wrong. Perhaps now you might be
seeing that you¹ve made an error in your assertions. But, if your
self-proclaimed "anti-fascism clique" (the only "faction" which we
administrators see).....
Peter: .....feels strongly enough in their belief of this fiction, then we
invite all of you to send in your resignations immediately (please use the
San Diego PO Box so that we can close your files with utmost efficiency).
You are advocating that members of the Church of Satan "take back" a
corporation which does not belong to them.
Peter: That sort of "coup" is not possible, and those who advocate such
will not be tolerated as members by this administration. You are hereby
advised to immediately follow your own advice: separate yourselves and
form a "new faction." Your "one true way" attempt to force the entire
membership of the Church of Satan to conform to your opinions is not
welcome. It is ironic that throughout history this has always been the cry
of those who want to establish their own tyranny - the claim to advocate
"liberation," which actually paves the way towards establishing a hegemony
which favors their own special interests. Remember Robespierre? Probably
not, else some perspective would have crept into this "project." So, if
any of you has the "courage of your convictions" we should expect to see
your departure, as you cannot change our methods, which we continue to use
exactly as Anton LaVey mandated we should.
Peter: Additionally, I found it amusing that this whole "project" is spent
railing against the "evils" of fascism. When viewed in a broader
perspective, it simply smacks of jumping on the "politically correct"
bandwagon - "We may be Satanists, but we aren't fascists - heavens no!"
Peter: Such is the usual course of action for those who can't bear to be
without a "goodguy badge." And, as Dr. LaVey pointed out, all wearers of
goodguy badges need an audience - hence the "project" satisfies this dictum.
Stewart: Your concluding paragraph above has the tenor, if not the
literary skills, of missives I recall reading which date from 1975. They
were written by a self-righteous Michael Aquino who had convinced himself
that the Church of Satan had sold-out on its principles. LaVey pointed out
to him that he really didn't understand those principles in the first
place and really didn¹t understand how the organization as a whole was
being run. I am now saying the same to you and those who share your
delusion. In some of the forwarded email exchanges from the " Tani-clique"
preceding this "project," I noted a railing against the concept of
hierarchy in the Church of Satan - redefining it into something
non-natural and then shooting it down (the same tactic as is used in this
"fascism project").
Peter: The Church of Satan has a natural hierarchy, wherein titles are
granted by its administration on the basis of merit. But these titles
aren't "frozen." If someone screws up and lets us down, their title, and
even their membership, may be revoked. There are currently members who
have titles, including Magisters and Magistras, whom the Council has
decided have been a disgrace to these titles, abusing these tokens of
esteem and using them to browbeat other members, or as convincers for
specious contentions. While we are patient and generally trust that our
original estimation of these people may again prove to be their norm, if
such does not happen speedily, then we will not hesitate to bring to an
end these members¹ affiliation with the Church of Satan.
Peter: And if anyone doubts that what we are doing is not as LaVey
planned, we can offer evidence concerning protocols for this Church from
its very earliest of days which I must admit we've actually been fairly
lax in maintaining amongst the rabble of our membership online. Recall
that LaVey specified in "The Cloven Hoof" that one of the ways for getting
ahead in the Church of Satan was termed "pleasing the boss." As I¹ve seen
in some email exchanges from this clique, that last word seems to have
bothered some of you. I would posit that there were some
less-than-positive employment situations in the past for those who feel
this way. LaVey did see himself as the head of his Church, though this
does not mean that this position meant anything more or less than it could
in a group whose members join and leave voluntarily. He expected his
members and appointed representatives to instinctually know the boundaries
between "Church business," and the personal "life matters" that always
remained up to each individual. Those who fail to be able to make this
distinction will be called to task. In matters of their own lives, Church
of Satan members have complete sovereignty - they are their own bosses (to
paraphrase a current pop tune lyric, "We ain't the boss of thee"). Members
of the Church of Satan have always been expected to treat each other as
"ladies and gentlemen."
Peter: Additionally, those who work at administering the organization ARE
part of a corporate hierarchy, and they are expected to act accordingly.
That includes people who are granted the privilege of representing the
Church of Satan - it comes with specific responsibilities, and if these
are not willingly accepted, then the privilege may honorably be refused.
Once accepted, if these responsibilities are abused, then the position is
revoked. Over the course of the history of our Church, there have often
been times when people had to lay down their titles as they could not
continue to honor the responsibilities which came with them. Did one of
our "founding fathers," General George Washington, confer with all of his
soldiers before he made tactical decisions? No. He consulted with his
hand-picked trusted advisors, then made his choice based on his own
evaluations of the facts and the opinions he received by request. And he
expected adherence to his decisions about this situation in which all were
voluntarily involved. That is the natural way an organized meritocratic
group (which seeks to attain a common goal) works. It is not anarchic, and
the leader (boss) does not waste time soliciting the thoughts of all
involved - only the ideas of those who count in his estimation. That is
how LaVey ran the Church of Satan, and that is how we continue to run the
Church of Satan. If any of you are peeved because you haven't earned a
place amongst those whose opinions count, you only have yourselves to
blame.
Peter: For the edification of those who are "anti-hierarchy," we include
an excerpt from "The Cloven Hoof" which delineated precisely how it was
expected that Church of Satan members should deal with each other. LaVey
promoted this ideal, and we are certain that he would be ashamed if he
could witness the sorry spectacle we've had the misfortune of viewing as
it takes place in chat rooms and on Usenet.
Peter:Hail Satan!
Magister Peter H. Gilmore For High Priestess Barton and the rest of the
Council of Nine
UNQUOTE

[Tani Jantsang ©]

Post by SOD of the CoE!
50041212 viii om Hail Satan!
reviewing initial files in the
2/27/2001 version of "The CoS Files"
-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-

Well, I sent you the most updated one the other day.

Post by SOD of the CoE!
as I once more look through this material (I saw it when it
came out several years ago, receiving the entirety from Egan
of the First Church of Satan), the impression then received
that this was a squabble primarily of ONLINE PARTICIPANTS
from Tani&Co (now "Satanic Reds" apparently) and the CoS

Actually, it was anything but that. It started offline, it spilled online.
Ole (he has his own org and is not relat ed to the SR) - had offline
experiences too.

Post by SOD of the CoE!
once more becomes very clear to me; my memory is that I was
so thoroughly disgusted with how Tani Jantsang takes the
expressions of others out of context and misrepresents
them in order to then slam them, exaggerating the conflict
which *she* perceives online as "real" beyond the whisps
of threat and fancy actually extant so as to make them seem
different and more dramatic than they actually are that I
abandoned my original review partway through;

That is absolutely not what they are about, Tyagi. And I'd not have even
bothered with ANY of it - I'd have ignored it as I ignored it for years
prior to that and even offline - if not for certain incentives to NOT ignore
it.

I am only now

Post by SOD of the CoE!
returning to this because some portion of what Tani&Co are
promoting appears to be founded in the real world; however,
this hasn't really changed my reaction to what I'm finding
within "The CoS Files" so far -- a persistent drama in
which the allegations are trumped up and adversaries
completely misrepresented and thoroughly confused (what
remains as I continue my exploration of the files is also
to determine if this effect is intentional or just some
kind of innocent but misguided personal exploit).

Then you should read them more carefully and read them with Ole's essay in
mind - seeihg the "files" as merely the FOOTNOTES. Also, stop seeing me as
Bigger Than Life in any of this.

Post by SOD of the CoE!
==================================================
[start: Main Page "The CoS Files"]
apparently the top page was written (though not attributed

NO, it was written by Ole Wolf. He put his name on there. HIS experience
with the COS is definitely NOT the same as mine. Tyagi. NOw are you going
to distort what's there, invent who wrote what, imagine I am Ole - or are
you seriously interested? Which is it?

Post by SOD of the CoE!

My personal involvement in the CoS was exclusively based on
the CoS' endorsement of the dark doctrines.....

OLE WOLF wrote that - as his name as author shows!

Post by SOD of the CoE!
<snip a heavy emphasis on these "dark doctrines">
down to...

CoS Higher-Ups Intimidating and Interfering
"...Andre Schlesinger and Lestat Ventrue were being AWFUL
to their own COS members in chat and otherwise...."

this appears to be the main contention from Tani, Tim, or
whoever is associated with Tani here (henceforeward to be
referred to as 'Tani&Co').

Now YOU are making me bigger than life. I'm not the person who had the
majority of involvements in this crap. Get that thru your head!

Post by SOD of the CoE!
skipping down past fairly irrelevant and tedious private

"Peter Gilmore Scaring Timothy Stewart" --
Timorthy[sic] Stewart had originally solicited comments
on the subject of Satanism versus fascism. When he put
the findings on his Web site, Peter Gilmore found it
necessary to subject himself to reading and commenting
[sic] it. This document commenting on it [sic]. Stewart
immediately suffered selective amnesia, claiming that
Tani had made him alter his document....

no description is provided for how Tim/Stewart claimed
Tani 'made him' alter his document, and the description
above is plainly by Tani rather than Tim/Stewart.

NO, I did not write that, Tyagi.

Post by SOD of the CoE!
=========
Article 1
=========
sub-page "This document commenting on it."
-------------------------------------------------------
this file contained transcription/translation errors,
such as '1' for apostrophes, and contained interposted
discussion from 2-3 passes without easily-understandable
time-orientation, plus much interposing text from Tani.
apparently edited by Tani&Co (her style in *italics*
interspersed), she has provided the 'last word' for us.

NO, I did not do the html on that, I did not host that on my site, I did not
write that. I suggest you leave the "Tani" out of it. Now I'm sorry I
emailed them to you. I suggest you read that as FOOTNOTES to Ole's Essay
"The Emperor's New Religion" because that IS all that is - footnotes.

Post by SOD of the CoE!

...these files document that the Council of Nine uses
other members of the CoS to do the dirty work of
harassing other people or organizations. When someone
complains about that person, his or her 'bosses' simply
reply that it is just that one person, and that his or
her behavior in no way reflects CoS policies.

in other words, as long as that person isn't acting on
behalf of the Church of Satan as one of its officials,
they shouldn't be treated as such. very reasonable on
the part of the Church of Satan and completely in
line with the Basic Rules of Protocol quoted below.

...now it is documented that they are acting on orders
or requests by the very people that later explain that
these people are acting on their own. Hence, while the
few people that behave as documented may be little
fish, they are asked to do so by the people that happen
to be in charge of the organization. In other words, it
goes to the top. It is the policy of the CoS to have
its members behave like that.

below I will watch for actual proof or admission of
such a contention. it probably focusses on the pep-talk
apparently given by HP Gilmore in bad jest regarding
his 'shock troops'. my guess, given the text below, that
it was all in internal poked humour, seems borne out here.

"Peter Gilmore (Peter = Peter Gilmore of the Church of
Satan, Administrator of the Corporation.)
Scaring Timothy Stewart (Stewart = Timothy Stewart
Epperhart, WolfAtHart, Citizen_Stewart.)"
Timothy Stewart [On Mon, 28 Aug 2000 08:26:36 GMT "Tim

within the text retained below, sometimes Tim (Stewart)
is obviously complaining about Tani to Tani (comparing her
expression to that of Michael Aquino wrt to the Church of
Satan and their fracture). since Jantsang/Marsh/Vad weren't
members, their assertions weren't considered as seriously
by the CoS. they're dealt with as a "Tani clique", which
they do seem to be, later becoming the "Satanic Reds"/SRs.

...Gilmore imagines there is a Tani clique out there
somewhere....

and he identifies its components and behaviour clearly,
which we will continue to call herein Tani&Co. comments
or queries by bobo in [square brackets] throughout.

Why not call it Vad and company (for the reasons we made the comical Vadyan
Clique site) - since he WAS a COS member and thoroughly in the THICK of all
of this for years. I wasn't.

Post by SOD of the CoE!

Peter: [apparently conversing with Tani&Co] "...I was
told [by Tim?] that you present erroneous information
about the Church of Satan as if it were factual, and
that claim did require investigation. I found it to be
true...."

Peter wrote that to TIM - and he was told it by other people that hated
Tim's project on anti/fascism. For some very odd reason, Tim's objective
project was muddled up with some notion that Tim was going against the COS.
THIS is what you are missing. You better learn to read better.

Post by SOD of the CoE!

...
Peter: [to Tani&Co, re Tim's/Stewart's "survey" file] ...

No, Peter to TIM.

Post by SOD of the CoE!

"You are not an administrator of the Church of Satan, nor
are any of the people who responded to you (a number of
whom aren't even members of the Church of Satan). So,
you personally should have borne such facts in mind
when making the broad generalizations in your own
introduction and conclusion to the emails which you
received in response to your letter. But it is clear
that you did not. You assume that you have some
knowledge about the Church of Satan at large, its
membership and its practices, and this is completely
erroneous."

something which Tani tends to inform others,
interestingly. I'm sure I've reviewed this material
in just this way before at some time in the past.

Peter wrote that to TIM. Now, Tim's project was an objective one - a
request for essays from all quarters on "Is Fascism Satanic." WHY would
anyone object to such a venture? For the same reasons that they wrote
"Sychophants Unite" against Jeff Deboo? Perhaps.

Post by SOD of the CoE!

Peter: "If indeed there is a 'fascist faction,' neither
you nor any of your respondents spent any time in
listing the members of this group by name or listing
their numbers, nor is any time spent in quoting any of
their works which would prove their agenda - which you
state to be the intention to force other Church of
Satan members to 'agree with them or leave the Church
of Satan.'"

<snip Tani griping that she didn't save valuable posts
demonstrating to the contrary>

Hold on, Peter wrote that to TIM, not to me. TIM didn'd save the stuff.
Ah, but others surely did save SOME of it, and articles in the TBF are clear
enough.

Post by SOD of the CoE!
now we get to the actual discussion about the "survey".
it is evident that some of Peter H. Gilmore's original
commentary on Tim's text is not being quoted in its
*entirety* throughout, having inserted ellipses

It quoted in its entirety!

Post by SOD of the CoE!
("..."). I suspect that a good number of these were
illiterate insertions into HP Gilmore's text without
necessity, and so when I speculated an interruption
for Tani's text, have removed them entirely, often
along with all intervening text of commentary.
when the ellipses seem so inserted without apparent
removal of text, (from the commentary preceded and
followed in 'The CoS Files' page with square [brackets])
they will not be included, these brackets being changed
to "quotation marks". ""two such marks"" later delineating
HP Gilmore's subsequent commentary/discussion with Tani&Co
on a second or third pass.

PROJECT 1
Stewart: By: Timothy Stewart Epperhart - "Wolf At Hart"...

apparently Tim either agreed initially to present himself
as author or was presented as such by Tani&Co.

Jesus man. Tim had this idea to do this long before I ever heard of it. I
finally got to hear he wanted essays about a few months later. Sure, I
said, I could get people to write their thoughts on it.

Post by SOD of the CoE!
<snip a good deal of wrangling about the "survey" initially>

Peter: "...The Church of Satan has always been
politically pragmatic - I've said it, LaVey has said
it. The Church of Satan does not dictate the politics
of its members, and they are (and have always been)
free to choose whatever suits their personal needs. For
the record, those outside the Church of Satan have,
from its inception, accused it of all manner of
politics: communism, fascism, anarchism, liberalism,
conservatism - and just about anything else you can
think of, all of which are mutually exclusive. What IS
clear, is that journalists who have an 'axe to grind'
against the Church of Satan have always accused it of
advocating a political system which is one they
personally abhor - thus the Church of Satan plays the
role of 'devil' to them in whatever arena of human
thought they wish to explore."
Stewart: The statements made by Magistrate Nadramia
in her "speculation on similarities between Fascism and
Satanism" are noted and should be viewed for relevance.
http://www.apodion.com/vad/cos/s_n_Nazi.shtml (It is
also in "Is Fascism Satanic" on
www.geocities.com/satanicreds/
Peter: "This article is still relevant (and
was heartily endorsed by Anton LaVey - which doesn't
require that you do likewise), and it was interesting
to note how some of your respondents supplied their own
definitions for fascism - essentially putting a spin on
what Magistra Nadramia had said very clearly, then
argued against it. More 'straw man' tactics, which are
among the methodologies used by demagogues."

You do not catch that shit? Tim's respondents (Tim IS Stewart) wrote their
own essays - period. He had quite a few essays collected before I ever
heard of the Project. What, he is not allowed to argue with, or present
arguments pro and con the idea of fascism and satanism? Why not?

Post by SOD of the CoE!

...>>
Peter: "Some of your respondents did attempt to clarify
your error of conflating these terms. That you said
this is an example, however, of a very real 'herd'
definition of these terms. In the 1960's the radical
left preached a philosophy of 'peace and love' which
really boiled down to the concept of leveling
everything to being 'equal.' This 'philosophy'
championed the abandoning of any rational criteria for
evaluation of anything, and the embracing of everything
as being of equal value, which thus fostered
mediocritization of every level of human cultural
endeavor. We are still living in the fallout of this
mode of thinking, as the then young people who espoused
these ideas have grown to adulthood and are now the
'establishment' (those adults whom they considered to
be the enemy during the sixties). This 'egalitarianism'
(for that is what they called it) was manifested in the
'Anything can be defined as being art and all such
works must be considered to have equal validity.'
"Thus, some random splashes on a canvas were
considered an equal achievement to the Sistine Chapel,
a mud hut was held up as being equivalent to
Versailles, and so on. This principle of
'indiscrimination' lead to all other fields of
achievement. A janitor was considered the equivalent to
a physicist, a novelist was now the peer of one who
scrawled graffiti on a bathroom wall and so on. Those
who opposed this leveling were accused of being
'fascists' or 'Nazis,' without regard for what these
terms might have meant in their actual historical
origins and practice. After all, it was the
mid-sixties, twenty years after the ending of a war
that none of these folks were even alive to have
experienced. How quickly past orthodoxies are
forgotten. The Church of Satan was created in the
mid-sixties and stood in contradistinction to these
ideas, which were generally defined as being 'liberal.'
"From the time of the very foundation of the
organization, Anton LaVey and the members of the Church
of Satan were appalled at this societal trend, which
favored the elimination of concrete criteria for the
evaluation of just about anything and instead advocated
that any kind of merit was illusory - and thus that the
act of evaluation was an 'evil' practice.
'Discrimination' became a 'bad word,' when previously
it had meant 'sound judgment.' Well, the Church of
Satan never shied away from embracing things which
society considered 'evil,' and thus it championed a
rebirth of strict criteria for evaluation of all areas
of human endeavor, and quite radically placed the
responsibility for this squarely on the shoulders of
each individual. Thus, there was no 'appeal to
authority' for Satanists - each person held the
responsibility for being their own authority. For this
reason, we were called 'fascists' and 'Nazis' - NOT
because of any advocation of the sociopolitical ends of
these historical movements. Satanists today do not shy
away from being called these names for this very same
reason. We champion merit and superior achievement in
all areas, and are the enemy of enshrined mediocrity.
We abhor what we see as a society that is a rampant
'mediocracy.' The masses (in the sixties as well as of
today) don't know what the terms 'Nazi' and 'fascist'
really mean in a historical sense. These are used as
epithets against anyone with whom they don't agree.
Most frequently they are employed by 'politically
correct' intellectuals who use 'Nazi' and 'fascist' in
the same manner that Joe McCarthy used the word
'communist' and the Christian Inquisitors used the word
'witch' - to discredit the validity of the accused's
point of view and brand them a 'heretic/thought
criminal.' Because of the continuing decline in the
level of education, even amongst those who pursue
degrees at major universities, we can expect that there
will be no real broad understanding of what the terms
'Nazi' and 'fascist' really mean. These will simply
remain derogatory epithets used against those
perceived to be 'the bad guys.'
"Satanists are aware of what impact words and
images have on the herd, and thus use them to their
advantage. It should be clear to anyone who has
observed human society that there is an all-pervading
interest on the part of the contemporary general public
with the Third Reich. This commentary to you would grow
to gigantic proportions should I take the time to
examine the reasons for this (most of which should be
obvious). Anyone with cable television or who happens
to visit movie theatres will see that the Nazis are now
the standard archetype in entertainment for what the
masses deem to be 'Evil' - and they are fascinated with
this and fetishize it to no end. Do you watch 'The
History Channel' (whose emblem is a carved, angular
letter 'H')? We jokingly say that this really stands
for 'Hitler' not 'History' as over 50% of their
programming is Third Reich related. Yes, it's a HERD
thing.
"It should come as no surprise to any Satanist, that
certain savvy Satanists who make their living
entertaining the masses (like Boyd Rice or Brian
Warner) use the public's obsession with this material
for their own ends. Hence both have used symbols and
techniques derived from Third Reich spectacles (which
were undeniably powerful means for motivating masses of
people) for the purpose of stimulating their audiences
and thus putting money in their pockets. Is this
advocating political fascism? No."
...
Peter: "In point of fact, 'stratification' was not the
goal of the German fascists. They sought political
power and needed a scapegoat for the economic woes of
many people. They chose the Jews, since many were
economically successful, and galvanized much of the
populace into following them through this hatred. They
also targeted communists, whom they felt were enemies
to their system of National Socialism. Once the Nazis
took power, their first order of business was to
imprison political enemies, many of whom were
communists. These were the people incarcerated in
concentration camps, long before any program was
established to put Jews in these camps simply because
of their being Jewish. In fact, the German government
worked with Zionist movements to export Jews to the
area now known as Israel, even helping these people to
evade British blockades in their quest to emigrate to
their ancestral 'homeland.' The Holocaust happened
later, at a time of greater desperation for the Nazi
State."

this should stand as HP Gilmore's understanding of the
WWII Holocaust at the time of writing.
now we enter some of the convolution. it appears that
LATER comments by Tani here are interrupting the
original commentary, *then* HP Gilmore's response to it,

Just a second. NOWHERE in that email is Peter responding to ME. Peter
wrote that to TIM, in response to TIM's words. I saw it later - and put
some of my own comments IN there. Isn't it clear on there who said what?

Post by SOD of the CoE!

Tani1: But the "ideal of fascism" present today in
Satanism is founded upon the notion that certain
magical meanings exist behind ancient symbols, e.g.,
the Swastika.

I did NOT write that . TIM DID. Jesus freaking christ - you are just
confusing what is pretty clear on there.

Post by SOD of the CoE!

Peter: ""This statement is complete bunk. Which
Satanists said this and where?""
Tani2: You said "in Satanism." You did not say in COS.
The statement is not bunk at all. MANY other Satanic
orgs, november9.org eg, claim it to be a magical
symbol. Especially, this is so of the Odinist types who
claim to be Satanists.

I said that to TIM as a comment. I did not say that to Peter. Peter did
not say a thing to ME in there.

Post by SOD of the CoE!
end interruption.
now back to Tim's original text, supposedly amended or

I did NOT ammend or edit Tim's email at all.

Post by SOD of the CoE!

Stewart: Also influencing them is that the Swastika is
looked upon as being "Evil" like the Sigil of Baphomet.
The Swastika was considered a very atrocious thing.
What the Swastika actually meant in the past has no
bearing on any of this, regardless of Herd
Misconceptions.
Peter: "The herd's misconceptions have EVERYTHING to do
with how a Satanist uses symbols to influence the herd.
That should be obvious. The folks who run around today
and try to reclaim the swastika as a 'good' symbol have
totally failed to supplant the herd's identification of
this as a sign of 'ultimate Evil,' far more potent to
them than the Sigil of Baphomet. Satanists take note of
this fact. When dealing with mass consciousness,
original meanings are not of any importance, but the
current meanings are all important - which was the
import of my discussion of the terms 'Nazi' and
'fascist' above."
Stewart: "Amidst the Hitlerian concept of strength
through joy!" -ASL, The Satanic Bible. Indeed, Hitler
was no fool when he offered the people freedom on a
personal level, but the way that it was done was wrong
and is opposed to Church of Satan doctrine.
Peter: "Here is the crux of what is a major misprision
that exists in almost all of the people who responded
to your project. It is that they identify with the
herd, and not the rulers of these projected
'idealistic' fascist societies."
...
Peter: "Fascism in actuality is a doctrine that
requires the submission of individuals to the goals of
the state. It is a collectivist philosophy, suppressing
individualism, which states that each person should
sacrifice himself to an abstract principle, which is
treated as a mythologically sacred entity - THE STATE.
"The past supposed 'glories' of the state become
the sacred icons in what is in actuality a new
religion. Fascism is clearly a means for controlling
herds (and one that was effective). When this doctrine
is placed into practice, there has to be somebody who
tells the herd what the needs of THE STATE are to be,
since THE STATE is just an abstraction - it does not
exist. Here enters the 'Ruling Class' - otherwise known
as the Nazi Party, The Communist Party, the Khmer
Rouge, and so on. These rulers claim to embody THE
STATE, and tell the masses what is the will of THE
STATE, and they reign much like the ancient
priesthoods, who held their power by being the only
ones capable of communicating to people the 'will of
the Gods.' These people are a de facto 'aristocracy,'
which uses THE STATE for its raison d'etre, just as the
latter day heads of some of the communist states handed
down THE WILL OF THE PEOPLE as their excuse for
controlling their massed subjects. These rulers are not
subject to sacrificing themselves to THE STATE, because
they are the ones who, as embodiments of THE STATE,
choose who is to be sacrificed (and they don't pick
themselves - though sometimes they do pick their
cohorts who are getting a bit too cocky). These kinds
of rulers now use terms more palatable to our century,
whose masses won't buy such old excuses as 'the divine
right of kings,' but their means are identical. Of
course, these rulers are often foiled by subsequent
'prophets,' who convince the masses that they, rather
than the current rulers, embody THE STATE, and so
counter-revolutions occur and the former leaders are
usually dispatched with violence.
"'Don't pay any attention to the man behind the
curtain!' said the glowering face in a fountain of fire
(THE STATE/THE WILL OF THE PEOPLE), hoping that Dorothy
and crew wouldn't notice who really is pulling the
strings. But Toto (the beast) pulled aside the curtain.
Now we might begin to see how Satanists factor in to
this equation. The Satanist should always be aware of
who is really running the situation in which he finds
himself. Satanists do not see themselves as being part
of the herd and naturally resist any attempts to be
forced to live under any regimes that would make them
part of the controlled herd. However, Satanists really
don't care how the herd is being controlled, so long as
they themselves aren't subject to being controlled
along with them. If forced by circumstance to be part
of such a governmental situation (and I caution the
reader to examine how much he really knows about the
machinations of his current nation of residence), the
clever Satanist would either be the person who pulls
the strings, or, more likely, his associate. Being the
one behind a 'leader' is generally a safer position, as
the leader is always a target, while the advisors often
survive changes in 'top dogs.'
"Some Satanists who are 'political idealists'
might envision a future wherein Satanists are the 'man
behind the curtain' directing the herd to support their
own personal indulgences - the herd sacrificing
themselves to a ruling, but necessarily hidden, Satanic
'elite.' Frankly, I see this as a political pipedream.

we might speculate that this is the origin of the name
and a reflection of the interests of the 'Social Realists'
(aka "Satanic Reds") whose membership includes Tani&Co.

Running a state would leave little time for personal
indulgences and enjoying one's life. In contemporary
Western society, the only political factions likely to
attempt create a fascistic system (as meant by the
original meanings of the terms) are the right-wing
Christians (and the film, 'The Handmaid's Tale'
provides a chilling visualization of this possibility).
I think it far more productive to advocate a system
which guarantees freedom for the exercise of many
points of view (so long as it doesn't require me to pay
for wastrels who want a free ride).
"But we in the administration of the Church of Satan
do not control the thoughts of our members, so if some
of them want to toy with these 'political dreams,' that
is their business. As long as they don't drag our
Church into any political agendas, their personal
pursuits remain just that: personal."

again emphasizing the 'dream' character which later Tani&Co
would counter with their 'Social Realist 10-Point agenda
(also mimicking LaVey's "10 Point Plan").

LaVey doesn't have a 10 point plan. He has a FIVE point plan. No mimicking
involved. If someone comes up with a clarifying 11th point - it would go up
there. The 10th point was added to what originally was only 9 points. You
are assuming a great deal here.

ALSO you are assuming that ALL the people involved in contributing to those
files are in SR. OH NO - some are NOT.

Post by SOD of the CoE!

...>> Stewart: Herd mentality is a sin in CoS doctrine and
it is noted: how else would the Nazis be able to
exterminate a race? On a personal level? Was this a way
for an ideal form of stratification?
Peter: "Did anyone say it was?"

weakly separating the CoS from neo-naziism as have many
of their essays which were part of discussions within
their own publications (also in response to those
such as Jeffrey Deboo). later discernment is stronger.
<snip Tani lamenting Tim not having saved quotations
supposedly proving someone in an upper position in
the CoS said something akin to this.>

He didn't save them, and people in the upper DID say those things to him.
Some of those people were Mags in the cos - and their stuff IS in the TBF
magazine.

Post by SOD of the CoE!

Stewart: Is murder stratification, and would these
actions be "justified" because they were founded upon a
Fascistic point of view?

this is an imperative question. it effectively asks whether
LaVey's sociopolitical aim of 'stratification' might be used

Peter: "That humans kill one another is a part of the
way our species functions. When nations come into
conflict with each other, and this escalates beyond
economic exchanges, what in peacetime would be termed
'murder' then becomes justified in the hands of the
military. How the conflicts finally pan out is one of
the means for large-scale stratification in our
species."

this is a somewhat ambiguous denial of such support,
but taken in context it is a clear denial that the
Church of Satan does not define stratification
in a manner which aligns to fascist ideologies.

...
Peter: "Since multi-level definitions of "fascism" were
not explored in this project (you and your respondents
missed its "common-parlance" usage and chose to
concentrate only on some of its historical
definitions), the analyses in the postings on your site
concerning what form of attractions/repulsions it may
have for certain types of individuals do not even begin
to qualify as being exhaustive or even relevant."

implying that *some* meanings of the term 'fascism' might
well be valuable/important to LaVeyan stratification. it
is this weakness in separating from neo-nazi factions that
earns the CoS criticism from many, including Tani&Co (who
now promote a type of Communism, as 'Reds' parading under
Stalinesque flags) and from occasonal independents such
as Jeffrey Deboo and myself.

The hammer and sickle are not Stalinist, DUH. The symbols do and DID
represent exactly what we say they represent: industry and agriculture
united.

Post by SOD of the CoE!

Stewart: [<snip Tani's text>] Regardless of the differences
between the "moral foundations" of those Fascists in the
past and the present Fascist infection, as I see it, they
share the same intentions. That is, to form an "All is
One" union or dictatorship at the highest levels in the
organization that would trickle down, via brainwashing,
and a "toe the line or get out" party line to the
rank-and-file.
...
Peter: "The Church of Satan has never required anything
of its members except that they hold the writings of
Anton LaVey as their basis for membership in this
organization. Members are free to build their own
personal viewpoints on this foundation. If people have
substantial disagreements with LaVey's work, or wish to
promote something else as the basis for Satanism, like
the 'dark doctrines,' then they should not be members
and should tender their resignations immediately.

here the real divisions begin to become glaringly plain.
HP Gilmore continues, making it clear what type of CoS

"There is no 'brainwashing' in this
organization - we don't have the time for such labor
intensive activities, which would garner minimal
results, and which are counter to our basic principles.
"As from the beginning, we are a cabal of very
independent individuals who share a philosophy
synthesized by Anton LaVey as our point of commonality.
And we will not try to force our members into some kind
of lock-step unity in their personal choices for
building upon LaVey's foundation. However, one thing I
see in common amongst many of the responders to your
letter, is that they usually do identify themselves as
a self-proclaimed 'faction' who center themselves on
the ideas of Tani Jantsang, not those of Anton LaVey.

here is it is made even more clear that HP Gilmore sees
this entire "survey" as the construction of Tani&Co,
something which even Tim appears to be supporting now,
and whose text at the end of this document makes clear
he considers akin to the Aquino+priests break with CoS.

Fact is again, Tim had this project months before I ever heard of it. If
anything, when he asked me for help,I got him a HEAP of essays - both PRO
and CON.

Post by SOD of the CoE!

"Even if this is not admitted, any casual
observer of the writings of these people makes this
very clear. And, from their recent activities in chat
rooms and on Usenet, it is abundantly apparent that
this clique is set on making the Church of Satan a
"one true way" organization based on their
interpretations of issues of sociology, politics,
and biology. This "faction" clearly plays
"Inquisition" and labels those members of the Church
of Satan who disagree with them as "Klippoths"

Sorry, that was Ole's "strict interpretation" of things - a matter over
which Ole and Vad SPLIT - and Ole is not in the SR, btw. He's not even
friends with the SR.

Post by SOD of the CoE!
that HP Gilmore sees this as primarily an internet
phenomenon is clear, and fits with my observation of
the expressions of TJantsang as reacting as if the
public threats against her were actual deeds. her
continuous struggle in usenet with a variety of
individuals is evident, with periods during which
this precise identification ("Klippoths") enters
into the abrasive interactions she and her cohorts
engage, always superior to their avowed 'enemies'.

(remember, Joe McCarthy and the Inquisitors
as mentioned above?), and is now working to make their
opinions the basis for the Church of Satan. I represent
the administration of the Church of Satan and state
that we will not tolerate this attempt at turning our
organization into a totalitarian organization whose
sole aim is the promotion of the agendas of this small
group of individuals. These people followed their own
paths in the past, and didn't require that others
kowtow to them.
"However, particularly since these folk are
active 'online,' lately their ideas seem less and less
based on the work of LaVey, and consequently more and
more demanding that all other members of the Church of
Satan whom they encounter must agree with them.
If they find individual members who disagree,
they have stated that they will attempt to drive them
out. This is not acceptable, as it is not the business
of this clique to determine who is or who is not a
member of the Church of Satan. They are not
administrators of this organization, and they
are not arbiters of membership.

effectively what I have already said was probably
the case in the struggle between Tani&Co and the CoS
(as well as many others who encounter the former).

Why not call it as it really happened. A group of people AND THEN LATER
ON - Tani too. That's more realistic. This shit was ongoing before I got
wind of any of it.

Post by SOD of the CoE!
HP Gilmore continues a very reasonable assessment
of the behaviour of Tani&Co (whom members of the
alt.satanism usenet newsgroup took to calling 'Tani
and her Flying Monkeys' or 'Tani and her drones' --
the latter a smear-term she undertook herself later
to apply to those catcalling her in usenet; something

"As Dr. LaVey has said, when ice melts, it is
called water. So, if this clique has decided that they
have a new foundation for their concepts of Satanism
(and Tani herself has said there is little of Satanism,
by her definition, in the Church of Satan),
then they are all invited to leave immediately and
found their own unique organization."

something which Tani&Co now appear to have

No, the SR was founded in 97, as Brendan said. THEY didh't know about it and
had no need to know about it. We had our own stuff. This stuff above
happened around 2000.

done in their

Post by SOD of the CoE!
ambiguously labelled "Satanic Reds"/"Social Realists"
and proclaimedly unrelated "Red Comrades". back to this

Red Comrades DOCUMENTATION Center is not related to the SR in any way, shape
or form. If I write an article for a Christian organization - and they put
it on their site, are you going to say they are also related to the SR?
Gimme a break.

Post by SOD of the CoE!

Stewart: The reader who is paying attention will note
the similarity in this (fascist) doctrine and outlook
to the early Christian doctrine of "Convert or Die."
Peter: "Essentially this defines the tactics used by
the Tani clique (Agree with our way of 'correcting'
LaVey or be branded a 'Klippoth'),

NO, that was absolutely NOT my way. It is for that reason that Ole Wolf is
NO LONGER assoicated with the SR. HE branded people klippoth when they
disagreed with him! He branded Delila and Lucinda with that name, for
disagreeing with him and then complained to ME about their posts. I ignored
him. Brendan would have booted him out if he didn't just leave on his own.
Odal is still with the SR, but Odal who founded the org with Ole that they
have, has also LEFT that org in disgust for the same "tyrant" reasons. Odal
is still in the SR. Odal is NO LONGER associated with the org Ole now runs.
We DID NOT do that, I DO NOT do that. I'm tired of taking the blame for the
behavior of others, Tyagi. I realize you all seem to see me as bigger than
life. Too bad - go see an eye doctor.

NOT the Church of

Post by SOD of the CoE!

Satan's administration, which accepts a rather diverse
set of means derived from LaVey's writings."

Go tell that to DeBoo - a loner and individual that merited the BIG
"Sychophants Unite" article - just for him.

Post by SOD of the CoE!

Stewart: The proponents of this Organizational Fascism
Peter: "Whom you have still failed to identify."
Tani: WE WILL identify them, hell, the book "Lucifer
Rising" identified them!

Keep in mind, that is my COMMENTARY on the email Peter mailed to Tim.

Post by SOD of the CoE!
the fact that Tani&Co had not identified them here and
relies upon Baddeley's book for data is quite amusing.

Some of them are identified in those files. When Ole got THOROUGH info, he
put it up there.

Post by SOD of the CoE!

Stewart: cannot practice that doctrine in full in the
real world because those in the past that objected to
this tyranny bought our freedom from that fate with
their blood.
Peter: "This reads like a threat to the straw man of
'proponents of Organizational Fascism,' that those who
disagree with them will do so 'with their blood.' That
is typical rhetorical nonsense, not rational debate - a
tactic used so effectively by Dr. Goebbels, I might add.

here as above, HP Gilmore is attempting to reverse the
brush of fascism upon Tani&Co, something which is still
fairly easy to do as long as she and they identify with
labels so easily connected to WWII Stalinism (e.g. NKVD).

Stewart: Were it still a valid option, however, the
vehemence of the Satanic Fascist faction
Peter: "Some evidence of this 'vehemence,' please."
Stewart: makes it fairly plain that it would be a
method joyously utilized by them to silence the
opposition! "You better shut up!" "You better drop this
project." "You can leave if you don't like it."
Tani: they said that to you in CHAT and you DID NOT log it.

indicating that the foundation of the entire 'CoS Files'
is UNSUBSTANTIATED EXCEPT ON THE FORCE OF TANI'S CLAIM,

No, TIM'S claim . Tim IS Stewart, btw. Timothy Stewart Epperhart. Let me
tell you something else - Tim happenes to be Les Master's LOVER - they are
GAY. That happened well after all of this shit happened.

Post by SOD of the CoE!
NOW APPARENTLY EVEN DISPUTED BY TIM. HP Gilmore continues
to ask the pertinent questions, for which Tani does indeed

Peter: "Has any member of the administration of the
Church of Satan told any of the people who've responded
to this project to 'shut up'?
<Tani's response interrupts here>
Tani1: Schlessinger, Ventrue, and 2 others, forgot who.
They even advised you to read Main Kampf by Hitler! -
or so you ran into muse [#satanmuse, Tani&Co's IRC
chat-channel] and told everyone.

He did do that, on the day they said that. I did ask him if he had logs.
He didnt know HOW to save logs. He copy pasted the convo from one room into
our room as it happened!

Post by SOD of the CoE!

Peter: <continuing> (Whether any of us thinks that
it is a project that has been executed with any skill
is another matter, but we generally don't offer our
opinions unless asked, as per one of our 'Rules of the
Earth.') And concerning the corporate entity, which is
the Church of Satan, it IS thoroughly within our rights
as administrators of the corporation to tell any
members that, if they disagree with how we are running
the organization, then they SHOULD 'leave if they don't
like it.' We are also empowered to terminate their
titles and membership at will. Membership in the Church
of Satan does not grant you rights of usage of property
which belongs to the corporation, nor does it give you
anything beyond what the administration of the
corporation chooses to give to you."
Stewart: This doctrinal similarity with the avowed
enemies of the Satanic movement in the past, is a large
contributing factor to the feeling, on my part and on
the part of many, that these so-called Nazi Revisionist
Satanists have worn out their welcome. Some still pose
the question of whether there is, indeed, a Fascist
faction in the CoS.
Peter: "Again, you've presented no evidence whatsoever
that there exists a faction of 'Nazi Revisionist
Satanists' in the Church of Satan, much less that such
a mythical faction has any power in the organization."

LMAO - is that why they are all purged out or encouraged to leave after Jeff
did what he did? LMAO. Who they are is evident from reading Black Flame
magazine! They were open about it.

Post by SOD of the CoE!

Stewart: What of stratification? Would that not be a
definition of what is going on within the organization?
Peter: "Stratification is a term coined by Anton LaVey
to signify how nature allows everything to 'seek its
own level.' It is not something to be advocated - it
happens of its own accord. In human social situations
there are many strata - though here in the West for
years this was (mistakenly) thought to be invalid
because 'democracy' supposedly dissolved the old formal
class structures. In reality, classes founded on
economic status were the new 'strata,' though some
mobility is offered when individuals who were
entrepreneurs garnered enough wealth to move out of
their original stratum. In the past, there were still
issues for these 'upwardly mobile' individuals
concerning their social status since families coming
from 'old money' were associated with 'cultured
aristocracy' while their 'new money' was pegged as
being part of 'crass materialism' (and there was
some evidence to support these stereotypes). And
stratification is always happening in the
organization, as such cannot be avoided."
Stewart: It is an interesting question. I would ask the
reader to keep the following point in mind as he/she
ponders the question of stratification: the goal of
Fascism is "sameness." In no way does "sameness" equate
with stratification.
Peter: "The goal of fascism is to weld a group of
people together towards a common goal - support of a
state - which itself is an illusion created by the
rulers of that state. The 'sameness' is the common
purpose, and such has always been the means for
totalitarians whether they are called fascists, or
clergy, or commissars. This has nothing ostensibly
to do with stratification, which ideally is the
recognition of natural differences depending upon
merit, but can be seen practically in how well the
clever 'know the ropes' of the system in which they
live. People rise and fall, or remain static in their
society. Like seeks like. As Satanists, we embrace
the principle that there are those who naturally are
leaders, and those who are followers. There are masters
and there are slaves, and quite a few shades in
between. It is a delusion amongst many who embrace
Satanism that by adopting this philosophy, they are
immediately 'masters,' and are thus now equal to all of
the other 'masters.' This is an error. Satanists know
that those who embrace Satanism treat themselves as
their own Gods - making the satisfaction of their
individual selves the standard of value for their
lives. However, only the naive would think that amongst
these self-acknowledged Satanists that everyone is
automatically in some kind of 'equivalent brotherhood'
now that they are calling themselves 'Satanists.'
Nothing could be further from reality. Embracing
Satanism does not automatically give you advanced
creative skills, a lifetime of hard-won experience, or
wisdom garnered from studying the wealth of information
now at our fingertips. You may be 'your own god' but
you don't have instant 'godhood' in the realm of human
endeavor - that is something only gained through the
refined cultivation of whatever talents are yours by
nature. Satanism can be a great 'launching pad' for
those who are realists, to see where they stand in
their level of personal achievement, and to rationally
decide how to advance themselves in whatever manner
they choose (or not to advance themselves, but to enjoy
whatever level they wish to have). Amongst Satanists,
there are some who embrace the principles of this
philosophy and do not feel that they have the
capabilities to make their own horizons, as Nietzsche
defined a characteristic of his superior humans. These
honest individuals, under Satanism, have the choice to
personally (and wisely) select their master, and thus
to guarantee that they will get the guidance they
desire which will be beneficial to themselves (unlike
unwilling slaves, they are also free to switch masters
should they so choose). Few are honest enough about
themselves to make such a decision. We are thus
confronted with a spectacle of 'Satanists' who are all
failing the 'leaky inner tube test.' They puff
themselves up with claims of godhood, when they are,
by any objective standards, really just a bunch of
low-grade buffoons who can't produce anything on a
level that could be deemed professional (as low as many
standards for professionalism are these days). Would
that they could honestly look into the mirror and see
themselves for who they really are, and that those who
aren't 'leaders and innovators' should stop being
pretenders to those thrones. They'd be happier and
the fringes of Satanism would look less ridiculous.
However, we do understand the 'nature of the human
beast' and thus will do our best to usher these
pretentious fools out of the door of the Church
of Satan."

a more firm opposition to the fascist politics based on
its enshrinement of the state and opposition to such
advances by Satanists of individualism. this has been
fairly consistent both in LaVey's writings and also in
HP Gilmore's writings as in his letters to Apple Computer.

Stewart: The members of this Fascist faction would have
us believe that by belonging to their faction they are
demonstrating some kind of "personal power." In their
eyes, the identification with a political doctrine and
people that sought the elimination of a supposedly
"weaker race" invests them with some feeling of
superiority, and they take this to be Satanic.
Peter: "You have offered no evidence for such a faction
in the Church of Satan using this methodology. This
is, however, an accurate description of many white
supremacists, and those folk are currently in short
supply amongst our membership. I suggest that this must
have something to do with Anton LaVey's personal Jewish
roots, as well as the fact that we don't embrace racism
since it is collectivist thinking and thus not
compatible with the individualist basis for the
philosophy of the Church of Satan."
...
Peter: "Real Satanists have confidence and 'personal
power' as they determine the course of their lives, to
whatever extent is possible in the society in which
they live. There are times when masochists are
attracted to Satanists, and these folk antagonize the
Satanist in an attempt to goad them into exercising
their real power (not a postured power). The Satanist,
as LaVey explained, is an Epicurean Sadist, and when
such masochists come-a-calling, the Satanist often says
'No' to the symbolic requests for a 'beating,' thus
turning the masochist's sought after eustress into
distress. But the Satanist's option to say 'yes' also
exists, and he can then provide the masochist with the
'beating' being requested, only if it gives the
Satanist satisfaction. That some Satanists use
fascist-related imagery to manipulate the herd has
nothing to do with their own sense of efficacy. They
don't need it to be bolstered via symbols of any sort.
It is simply a matter of pushing buttons in the mass
(or individual) consciousness for their own ends - as
was described above concerning Boyd Rice and Brian
Warner. We all know from history that the real fascist
movements fell from power. BUT, only a fool would
ignore the continued power of their iconography over
the popular consciousness. Hence, you don't see any
Satanists advocating neo-fascist political movements -
which are currently the purview of those who feel they
have no power over their lives and are looking for
scapegoats to blame for this powerlessness. The
neo-Nazis are generally powerless white folk, who want
to try to do what Hitler did in the past. They are
clinging to a sunken ship. Real fascists today use
Jesus and Christian moral righteousness to make their
way to power, blaming those who oppose their morality
for the distress their members feel. Their scapegoats
are chosen using their own morality and faith as the
criteria. Satanists, for the most part, clearly oppose
Christian concepts of morality and would also oppose
the success of such movements (unless, perhaps, they
have the concession for selling Christian
tchotchkes!)."
Stewart: An interesting aside is that these people are
idolizing a system of thought and practice that would
see them as its first victims. No genuine political
Fascist would "suffer a Satanist to live."
Peter: "This is correct, in as much as I've said above,
that the only forces poised to effectively create a
fascist state in the current Western world are those
motivated by the right-wing Christian coalition. They'd
love a theocracy, but not one dominated by the Vatican
as was the last such political state. As said above,
some 'politically idealist' Satanists might advocate a
very different kind of fascism, wherein the goals of
the state are defined by Satanists, and the herd
follows them (though this is really quite a
'pie-in-the-sky' form of idealism which I find
incompatible with the essential pragmatism of
Satanism). And to reiterate what I said above, if some
Satanists want to satisfy themselves with such dreams,
they may, so long as they don't identify them with the
aims of the Church of Satan, which are emphatically not
political, nor are they idealistic."

something which the "Satanic Reds" (/"Social Realists")
have pinpointed as their line of departure. having
identified a subsector of the Satanist community with
which the Church of Satan can truly have no quarrel as
long as it isn't identified as *originating* from said
Church, they have paraded this under the flag of crypto-
Stalinism as an echo of the apparent heritage of Tani
(whose father was apparently an NKVD agent).

Problem with that theory - as Brendan pointed out, SR existed in 1997 before
I was online.

Post by SOD of the CoE!

Stewart: The political and real ideal of Satanism was
set forth over 200 years ago and is rooted in the
concept of Freedom. Specific examples of those Freedoms
freedom of speech, religion, the press, and assembly
and petition.
Peter: "We Satanists tend to define the United States
as the world's first 'Satanic Republic.'

Doesn't Peter mean first MASONIC Republic? LOL.


But you should

Post by SOD of the CoE!

note that the 'founding fathers' did not originally grant
freedom to everyone - it was thought to be a 'right'
only for those whom they deemed worthy and capable of
intelligent ability to exercise such freedoms - which
originally excluded people such as slaves and women.
Thus, they weren't giving everyone equality, but were
advocating freedom for people whom they defined as equals
in ability and capability, an important distinction that
has been lost on many who want to interpret their wisely
constructed governmental structure as being 'egalitarian.'"
Stewart: Are we to accept any less from an
organization, specifically a Satanic one that
supposedly holds the Self sacred, than we demand
from our government? I think not!
Peter: "The Church of Satan is not a political state,
but a corporation, and does not pretend to operate as
does the United States government. In practice, we who
administer the organization do as Anton LaVey mandated
- we seek out the assistance of individuals of superior
ability to assist in our goal, which is the
dissemination of the philosophy synthesized by Anton
LaVey. This corporation is NOT an autonomous
collective, nor is it a republic or a democracy, and
the members have no final say in how it is run. The
members may state their opinions (and should do so,
according to one of our 'Rules of the Earth,' only when
we solicit them). But we who run this show are under no
obligation to act in any way other than as we see fit.
During his life, Anton LaVey was the bottom line for
decisions concerning how the Church of Satan was run.
As a member of his Council of Nine for many years, he
often sought my view on matters of import, but he
always made his own final decisions and took the
responsibility for them. He picked some of us to carry
on this responsibility, and to do so with the same
authority which he wielded. We do not claim to be doing
otherwise, and if people have joined us under the
illusion that they will share in the running of this
corporation simply by paying $100, then they have
deluded themselves and are invited to tender their
resignations immediately."
Stewart: Two hundred years ago, a group of people
dedicated to "Nature's god" looked at the tyranny that
they were forced to live with and decided that such
tyranny was no longer to be tolerated or accepted.
They pledged themselves, at the cost of "their lives,
fortunes and sacred honor," to freedom from the tyranny
of the "Christian King of Great Britain." The
government they formed in the midst of Revolution was
Liberty, Equity and Unity. Liberty: Do as Thou Wilt.
those who practice the principles of Liberty and Equity
come together to preserve them, wherever and whenever
they are threatened.
Peter: "Dealt with above - they deemed a select group
capable of exercising these freedoms."
Stewart: Again, the reader who is paying attention will
note that nowhere in that Satanic ideal will you find
anything of the Fascist ideal. Indeed, the two are
anathema to each other.
[apparently Peter:] "Depending upon how one defines
each of these ideals - which you treat as absolutes,
but which are not."
Stewart: On an ironic note, it is that very freedom and
liberalism that the Fascist faction finds so abhorrent,
that allows the Satanic organization that they infect
to exist! "All religions are equal under the law. The
State should not interfere." Liberals say this.
Peter: "If one is not a member of the 'ruling class,'
but is actually part of a minority faction in a
pluralistic society, then advocating that 'everyone be
treated equally under the law' may guarantee that you
will have a maximum amount of personal freedom (if
there aren't other 'power factors' at work - like
wealth). Of course the amount of freedom depends upon
the laws of the society in which one lives and we
recognize that special interest groups often jostle to
get more of the 'pie' via handouts and privileges
established via state mechanisms) As an aside,
Satanists know that there are no 'natural rights' as
the concept of rights requires someone or something to
be doling them out, and in the past this is usually
considered to be some God. The only 'rights' one has
are those given by the laws of the governmental
structure under which you live, and ultimately, even
these devolve into what you may attain for yourself
using whatever personal power you might have. That is
why the rich get away with so much more, as their
wealth gives them power and hence, 'more rights' in a
society ruled by lawyers and not justice. However, if
you belonged to the 'ruling class' you might have a
very different perspective. It is true that
self-identified Satanists are currently as I described
above, a minority in a pluralistic society. But what if
they achieved a position of being the 'ruling class'?
How would clever self-declared Satanists run a
government? What would they advocate? How would they
control the masses? This could be a fine question which
could be dealt with in a novel of speculative fiction,
as it is not likely to happen in reality. But, we do
know that the people who really understand how to
exercise power on the highest of human levels,
regardless of whatever philosophy they spew as their
cover, are actually maintaining their power by behaving
in accordance with the true nature of the human
species, and are thus de facto Satanists."
Stewart: It can be seen that the ideals of the Fascist
have nothing in common with the ideals of the Satanist,
yet here we have a Fascist faction infecting a Satanic
organization.
Peter: "No, it is certainly not true that we have a
'Fascist faction infecting' our Church of Satan. You
assert this as fact without offering any concrete
evidence."

Yes, he didn't SAVE the god damned evidence - which is one reason Ole
started demanding FULL evidence, and not this kind of shit. The evidence
would be in the Black Flame magazine itself.

Post by SOD of the CoE!

...
Peter: "It is not the business of the administrators to
attempt to argue you and many of your respondents to
this project out of their misprision regarding this
false contention that there is a faction of fascists
which has usurped the Church of Satan. You are wrong.
Perhaps now you might be seeing that you've made an
error in your assertions. But, if your self-proclaimed
'anti-fascism clique' (the only 'faction' which we
administrators see) feels strongly enough in their
belief of this fiction, then we invite all of you to
send in your resignations immediately (please use the
San Diego PO Box so that we can close your files with
utmost efficiency). You are advocating that members of
the Church of Satan "take back" a corporation which
does not belong to them.
"That sort of 'coup' is not possible, and those
who advocate such will not be tolerated as members
by this administration. You are hereby advised to
immediately follow your own advice: separate yourselves
and form a 'new faction.' Your 'one true way' attempt
to force the entire membership of the Church of Satan
to conform to your opinions is not welcome. It is
ironic that throughout history this has always been the
cry of those who want to establish their own tyranny -
the claim to advocate 'liberation,' which actually
paves the way towards establishing a hegemony which
favors their own special interests. Remember
Robespierre? Probably not, else some perspective would
have crept into this 'project.' So, if any of you has
the 'courage of your convictions' we should expect to
see your departure, as you cannot change our methods,
which we continue to use exactly as Anton LaVey
mandated we should.
"Additionally, I found it amusing that this whole
'project' is spent railing against the 'evils' of
fascism. When viewed in a broader perspective, it
simply smacks of jumping on the 'politically correct'
bandwagon - 'We may be Satanists, but we aren't
fascists - heavens no!'"

2nd and 3rd passes interrupt here.

Let me interject something - while Tim was seeing this trend INSIDE OF the
COS from direct experience, I was also unable to get COS members to submit
their own pro fascist articles for the project for Tim. One of them was on
the LTTD board - but had been taken down when Tim kept asking for it. I
did quote the author himself (to be fair) in the essay that's on the site
right now. Sorry, forgot his name. So I got pro fascist and anti fascist
essays from ANYWHERE that involved satanism - and gave them to Tim. But Tim
had no idea how to make a website. Metadromos started to do it but it was
taking too much time since essays kept coming daily. Brendan finally put it
on our site - ALL of it (the html is his). Tyagi, tim didn't even know how
to turn the essays he did get handed, into TEXT to keep the files small -
for LATER conversion to html. You can see that on the website where the
whole collection now resides.

ALSO When DeBoo wrote anti fascist tracts, he was not directing that toward
fascism WITHIN the COS (which IS what inspired TIM to do this project,
direct experience with members with nicks such as Main Kampf (the guy Walter
threatened to kill on here before my time - and another with the nick Dr.
Joseph Mengele - aka Dr. Joe - who turned out to be a RUSSIAN
neurotoxicologist!). DeBoo was talking about fascism within satanism
PERIOD - not just the COS.

Post by SOD of the CoE!

Tani1: That is not what provoked you [apparently Tim]
to write this at all - and you should have TOLD them this.
But this IS what everyone else thought it was about!
ME TOO, as you can see from my first response. Phil too,
see by his response. Everyone thought that, just about.

That is my note to TIM - not to Peter. I have notes IN this email from
Peter to Tim.

Post by SOD of the CoE!

Peter: "Such is the usual course of action for those who
can't bear to be without a 'goodguy badge.' And, as Dr.
LaVey pointed out, all wearers of goodguy badges need
an audience - hence the 'project' satisfies this dictum.
Tani2: Oh, I think the stuff YOU wrote is confrontational
as hell. Seeing this, I made mine more confrontational. :)
I spoke what I felt. Simple as that.

I wrote that regarding TIM's stuff.

Post by SOD of the CoE!

Stewart NO

Peter TO TIM:

Your concluding paragraph above has

Post by SOD of the CoE!

the tenor, if not the literary skills, of missives I
recall reading which date from 1975. They were written
by a self-righteous Michael Aquino who had convinced
himself that the Church of Satan had sold-out on its
principles. LaVey pointed out to him that he really
didn't understand those principles in the first place
and really didn't understand how the organization as a
whole was being run. I am now saying the same to you
and those who share your delusion. In some of the
forwarded email exchanges from the "Tani-clique"
preceding this "project," I noted a railing against
the concept of hierarchy in the Church of Satan -
redefining it into something non-natural and then
shooting it down (the same tactic as is used in this
"fascism project").

You have the who said what to who pretty confused.

Post by SOD of the CoE!

Peter: "The Church of Satan has a natural hierarchy,
wherein titles are granted by its administration on the
basis of merit. But these titles aren't 'frozen.' If
someone screws up and lets us down, their title, and
even their membership, may be revoked. There are
currently members who have titles, including Magisters
and Magistras, whom the Council has decided have been
a disgrace to these titles, abusing these tokens of
esteem and using them to browbeat other members, or as
convincers for specious contentions. While we are
patient and generally trust that our original
estimation of these people may again prove to be their
norm, if such does not happen speedily, then we will
not hesitate to bring to an end these members'
affiliation with the Church of Satan.
"And if anyone doubts that what we are doing is
not as LaVey planned, we can offer evidence concerning
protocols for this Church from its very earliest of
days which I must admit we've actually been fairly lax
in maintaining amongst the rabble of our membership
online. Recall that LaVey specified in 'The Cloven
Hoof' that one of the ways for getting ahead in the
Church of Satan was termed 'pleasing the boss.' As I've
seen in some email exchanges from this clique, that
last word seems to have bothered some of you. I would
posit that there were some less-than-positive
employment situations in the past for those who feel
this way. LaVey did see himself as the head of his
Church, though this does not mean that this position
meant anything more or less than it could in a group
whose members join and leave voluntarily. He expected
his members and appointed representatives to
instinctually know the boundaries between 'Church
business,' and the personal 'life matters' that always
remained up to each individual. Those who fail to be
able to make this distinction will be called to task.
In matters of their own lives, Church of Satan members
have complete sovereignty - they are their own bosses
(to paraphrase a current pop tune lyric, 'We ain't the
boss of thee'). Members of the Church of Satan have
always been expected to treat each other as 'ladies and
gentlemen.'
"Additionally, those who work at administering
the organization ARE part of a corporate hierarchy, and
they are expected to act accordingly. That includes
people who are granted the privilege of representing
the Church of Satan - it comes with specific
responsibilities, and if these are not willingly
accepted, then the privilege may honorably be refused.
Once accepted, if these responsibilities are abused,
then the position is revoked. Over the course of the
history of our Church, there have often been times when
people had to lay down their titles as they could not
continue to honor the responsibilities which came with
them. Did one of our 'founding fathers,' General George
Washington, confer with all of his soldiers before he
made tactical decisions? No. He consulted with his
hand-picked trusted advisors, then made his choice
based on his own evaluations of the facts and the
opinions he received by request. And he expected
adherence to his decisions about this situation in
which all were voluntarily involved. That is the
natural way an organized meritocratic group (which
seeks to attain a common goal) works. It is not
anarchic, and the leader (boss) does not waste time
soliciting the thoughts of all involved - only the
ideas of those who count in his estimation. That is how
LaVey ran the Church of Satan, and that is how we
continue to run the Church of Satan. If any of you are
peeved because you haven't earned a place amongst those
whose opinions count, you only have yourselves to
blame.
"For the edification of those who are
'anti-hierarchy,' we include an excerpt from 'The
Cloven Hoof' which delineated precisely how it was
expected that Church of Satan members should deal with
each other. LaVey promoted this ideal, and we are
certain that he would be ashamed if he could witness
the sorry spectacle we've had the misfortune of viewing
as it takes place in chat rooms and on Usenet.
Peter: "Hail Satan!
Magister Peter H. Gilmore For High Priestess Barton
and the rest of the Council of Nine

how much more clearly could it possibly be spelt out?
the included 1970 document follows (evaluated as

From "The Cloven Hoof," Issue June V Anno Satanas (1970 CE).
Basic Rules of Protocol
I. Orders: Each member in attendance at a grotto of the
Church shall render due respect and deference, in both
word and action, to his superiors in the Church, as
well as to members of higher orders than that to which
he belongs. He shall also demonstrate regard for all
members of the Church as befits their status as
servants of the Infernal Lord and subjects of the
Infernal Empire. It shall be incumbent upon members
attending rituals to wear the amulet of their
respective Order, unless a serious reason prevents them
from doing so.

note the stipulation of "the Infernal Lord" and "subjects
of the Infernal Empire". this may be contradictory to
both notions of 'atheistic CoSatanists' as well as the
contentions by Tani&Co as "Dark Doctrines"-oriented.

No, more like how about the idea of "you are your OWN god or goddess" being
anathema to the very concept of EMPIRE?

Post by SOD of the CoE!

II. Titles: Officials of the Church are to be addressed
by their respective titles except when to do so would
be awkward or reveal identities and positions to those
who should not be so informed, such as non-members.
This is to be determined by the circumstances, but
great effort should be made to demonstrate respect and
loyalty. The ordinary forms of address to be used are
as follows: The High Priest: "Your Excellency," or "My
Lord, High Priest" in the context of rituals. These may
also be used in ordinary address, but "Doctor" and
"Magus" may be used as well. The High Priestess: "High
Priestess, Priestess," or "Lady Diane." The Magister of
"Reverend," or in the case of Priestesses, "Priestess."
Other officials are to be addressed by their last name,
prefixed with "Mr., Mrs.," or "Miss," unless the member
has a first-name relationship with them.
III. Gestures of Respect: Members should ordinarily
stand when the High Priest enters the room, and if a
handshake is to be extended, it is the High Priest's
prerogative to make the gesture, NOT the member's to
assume. When receiving Infernal benedictions from the
High Priest, it is usual to kneel, but to stand when
receiving such from other members of the clergy.
IV. Difficulties or Complaints: Difficulties or
complaints should first be discussed with the member in
charge. General problems should be taken up with the
Taskmaster of the Grotto, who will, if necessary, refer
them to the Priestess of the Grotto or the Magister.
Only in extreme cases should it be necessary to bring
these to the attention of the High Priestess or the
High Priest, and then only through the proper channels.
V. General Attitude toward Regulations and Protocol: It
should be apparent that all regulations and forms of
protocol are designed to increase the dignity and
status of the Church, and are, therefore, to the
benefit of even the least important member. Satanists
are ready to pay deference to their superiors, and
expect, in consequence, respect from their inferiors.
This is the order of nature, and we as magicians must
regulate our lives in accordance with that order. If
you do not understand why an individual has been placed
in a certain position, it behooves you to have
confidence in the decisions and knowledge possessed by
those in authority who make such appointments, and to
act accordingly.

failing to acknowledge any particular religious body as
authoritative, these stipulations would of necessity be
only pertinent to membership of the CoS. outside said
membership, the description of stratification seems to
be quite plain.

They seemed to have major problems with this stratification when it took the
forms of SEPARATED satanic orgs!

Post by SOD of the CoE!
-------------------------------------------------------
end of Article 1.
it was probably at this point that I quit "The CoS Files"
as worthless propaganda by Tani&Co, but I'll look through
the rest of them somewhat to see if there is anything of
value to Satanism as a whole or contentions that there is
truly some portion of the CoS which is fascist or trying
to bully its membership unfairly.

Read Ole's essay - of which these files are mere footnotes. You either want
to know what was going on, or you don't. But DON'T in future get who is who
mixed up as you did on here - or imagine that this shit started with me at
all. It was ongoing long before I got WIND of it.

Post by SOD of the CoE!
blessed beast!
boboroshi at-sign satanservice.org: Satanic Outreach Director
Church of Euthanasia: http://www.churchofeuthanasia.org/
TOKUS WEBLINKS: http://dmoz.org/Bookmarks/B/boboroshi/
Ninth Scholar's Library (Satanism Archive): http://www.satanservice.org/

[Tani Jantsang ©]

Tyagi, WHY do you manage to MISS who wrote this page when it's on the
bottom?

This is what you didn't read too well:

QUOTE
The CoS Files

Keywords: the Church of Satan, CoS, C/S, Satanism, Satan, Dark Doctrines,
Cult, Crime, Corporation Sole, Fraud, Scam, Religious Harassment,
Intimidation, Bullying, Anton LaVey, Blanche Barton, Peter Gilmore, Peggy
Nadramia, Prostitution.

Last updated: February 27, 2001.

This collection of files document how the Church of Satan (CoS) uses lies
and two-faced policies, discloses personal membership information, requests
that its members harass other people and other organizations, all in order
to recruit people who will pay $100 in membership registration.

Some members of the CoS would rather believe that the documentation found in
these files is not correct, and have attempted to dismiss it as "hearsay,"
"out of context," etc. I have compiled a reply to the various objections.

My personal involvement in the CoS was exclusively based on the CoS'
endorsement of the dark doctrines. Today, the CoS has radically departed
from this policy--or more specifically, this collection of files shows that
the people now in charge of the CoS never had that policy. I was expelled
from the CoS for defending the dark doctrines, as were others; some others
simply resigned; yet others still hope the CoS may "return" to a state they
have yet to realize it was never in.

When I encountered the CoS, it was the only organization that endorsed the
dark doctrines. Today, several Satanic organizations embrace the dark
doctrines. Now that the CoS has turned its back on the dark doctrines, it is
these other organizations that offer Satanism while the CoS offers nothing
but a group wailing ground for suffering egos in need of delusions of worth.

What is documented in these files is only the tip of the iceberg. I have
left the organization unscarred, but others who are still in the
organization are subject to harassment, intimidation, depersonalization, and
other forms of "education" (Blanche Barton's word)--and apparently some
enjoy it. Steer clear of this organization!

I am hosting this documentation to save people the $100, the divulgation of
their personal data, and their wasted time, and to make up for my share of
the responsibility of luring people into the CoS with the promise of
Satanism.

See also The Emperor's New Religion, which is an analysis of the Church of
Satan. (About 2 MBytes, and requires the Adobe Acrobat Reader).

Ole Wolf.
UNQUOTE

SEE THE AUTHOR'S NAME ON THERE? HIS html, was on HIS site where this page
is from. Foot notes to HIS essay.

You know, it's clear to me that you do not want to KNOW what all happened -
but instead want to believe that it has something to do with me - when I was
the LAST person to be involved in the mess. You also missed MY letter (that
predates the files) to BARTON - or failed to notice WHO it was addressed to.
Or that it ending up on the COS files means that the letter got OUTED.

[Tani Jantsang ©]

QUOTE (and please NOTE the author is not me).

CoS Higher-Ups Intimidating and Interfering

Getting Proof of Bullying Behavior

When members of the CoS complain about abuse, Peggy Nadramia's usual
responses are variants of "get proof or shut up." In the few occasions where
the members saved the pertinent documentation, typically the member would
typically be told that this was just that one person "having fun," and that
the member not bother about it.

Here is the whole sequence of events that transpired from Peggy telling me
(Tani Jantsang) to "get proof" that Andre Schlesinger and Lestat Ventrue
were being AWFUL to their own COS members in chat and otherwise. What was
uncovered was a lot more.

The CoS responded promptly once the proof was irrefutably available by
terminating the title of Tani Jantsang, and by expelling Hr. Vad and Ole
Wolf, who were all opposed to the oppressive policy.

Form Emails

Did you have a Web site with Satanic content, and were you greeted with a
polite response from a CoS official who "had been alerted" to your site?

If so, it was not praise for your good work. You simply received a form
email that is intended to make you join the CoS. The form email is usually
tailored to the situation; here is an example of an attempt to coerce a
person into the CoS, and a form letter that was originally written by Peter
Gilmore.

Peter Gilmore's "Waffen SS" Email

The CoS asks its members harass other organizations and help silence people
who speak up against the CoS. This email from Peter Gilmore where he
practically says "come to us for dirt" proves it. Evidently, some members
harassing other people have been requested by the CoS officials to do so.

This document also shows an exchange of emails between Ole Wolf and Lord
Egan, who founded the First Church of Satan.

Peter Gilmore Ghost-Posting on alt.satanism

Despite his claims, Peter Gilmore does read alt.satanism. He does not post
on this newsgroup, however, but relies on CoS members whom he asks to post
his messages, as this sample documents. It is not clear whether he abstains
from posting because of an image he wants to maintain, or whether it is
because he can post incorrect messages without personally taking
responsibility.

Peter Gilmore Scaring Timothy Stewart

Timorthy Stewart had originally solicited comments on the subject of
Satanism versus fascism. When he put the findings on his Web site, Peter
Gilmore found it necessary to subject himself to reading and commenting it.
This document commenting on it. Stewart immediately suffered selective
amnesia, claiming that Tani had made him alter his document. This is Tani's
reply to Stewart.

Peter Gilmore Bullying Amina

Amina Lap has been a member of the CoS since 1997, and has done a
significant amount of work. Amina was not scared like Timothy Stewart. This
file documents how Peter Gilmore first praised her work, then later
attempted to scare her--and it documents how he lies.

Peter Gilmore Considers Lord Egan a Threat

In this email from Peter Gilmore, it is evident that Peter Gilmore considers
Egan a threat to the CoS. It was when Tani Jantsang refused to combat Egan
for using a tradition that the CoS has no exclusive rights to use (ANYONE
can use what they've learned) that Peter Gilmore turned against her. This
strongly suggests that the CoS only used the dark doctrines to lure people
into the organization.

Lestat Ventrue as a Spy in #satanmuse

The CoS has a number of "Satanic Rules of the Earth," one of which states
that Satanists keep their noses to themselves and not interfering with other
people's businesses. However, the CoS actively interferes with other people.
Here we have proof of Lestat Ventrue being in #satanmuse, the chatroom owned
by the dark doctrines people, posing as "someone" that just "happens" to be
there.

Members and Officials Slandering and Interfering

Here is proof that the COS slanders people, that the COS administrators
can't stop their members and officials from slandering people, and that they
care far too much about what people on #satanmuse are doing. They go far out
of their way here, and admit it, to annoy and harass people who are trying
to mind their own business in their own chat rooms. These logs are
incredible and have information that will blow the mind of some readers,
including COS readers.

Dr. Sigmund Rascher, the third side, evil doktor, and nutcase_tani are all
the same person, a fellow that CoS member "Dr. Joseph Mengele" took under
his wing. He got banned from #satanmuse after shit-disturbing on two
occasions. He then proceeded to "try to annoy Tani" with multiple PMs by
spamming her in private messages from #satannet.

These messages show how Robert Merciless, a long time shit-disturber on
alt.satanism and relatively new member of the CoS, slanders Tani Jantsang on
both alt.satanism and the Satannet message board.

Schlesinger Interfering with DISINFO

Here is proof of Schlesinger, acting on orders from the Corporation of Satan
(is he a PAID employee?), interfering with another Satanic organization
being in the news.

The CoS Using Spies

The CoS uses spies to investigate and harass other organizations. These
emails and message board postings from Jason Roberts show how.

Shortly after the above was published on the CoS files, Jason Roberts
attempted to have them removed by threatening Ole Wolf with a lawsuit and
later by having two people plead his case. Neither being successful, the
email correspondence now included in the CoS files between Jason Roberts,
Gretchen Bennett, Tani Jantsang, and Ole Wolf soon proved Jason Roberts to
be a liar.

However, Jason Roberts now strikes back--at the COS by admitting and proving
what they did to him, how they threatened him--which is the reason he did
everything exposed elsewhere on this site! A shocker to those who knew him
from the Council before the COS got to him.

Web Site Deleted Due to Censorship

This is an email written by evangelist Bobby Rush showing the CoS
interfering with a Christian Web site, which they had NO BUSINESS poking
their nose into in the first place.

The Suck-Ups

Not only the CoS itself, but also the suck-ups to the CoS think they can
gain points by trashing other organizations. Here is one more example of
people that just can't let other people mind their business. The CoS people
are so obsessed worrying about other organizations. Do we worry about that
other organizations are doing? Hell no: if they leave us alone, we'll gladly
leave them alone.

The suck-upery that demanded of CoS members is perhaps best illustrated by
Rocio Carrasco in this message to alt.satanism, where she openly admits to
unconditional obediance. This politically required level of obedience should
be kept in mind when reading Peter Gilmore's request that CoS members attack
other organizations.

The Chat Logs

Everyone that was ever in the chatrooms run by the CoS officials know of the
behavior of the owners. Here are logs that show it.

On the CoS and Its Policies

Active Recruitment

The CoS claims that it does not recruit members. However, Grotto Masters are
in fact encouraged to recruit members, reporting to a "headquarters" that
doesn't bother to read the reports.

Interesting legal stuff on "Corporations Sole."

The CoS is listed as a "Corporations Sole." This text illuminates what a
"Corporations Sole" legally is. Note comments inside the text.

Aquino on the CoS Funds

This information from Michael Aquino explains which documents reveal what
the CoS "forgets" to inform its membership of in terms of where the fees are
going.

The CoS Divulges Personal Membership Information

The CoS officially states that it keeps information about its membership
confident. However, as this email shows, the CoS does in fact divulge
membership information. Max Barrons, at that time, was opposing the CoS on
alt.satanism.

On the Amsterdam Whore House

The Church of Satan supported a pimp in Amsterdam who ran a brothel and sex
club, using the appeal of the Devil to lure people into his grotto. The
Church of Satan was fully aware of this business, where not all the hookers
were voluntary. Two independent sources know of this, as shown in this
document.

Fascism and Nazism

The CoS may not be a fascist/Nazi organization, according to official
policy. However, one notes that several administrators and highest-ranking
officials in the CoS are just that. Boyd Rice, Jeff Nagy, and Rex Church are
examples of officials that were given titles as Magisters and who are
notably fascist.

Two-Faced Policies of the CoS

Odal noted that by throwing people out for supporting the very same
doctrines as the CoS endorses on the official CoS Web site, the CoS employs
a two-faced policy. His email notifying the Satanic Reds proves this
two-facing.

"Last Train to Satanville"

Having spotted a clear case of two-faced policies in the CoS, Odal was
inspired to write an essay about the situation.

Did Tani Jantsang Ever Meet Anton LaVey?

Tani Jantsang has been part of the occult societies since prior to the
establishment of the CoS. Did she ever meet Anton LaVey? In this essay, Tani
Jantsang relates her first meeting with Anton LaVey.

Blanche Barton Claiming CoS Roots in Dark Doctrines

It was the insight into the dark doctrines, which constitute the foundation
of Satanism, that prompted Anton LaVey to grant Tani Jantsang and Phil Marsh
their titles. While LaVey was still alive, the CoS officially claimed that
its roots derived from these doctrines.

Similarly, Peter Gilmore uses the information embedded in the dark doctrines
on the official CoS page. However, his action of removing the very people
that gave him this information and those who agree with them from the CoS
reveals his true agenda.

Today, when Anton LaVey is dead and the CoS suddenly expels people for
adhering to the dark doctrines, evidently the CoS does not consider the dark
doctrines to form the roots of the CoS. Juxtaposed with its previous
statement, one must conclude that the CoS is thus rootless, based only on
the philisophy of one man, Anton LaVey.

The only reason this information is still on the CoS Web page is presumably
to lure people into the CoS that would otherwise have joined other Satanic
organizations, leading them to believe that the CoS embraces the dark
doctrines.

On the CoS after 1976

Michael Aquino debunks the wild claims made by William Gidney, and Tani
replies to both in this alt.satanism message. In another message, he
similarly reminds William and Ygraine Gidney of their time in the Temple of
Set.

History Revision by the CoS

Now that the dark doctrines crew has been either expelled or asked to
resign, the CoS is quick to apply revisionism to the proof that we provide.
This is one early example.

Here Kevin Filan, acting as a spokesman for the COS, is telling every other
organization out there what not to do; and we all know that if any other
organization does this (or even if they do not!) they can expect harassment
and interferenece from Andre Schlesinger, the unpaid lackey of Peter
Gilmore. You see, the COS as a corporation can't be legally attacked if
Schlesinger does the harassing. Are they sure about that? I seem to remember
the leader of an organization being financially ruined via law suits due to
the actions of three strangers that he never even met; simply because they
read his literature and then bothered people.

Preface to "Dark Force" and "Klippoths"

Some of the information pertaining to the dark doctrines on Hr. Vad's Web
site was an offshot of flames aimed at the ToS. These flames were
specifically requested by Peter Gilmore, who provided Tani Jantsang and Phil
Marsh with incomplete--or perhaps incorrect--information. A necessary
preface to these flames has now been written.

Radu Sums Up

Here Radu sums up the CoS' policies, and how it bullies its members and
other organizations. Also included is a brief discussion between Jeff Gerber
and Ole Wolf.

Blanche Barton's Statements

Rebuttal of Blanche Barton's Letter to Chris Bray

Where do members of the CoS look for "proper behavior?" Apparently Blanche
Barton takes the lead in a letter to Chris Bray about Michael Aquino.

Aquino's rebuttal is right on the money.

Blanche Barton's Misconceptions about Wicca, and Phil Marsh's Reply

Ignored by Wiccans and Pagans, Blanche Barton has a hang-up on feminism
fostered by her patriarchal, Mormon background. Her anger that a bookstore
would not print her writing spawned an article and a ritual against Wiccans
that she published in The Cloven Hoof, issue 127.

Her article was severely mistaken on several accounts, and Phil Marsh felt
compelled to educate her. His reply, which prompted Anton LaVey to grant
Phil Marsh a Magister title, is included in this document.

Regarding the Expulsions

Shane Margolin's Explanation

Shane Margolin was thrown out of the CoS for doing against Schlesinger what
Schlesinger and others in Peter Gilmore's clique are free to do to anyone.
Here is Margolin's explanation.

Justin Moss Resigns

Justin Moss sent his resignation to the CoS email address listed on the CoS
Web site. This is the reply from the CoS, followed by an immediate trolling
of Justin's guest book.

Hr. Vad to Blanche on the Revocation of Tani Jantsang's Title

Vad had been tired of the CoS' odd behavior endorsing bullies at the expense
of Satanism, and had composed a letter. He did not send this letter until he
heard of Blanche Barton's revocation of Tani Jantsang's title as Magistra
that was given to her by Anton LaVey. He then composed another letter
describing the foolishness of Blanche's action, and sent both letters to
her.

Hr. Vad Announces his Being Expelled from the CoS

After having written to Blanche describing that he disagrees with her
revocation of Tani's title and the behavior of the Peter Gilmore clique, Vad
was promptly expelled. This is his announcement of CoS' decision.

Ole Wolf Demands a Refund

Ole Wolf was expelled from the CoS for defending the dark doctrines against
those CoS members that belonged to Peter Gilmore's clique. The CoS had
endorsed the dark doctrines, which were Ole Wolf's reason for joining the
CoS in the first place; since the CoS now rejects the dark doctrines, Ole
Wolf concluded that he had joined the CoS because of deliberately falsified
information. In this letter to Blanche Barton, Ole Wolf demands a refund of
the $100 that was thus wrongly charged.

Ole Wolf Revokes Rights to Translations

While Peter Gilmore paid lip service to the dark doctrines, Ole Wolf was
supportive of the CoS, and his favors included Danish translations of
various texts included on the official CoS Web site. When Peter Gilmore's
lies had been exposed, Ole Wolf informed Peter Gilmore that he had revoked
the rights to the translations.

Ole Wolf revoked the rights to the translations shortly after two email
exchanges. The first one was an exchange between Kaiden Fox and Peter
Gilmore, and the second one a harsh email from Ole Wolf to Peter Gilmore
because of Peter Gilmore's meddling in Timothy Stewart's business.

Disgruntled Members

Morena was on Peggy Nadramia's "shit list" for being friends with Audy
Morgan. She was harassed by the CoS, and explains the events that took place
to Tani in this letter.

"Aragorn" (name withheld) sent a letter to Blanche informing her that she
will not play along with the rules of CoS. "Aragorn" had already been
disillusioned by the CoS due to its silent support of her counter-productive
ex husband at the expense of her.

Other People Involved

This section illustrates what a back-stabbing, mealy-mouthed bunch the
Gilmore clique consists of, people that gang together to hate others even
more than they hate each other.

The Last Email to "Xloptuny" (John Davis) before He Committed Suicide

John Davis ("Xloptuny") was one of the people that was allowed to harass
other CoS members (a Jew) quite vitriolically on alt.satanism. It soon
turned out that his greatest enemy was himself, and his mindless rage is
shown in the last emails he got from Tani, one of the last things this
miserable bastard did while he was alive was indulge in a screaming flame
war over what would have been a joyful thing had not the klippothic CoS
suckups chosen to involve themselves in the making of someone else's chat
room. They had to butt in. Well, at least Xloptuny finally butt out: of
life.

Ygraine Revealing that She Hates André Schlesinger

Ygraine ignores her own desires, and now defends Peter Gilmore and other
people she evidently doesn't like. Her story also shows what André
Schlesinger is made of.

Ygraine had a fit that Tani showed Peggy the email and logs she wrote about
Schlesinger and the entire story of her history with Paul Valentine and
others. The email and logs of Ygraine showing her hatred for Schlesinger got
posted on alt.satanism, and after that Paul Valentine posted his take on it.
All of it appears in this file.

From a CoS Old Timer - Tim Jordan or James Jordan, a/k/a Harry Lime admits
to being the old timer

It is not only the new people joining the CoS that dislike it. Here are the
words of an old timer, who also dislikes the ruler/serf mentality.

Regarding Sir Chaos

Sir Chaos was one who first opposed the fascist faction headed by Peter
Gilmore, but after Peter Gilmore had lied sufficiently to Sir Chaos, Sir
Chaos suffered the selective amnesia that characterizes those who are scared
of being expelled from the CoS. In this message to alt.satanism, Amina
refreshes Sir Chaos' memory.

Amina is not the only person that dislikes Chaos. Here is a chat log with a
"CoS insider" talking about Chaos.

Anonymous Post to Lupo

Lupo is not a member of the CoS. However, it is remarkable how the CoS
condones his hostility against Peter Gilmore's opponents compared to their
actions taken against those who oppose Peter Gilmore's clique. Lupo's hating
the dark doctrines crew was caused by a flame written to someone else by a
fifteen year old gay queen several years ago. This message, by an anonymous
poster, analyzes a statement made by Lupo.

UNQUOTE

[Kori Houghton]

Post by Tani Jantsang ©
Tyagi, WHY do you manage to MISS who wrote this page when it's on the
bottom?

Yes, yes...Ole Wolf. One of the three "founders" of Satanic Reds. The
other two being yourself and Brendan/Prole/Proletariat. Therefore, a
founder of SRs wrote the page, a person who supposedly joined the COS
because of the DDocs. DDocs are supposedly based on Tani's "Kishite"
group from decades earlier. Looks like the "COS Files" are a "Tani&co"
project.

HTH,
Kori

PS: Peter Gilmore was excellent in the bits Bobo quoted. I was
actually impressed, which is a rarity.

Post by Tani Jantsang ©
QUOTE
The CoS Files
Keywords: the Church of Satan, CoS, C/S, Satanism, Satan, Dark

Doctrines,

Post by Tani Jantsang ©
Cult, Crime, Corporation Sole, Fraud, Scam, Religious Harassment,
Intimidation, Bullying, Anton LaVey, Blanche Barton, Peter Gilmore, Peggy
Nadramia, Prostitution.
Last updated: February 27, 2001.
This collection of files document how the Church of Satan (CoS) uses lies
and two-faced policies, discloses personal membership information, requests
that its members harass other people and other organizations, all in order
to recruit people who will pay $100 in membership registration.
Some members of the CoS would rather believe that the documentation found in
these files is not correct, and have attempted to dismiss it as "hearsay,"
"out of context," etc. I have compiled a reply to the various

objections.

Post by Tani Jantsang ©
My personal involvement in the CoS was exclusively based on the CoS'
endorsement of the dark doctrines. Today, the CoS has radically departed
from this policy--or more specifically, this collection of files shows that
the people now in charge of the CoS never had that policy. I was expelled
from the CoS for defending the dark doctrines, as were others; some others
simply resigned; yet others still hope the CoS may "return" to a state they
have yet to realize it was never in.
When I encountered the CoS, it was the only organization that

endorsed the

Post by Tani Jantsang ©
dark doctrines. Today, several Satanic organizations embrace the dark
doctrines. Now that the CoS has turned its back on the dark

doctrines, it is

Post by Tani Jantsang ©
these other organizations that offer Satanism while the CoS offers nothing
but a group wailing ground for suffering egos in need of delusions of worth.
What is documented in these files is only the tip of the iceberg. I have
left the organization unscarred, but others who are still in the
organization are subject to harassment, intimidation,

depersonalization, and

Post by Tani Jantsang ©
other forms of "education" (Blanche Barton's word)--and apparently some
enjoy it. Steer clear of this organization!
I am hosting this documentation to save people the $100, the

divulgation of

Post by Tani Jantsang ©
their personal data, and their wasted time, and to make up for my share of
the responsibility of luring people into the CoS with the promise of
Satanism.
See also The Emperor's New Religion, which is an analysis of the Church of
Satan. (About 2 MBytes, and requires the Adobe Acrobat Reader).
Ole Wolf.
UNQUOTE
SEE THE AUTHOR'S NAME ON THERE? HIS html, was on HIS site where this page
is from. Foot notes to HIS essay.
You know, it's clear to me that you do not want to KNOW what all happened -
but instead want to believe that it has something to do with me - when I was
the LAST person to be involved in the mess. You also missed MY letter (that
predates the files) to BARTON - or failed to notice WHO it was

addressed to.

Post by Tani Jantsang ©
Or that it ending up on the COS files means that the letter got OUTED.

[Tani Jantsang ©]

Three founders of SR? Uh, no. The actual people involved, SOME of them, are
PICTURED right on our site. Not three.

Post by Tani Jantsang ©
Tyagi, WHY do you manage to MISS who wrote this page when it's on the
bottom?

Yes, yes...Ole Wolf. One of the three "founders" of Satanic Reds. The
other two being yourself and Brendan/Prole/Proletariat. Therefore, a
founder of SRs wrote the page, a person who supposedly joined the COS
because of the DDocs. DDocs are supposedly based on Tani's "Kishite"
group from decades earlier. Looks like the "COS Files" are a "Tani&co"
project.

HTH,
Kori

PS: Peter Gilmore was excellent in the bits Bobo quoted. I was
actually impressed, which is a rarity.

Post by Tani Jantsang ©
QUOTE
The CoS Files
Keywords: the Church of Satan, CoS, C/S, Satanism, Satan, Dark

Doctrines,

Post by Tani Jantsang ©
Cult, Crime, Corporation Sole, Fraud, Scam, Religious Harassment,
Intimidation, Bullying, Anton LaVey, Blanche Barton, Peter Gilmore, Peggy
Nadramia, Prostitution.
Last updated: February 27, 2001.
This collection of files document how the Church of Satan (CoS) uses lies
and two-faced policies, discloses personal membership information, requests
that its members harass other people and other organizations, all in order
to recruit people who will pay $100 in membership registration.
Some members of the CoS would rather believe that the documentation found in
these files is not correct, and have attempted to dismiss it as "hearsay,"
"out of context," etc. I have compiled a reply to the various

objections.

Post by Tani Jantsang ©
My personal involvement in the CoS was exclusively based on the CoS'
endorsement of the dark doctrines. Today, the CoS has radically departed
from this policy--or more specifically, this collection of files shows that
the people now in charge of the CoS never had that policy. I was expelled
from the CoS for defending the dark doctrines, as were others; some others
simply resigned; yet others still hope the CoS may "return" to a state they
have yet to realize it was never in.
When I encountered the CoS, it was the only organization that

endorsed the

Post by Tani Jantsang ©
dark doctrines. Today, several Satanic organizations embrace the dark
doctrines. Now that the CoS has turned its back on the dark

doctrines, it is

Post by Tani Jantsang ©
these other organizations that offer Satanism while the CoS offers nothing
but a group wailing ground for suffering egos in need of delusions of worth.
What is documented in these files is only the tip of the iceberg. I have
left the organization unscarred, but others who are still in the
organization are subject to harassment, intimidation,

depersonalization, and

Post by Tani Jantsang ©
other forms of "education" (Blanche Barton's word)--and apparently some
enjoy it. Steer clear of this organization!
I am hosting this documentation to save people the $100, the

divulgation of

Post by Tani Jantsang ©
their personal data, and their wasted time, and to make up for my share of
the responsibility of luring people into the CoS with the promise of
Satanism.
See also The Emperor's New Religion, which is an analysis of the Church of
Satan. (About 2 MBytes, and requires the Adobe Acrobat Reader).
Ole Wolf.
UNQUOTE
SEE THE AUTHOR'S NAME ON THERE? HIS html, was on HIS site where this page
is from. Foot notes to HIS essay.
You know, it's clear to me that you do not want to KNOW what all happened -
but instead want to believe that it has something to do with me - when I was
the LAST person to be involved in the mess. You also missed MY letter (that
predates the files) to BARTON - or failed to notice WHO it was

addressed to.

Post by Tani Jantsang ©
Or that it ending up on the COS files means that the letter got OUTED.

[Kori Houghton]

Post by Tani Jantsang ©
Three founders of SR? Uh, no. The actual people involved, SOME of them, are
PICTURED right on our site. Not three.

Ummmm....not what you said here, but Tani was never a stickler for
consistency!


-------------------------------------------------
From: "People's Commissar" <***@www.com>
Newsgroups: alt.satanism
Subject: Re: Getting past Kindergarten?
Date: Sat, 13 Apr 2002 15:48:31 -0400
Organization: Posted via Supernews, http://www.supernews.com
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<***@socket.net> <***@corp.supernews.com>
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<***@corp.supernews.com>
<woody-***@newssvr21-ext.news.prodigy.com>
X-Priority: 3
X-MSMail-Priority: Normal
X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4807.1700
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X-Complaints-To: ***@supernews.com
Lines: 198

ME go at it with Scratch? What the hell are you talking about? THIS
below?
There is no hatred there. Only facts. Yes, hate consumes from within.
The reason why SR ended up a success is that there is SUN SHINING on
there,
and that is what love is like. The org was never made to counter
anything,
not even xianity. Is this what you call hate? Put your glasses on.
There
is no hate in this post at all. Just clearing the air. You have a
weird
definition of hate.

Alt.satanism post.

Post by Tani Jantsang ©

Post by Tani Jantsang ©

****Snip irrelevant rants****

Considering who the other co-founders of the SR are, it's reasonable
Dr.
Aquino would definitely think that. Who are the other co-founders?
BRENDAN - THE Brendan, one of the flame monsters from hell, (he has
since
grown up and gained a lot of clarity into just WHAT makes people
banter,
ball bust, rag and nag and trash and flame like that - good for him).
Ole
Wolf also founded it, tho he has his own organization now for Danes.
Ole
Wolf was ahem, a vicious flamer. Ole Wolf owned one of the mailers of
"many
emails" from what might be rightly termed storm troopers, in case you
don't
recognize that "slip" emailer. That's Ole's. So yeah, it was
important to
clear the air.

Post by Tani Jantsang ©

Post by Tani Jantsang ©

****Snip remaining rants****
check archives if you wanna read it

TJ

--------------------------------

Even if there were more than three, Ole Wolf is one, by your own
statement above.

Luv,
Kori

Post by Tani Jantsang ©

Post by Tani Jantsang ©
Tyagi, WHY do you manage to MISS who wrote this page when it's on the
bottom?

Yes, yes...Ole Wolf. One of the three "founders" of Satanic Reds.

The

Post by Tani Jantsang ©
other two being yourself and Brendan/Prole/Proletariat. Therefore, a
founder of SRs wrote the page, a person who supposedly joined the COS
because of the DDocs. DDocs are supposedly based on Tani's "Kishite"
group from decades earlier. Looks like the "COS Files" are a

"Tani&co"

Post by Tani Jantsang ©
project.
HTH,
Kori
PS: Peter Gilmore was excellent in the bits Bobo quoted. I was
actually impressed, which is a rarity.

Post by Tani Jantsang ©
QUOTE
The CoS Files
Keywords: the Church of Satan, CoS, C/S, Satanism, Satan, Dark

Doctrines,

Post by Tani Jantsang ©
Cult, Crime, Corporation Sole, Fraud, Scam, Religious Harassment,
Intimidation, Bullying, Anton LaVey, Blanche Barton, Peter Gilmore,

Peggy

Post by Tani Jantsang ©
Nadramia, Prostitution.
Last updated: February 27, 2001.
This collection of files document how the Church of Satan (CoS)

uses

Post by Tani Jantsang ©
lies

Post by Tani Jantsang ©
and two-faced policies, discloses personal membership information,

requests

Post by Tani Jantsang ©
that its members harass other people and other organizations, all

in

Post by Tani Jantsang ©
order

Post by Tani Jantsang ©
to recruit people who will pay $100 in membership registration.
Some members of the CoS would rather believe that the documentation

found in

Post by Tani Jantsang ©
these files is not correct, and have attempted to dismiss it as

"hearsay,"

Post by Tani Jantsang ©
"out of context," etc. I have compiled a reply to the various

objections.

Post by Tani Jantsang ©
My personal involvement in the CoS was exclusively based on the CoS'
endorsement of the dark doctrines. Today, the CoS has radically

departed

Post by Tani Jantsang ©
from this policy--or more specifically, this collection of files

shows that

Post by Tani Jantsang ©
the people now in charge of the CoS never had that policy. I was

expelled

Post by Tani Jantsang ©
from the CoS for defending the dark doctrines, as were others; some

others

Post by Tani Jantsang ©
simply resigned; yet others still hope the CoS may "return" to a

state they

Post by Tani Jantsang ©
have yet to realize it was never in.
When I encountered the CoS, it was the only organization that

endorsed the

Post by Tani Jantsang ©
dark doctrines. Today, several Satanic organizations embrace the dark
doctrines. Now that the CoS has turned its back on the dark

doctrines, it is

Post by Tani Jantsang ©
these other organizations that offer Satanism while the CoS offers

nothing

Post by Tani Jantsang ©
but a group wailing ground for suffering egos in need of delusions

of

Post by Tani Jantsang ©
worth.

Post by Tani Jantsang ©
What is documented in these files is only the tip of the iceberg. I

have

Post by Tani Jantsang ©
left the organization unscarred, but others who are still in the
organization are subject to harassment, intimidation,

depersonalization, and

Post by Tani Jantsang ©
other forms of "education" (Blanche Barton's word)--and apparently

some

Post by Tani Jantsang ©
enjoy it. Steer clear of this organization!
I am hosting this documentation to save people the $100, the

divulgation of

Post by Tani Jantsang ©
their personal data, and their wasted time, and to make up for my

share of

Post by Tani Jantsang ©
the responsibility of luring people into the CoS with the promise of
Satanism.
See also The Emperor's New Religion, which is an analysis of the

Church of

Post by Tani Jantsang ©
Satan. (About 2 MBytes, and requires the Adobe Acrobat Reader).
Ole Wolf.
UNQUOTE
SEE THE AUTHOR'S NAME ON THERE? HIS html, was on HIS site where

this

Post by Tani Jantsang ©
page

Post by Tani Jantsang ©
is from. Foot notes to HIS essay.
You know, it's clear to me that you do not want to KNOW what all

happened -

Post by Tani Jantsang ©
but instead want to believe that it has something to do with me -

when I was

Post by Tani Jantsang ©
the LAST person to be involved in the mess. You also missed MY

letter (that

Post by Tani Jantsang ©
predates the files) to BARTON - or failed to notice WHO it was

addressed to.

Post by Tani Jantsang ©
Or that it ending up on the COS files means that the letter got

OUTED.

[Tani Jantsang ©]

UH, AQUINO would not know anyone other than Ole, Brendan and me. The post
refers to AQUINO - DOH! SR has roots - and they are exactly what they are
and nothing less or more. Ole was never part of the Kishites - he barely
knew anything about it - even IF he may have heard some of us talking or
seen things in email he didn't have clue about. He kinda knew me over a
phone. Brendan wasn't for his inclusion - and neither were any of the
others who had SOME familiarity with his doings and his OWN gripe against
the COS. Remember, HIS gripe is not MY gripe. I'd not even have HAD a
gripe - if not for uh... money. :) Go on now, hit me with that DISLOYALTY
tripe. Ya know, Jeff never told me what to do. He asked me to do for pay.
I do not cotton to ANYONE butting into my shit and telling me who to chat
with in my own freaking room (Les Masters, they BITCHED at that, the nerve
of them!) - or what to think or tell me who to flame or hang out with or not
hang out with. FUCK that! I wonder if they look at themselves now - wonder
at how RIGHT I WAS about those specific people that bugged me, and wonder at
the GALL they thought they had, telling me who to chat with in my own room,
or telling me anything else of that nature. HA HA.

Those are the ONLY PEOPLE Aquino - got that - AQUINO might take note of.
DUH.

There are COS members, present AND former, AND some SR founders that
contributed essays in "Is Fascism Satanic." I just posted some good ones to
let Tyagi (who wants to archive? this old stuff) know exactly what was
actually PUT ON any websites regarding Stewart's (Tim's) project. But he
better start learning how to read!

If you go about believing everything you hear on usenet - you'll continue to
be the shit slinging fool you are. GO TO THE WEBSITES the orgs put up - for
the real deal. NOT ON USENET. Catch a clue - tho I realize clues can't
stick to you even with Gorilla clue glue. You need to learn to read with a
finer tuned eye to WHAT it's referring to. Aquino would KNOW Brendan and
Ole. Ole thought it was a good idea to do the SR - but the fact is, babe,
he contributed NOTHING to the SR organization except a sigil that no one
ever used and he sure the hell did NOT know the site was up when another
founder PUT IT up on a domain and told NO ONE. Ole didn't even know, in
any way shape or form, MOST of the people involved. He may have talked to
Casey, I'm not sure. But Aquino wouldn't know Casey. Meet the Founders.
It's up there. Only a clueless Harper Valley girl (you) would rely on
usenet as the ULTIMATE source.

And so do your happy customers RELY on your shit slinging on usenet to judge
your service and your character? HA HA. Eat your own words. This IS
usenet. Anything even serious said on here is either debate, flame or
whatnot - but for orgs GO TO THE SOURCE - and the source sure the hell is
not usenet. The ONLY Srs that post on here are Delilah and Chas Nemo - oh,
and pirate. He's an SR, too, but he rarely posts on here.

"Kori Houghton" <***@hotmail.com> wrote in message news:***@z14g2000cwz.googlegroups.com...

spewed.

[SOD of the CoE]

50041213 viii om Hail Satan! Sivamoon! Back in town!

"Kori Houghton" <***@hotmail.com>:
# Yes, yes...Ole Wolf. One of the three "founders" of Satanic Reds.
# The other two being yourself and Brendan/Prole/Proletariat.
# Therefore, a founder of SRs wrote the page, a person who supposedly
# joined the COS because of the DDocs. DDocs are supposedly based on
# Tani's "Kishite" group from decades earlier. Looks like the "COS
# Files" are a "Tani&co" project.

correct. it is close enough for the extensive crap it included,
far more than is needed in most cases. maybe it'll be really
integrated into their "Emperor's New Religion" document in its
most relevant portions. this now appears its primary purpose.
I'll check out the latter PDF if I feel like it, but since I
really can't quote from that extensively here and it might be
more technically difficult, I may go back to Satanist websites.

# PS: Peter Gilmore was excellent in the bits Bobo quoted.
# I was actually impressed, which is a rarity.

hey, I've been more and more impressed by the Church of Satan as I
try to get to the bottom of these slams and complaints by Tani&Co.
instead of seeing the truth of the slams I'm seeing more substance
all the time from the CoS. I tried to get through that quickly (and
was apparently given an old crappy copy to start the reading of it;
maybe it was intentional), followed by the slam on me for
"misreading" it. riiiiight. ;>

thanks for the corrections after the fact, Tani.
I'll watch for the details as I look your post over.

blessed beast!

boboroshi at-sign satanservice.org: Satanic Outreach Director
Church of Euthanasia: http://www.churchofeuthanasia.org/
TOKUS WEBLINKS: http://dmoz.org/Bookmarks/B/boboroshi/
Ninth Scholar's Library (Satanism Archive): http://www.satanservice.org/

[Tani Jantsang ©]

Post by SOD of the CoE
50041213 viii om Hail Satan! Sivamoon! Back in town!
# Yes, yes...Ole Wolf. One of the three "founders" of Satanic Reds.
# The other two being yourself and Brendan/Prole/Proletariat.
# Therefore, a founder of SRs wrote the page, a person who supposedly
# joined the COS because of the DDocs. DDocs are supposedly based on
# Tani's "Kishite" group from decades earlier. Looks like the "COS
# Files" are a "Tani&co" project.
correct.

ZZZT, not correct. Please read what I've posted TO you with /ping Tyagi on
it. Ole and Brendan were the only two that AQUINO WOULD BE FAMILIAR WITH.
The FOUNDERS are pictures on our website, Tyagi. Don't rely on usenet or
on the "information" of people outside the org. And again, Ole contributed
nothing to the SR except a sigil that was NEVER USED. Got it?

it is close enough for the extensive crap it included,

Post by SOD of the CoE
far more than is needed in most cases. maybe it'll be really
integrated into their "Emperor's New Religion" document in its
most relevant portions. this now appears its primary purpose.
I'll check out the latter PDF if I feel like it, but since I
really can't quote from that extensively here and it might be
more technically difficult, I may go back to Satanist websites.
# PS: Peter Gilmore was excellent in the bits Bobo quoted.
# I was actually impressed, which is a rarity.
hey, I've been more and more impressed by the Church of Satan as I
try to get to the bottom of these slams and complaints by Tani&Co.

Yes yes, you try to make a good spin doctor for Gilmore - sorry, but I could
do a better job of it myself if I wanted to. Now, you either want the
information - all of it in order that it happened, or you do not. The
relevant and best portions of the STEWART document are posted here to YOU
under /ping Tyagi. Consider that this project of his was ongoing BEFORE any
shit hit any fans. He had it on the LTTD COS message board. Next he posted
it. Next he came to us in another chatroom for essays. He got them. What
was the problem with that? Nothing, from what I could see. Ygraine got
Gilmore to "inspect" Stew's work - and he chose to concern himself with
something that was a lot TAMER than anything DeBoo wrote. Oh, ooops, right,
Sycophants Unite was written specifically with DEBOO in mind.

Post by SOD of the CoE
instead of seeing the truth of the slams I'm seeing more substance
all the time from the CoS. I tried to get through that quickly (and
was apparently given an old crappy copy to start the reading of it;
maybe it was intentional), followed by the slam on me for
"misreading" it. riiiiight. ;>

No, you attributed Ole's article to me. Listen up - HIS reasons for
disliking them are NOT the same as my reasons at all. Got it?

Post by SOD of the CoE
thanks for the corrections after the fact, Tani.
I'll watch for the details as I look your post over.

Read the posts I just made then. Go fo rit. And btw, these other ngs are
bitching about these cross posts.

Post by SOD of the CoE
blessed beast!
boboroshi at-sign satanservice.org: Satanic Outreach Director
Church of Euthanasia: http://www.churchofeuthanasia.org/
TOKUS WEBLINKS: http://dmoz.org/Bookmarks/B/boboroshi/
Ninth Scholar's Library (Satanism Archive): http://www.satanservice.org/

[nagasiva]

50041214 viii om Hail Satan!

thanks for the additional help, Tani!

#> reviewing initial files in the
#> 2/27/2001 version of "The CoS Files"
#> -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=

subpage this document was an earlier version I had on-hand:

Peter Gilmore Scaring Timothy Stewart
http://www.luckymojo.com/satanism/firstchurchofsatan/cosfiles/Peter_to_Stewart.html

"Last updated: January 20, 2001." I doubt it is too far
off, but I'm making some of the corrections you've helped
identify below, thanks, Tani. I tossed all the new ones
you recently sent me in abject despair. :>

#># Peter: [apparently conversing with Tani&Co] "...I was
#># told [by Tim?] that you present erroneous information
#># about the Church of Satan as if it were factual, and
#># that claim did require investigation. I found it to be
#># true...."

Tani:
# Peter wrote that to TIM - and he was told it by other people
# that hated Tim's project on anti/fascism.

faceless, nameless people?

# For some very odd reason, Tim's objective project was
# muddled up with some notion that Tim was going against
# the COS....

more vague phrases. HP Gilmore is more precise.

#># Peter: [to Tani&Co, re Tim's/Stewart's "survey" file] ...
#
# No, Peter to TIM.

actually unclear, if he thought you wrote part of it or that
it was a Tani&Co construction (written by 'the Tani clique',
or as you prefer 'The Vad Clique' :>), but I'll take your
word for it, since the presentation implies it consistently.

#> something which Tani tends to inform others,
#> interestingly. I'm sure I've reviewed this material
#> in just this way before at some time in the past.
#
# Peter wrote that to TIM.

that doesn't have anything to do with my comment. ;>

I knew that he was overtly responding to a document that
sported Tim as author, (he's quoting it as 'Stewart',
else he'd put 'Tani' instead). Ole appears to have let
one 'Tani' squeak by by mistake when it was supposed
to be Tim -- see below; you claim this is an error
and I'm inclined to believe you about two of them, but
in the context of Tim's "lie", it is extremely amusing).

# ...WHY would anyone object to such a venture?

they would object to that venture if it seemed like it was
fractious of the Church of Satan, already explained elsewhere.
HP Gilmore gave many good reasons and invited the treasonous
wayward to resign their posts. apparently you were later
terminated in your entitlement.

# For the same reasons that they wrote
# "Sychophants Unite" against Jeff Deboo? Perhaps.

Deboo isn't mentioned in that article. :>

#># PROJECT 1
#>#
#># Stewart: By: Timothy Stewart Epperhart - "Wolf At Hart"...
#>
#> apparently Tim either agreed initially to present himself
#> as author or was presented as such by Tani&Co.
#
# Jesus man. Tim had this idea to do this long before I
# ever heard of it. I finally got to hear he wanted
# essays about a few months later. Sure, I said, I could
# get people to write their thoughts on it.

so then Tim lied about you making you making him alter it?

in the earlier version of this text appears something
between your contentions, and it seems that *someone*
did make adjustments to his text (I think this sounds
more like you than Ole):

What happened after Tim Stewart got this email from Gilmore? Tim was on
voice chat and in the room and everyone involved witnessed his abject
terror of Gilmore. Jacqueline Davis also admits he was terrified - of
losing his stupid membership. He tried to cop out by telling Gilmore that
"Tani wrote his commentary." Noooo, Casey edited it to make it readable,
but the original was still intact and seen by all. Tim Stewart wrote it.
Every word of it. He then confessed to Gilmore that he forgot he wrote it
(!!) and continued to call this act of cowardice "a misconception." Of
course, everyone excited about his Project One and who submitted essays to
it turned ice cold toward Tim after that. The entire collection of essays
can now be seen on Satanic Reds www.geocities.com/satanicreds/ under the
title "Is Fascism Satanic." It is an excellent collection of informative
essays.

what did he say you made him do, exactly, when he had this
selective amnesia which Ole describes? Ole apparently says:

Stewart immediately suffered selective amnesia,
claiming that Tani had made him alter his document.

given that this is in a section about HP Gilmore intimidating
membership, this is supposed to represent an example of him
doing so. because Tim agreed with HP Gilmore about your role
with respect to this at least Ole thought Tim changed sides
because he was afraid of Gilmore (you bring forward Jacqueline
Davis as a witness in the above, which is helpful), and his
losing his CoS membership. possibly there was a more
terrifying implication than can be imagined (hey, these
people are messin' with Kathulu Kreechurz :(EIIII ).

#># Stewart: The statements made by Magistrate Nadramia
#># in her "speculation on similarities between Fascism and
#># Satanism" are noted and should be viewed for relevance.
#># The URL for that article is or was:
#># http://www.apodion.com/vad/cos/s_n_Nazi.shtml (It is
#># also in "Is Fascism Satanic" on
#># www.geocities.com/satanicreds/
#>#
#># Peter: "This article is still relevant (and
#># was heartily endorsed by Anton LaVey - which doesn't
#># require that you do likewise), and it was interesting
#># to note how some of your respondents supplied their own
#># definitions for fascism - essentially putting a spin on
#># what Magistra Nadramia had said very clearly, then
#># argued against it. More 'straw man' tactics, which are
#># among the methodologies used by demagogues."

# ...Tim's respondents (Tim IS Stewart) wrote their
# own essays - period. ...

non-sequitur, the argument was against the rationality of
the presentations as regards fascism and the methods of
argument employed by the 'survey'-participants evaluated
as a response to Magistra Nadramia, now the HPs.

#># later, at a time of greater desperation for the Nazi
#># State."
#>
#> this should stand as HP Gilmore's understanding of the
#> WWII Holocaust at the time of writing.
#>
#> now we enter some of the convolution. it appears that
#> LATER comments by Tani here are interrupting the
#> original commentary, *then* HP Gilmore's response to it,
#> below:
#
# ...NOWHERE in that email is Peter responding to ME. Peter
# wrote that to TIM, in response to TIM's words. I saw it later - and put
# some of my own comments IN there. Isn't it clear on there who said what?

not on the version I examined, sorry. also not in the version
which I'd collected from Egan previously. you had to correct
my guesses in many instances. this is why I suggested that its
inclusion as footnotes to the Emperor essay might be much better
employment. as it stands it looks like your writing, especially
initially

#># Tani1: But the "ideal of fascism" present today in
#># Satanism is founded upon the notion that certain
#># magical meanings exist behind ancient symbols, e.g.,
#># the Swastika.

# I did NOT write that . TIM DID.

funny, at:
Peter Gilmore Scaring Timothy Stewart
http://www.luckymojo.com/satanism/firstchurchofsatan/cosfiles/Peter_to_Stewart.html

there was originally also
Tani: But the "ideal of fascism" present today in Satanism
is founded upon the notion that certain magical meanings
exist behind ancient symbols, e.g., the Swastika.

Peter: [This statement is complete bunk. Which Satanists
said this and where?]

I added a note or two. thanks Tani. it wasn't making as much
sense the ways I'd received it so far from Egan and Ole. :>

#># Peter: ""This statement is complete bunk. Which
#># Satanists said this and where?""
#>#
#># Tani2: You said "in Satanism." You did not say in COS.
#># The statement is not bunk at all. MANY other Satanic
#># orgs, november9.org eg, claim it to be a magical
#># symbol. Especially, this is so of the Odinist types who
#># claim to be Satanists.
#
# I said that to TIM as a comment. I did not say that to Peter. Peter did
# not say a thing to ME in there.

now you've cleared that error up, thanks.

# I did NOT ammend or edit Tim's email at all.

I hear ya, and believe what you say, thanks.
it appears that Casey edited the thing.
a friend of yours, maybe?

#> 'Social Realist 10-Point agenda
#> (also mimicking LaVey's "[5] Point Plan").

thanks. do you as well have 9 Satanic Statements
or egocentric extraspecial 11 Rules of Earth?

# ...No mimicking involved....

really?
yowza, you mean because the numbers are different?

# If someone comes up with a clarifying 11th point -
# it would go up there.

then it might become comparable to the Earth-Rule Dodecad.


THIS appears to be a key point, for which no evidence
is provided, and Harry may chime here harmonically.

#>#> Stewart: Herd mentality is a sin in CoS doctrine and
#>#> it is noted: how else would the Nazis be able to
#>#> exterminate a race? On a personal level? Was this a way
#>#> for an ideal form of stratification?
#>#
#># Peter: "Did anyone say it was?"
#>
#> weakly separating the CoS from neo-naziism as have many
#> of their essays which were part of discussions within
#> their own publications (also in response to those
#> such as Jeffrey Deboo). later discernment is stronger.

#> [Tim] didn't save [key emails from people] in the upper
#> echelon of the church ACTUALLY saying those things to him.

# Some of those people were Mags in the cos - and their
# stuff IS in the TBF magazine.

issue numbers? page numbers? names? I might have 'em.
maybe some kind soul will quote them here. :>
I'm not sure what it will prove though. see elsewhere.

#># interpretations of issues of sociology, politics,
#># and biology. This "faction" clearly plays
#># "Inquisition" and labels those members of the Church
#># of Satan who disagree with them as "Klippoths"
#
# Sorry, that was Ole's "strict interpretation" of things ....

interesting, I think I recall you using such strength of
rejection and characterizing disagreement in similar
terminology. I'd be amused to see examples.

#># Peter: "Essentially this defines the tactics used by
#># the Tani clique (Agree with our way of 'correcting'
#># LaVey or be branded a 'Klippoth'),

# NO, that was absolutely NOT my way.... [It was Ole's.]

someone you used to run with did, eh? 'klippoth' rubbed
off a little on ya I know.

# ...I'm tired of taking the blame for the behavior of others....

good thing you're around to correct the errors then.

I'm including a note from you to this effect (that it was Ole's
usual behaviour to do this moreso than yours; perhaps this will
demonstrate my lack of bias against you :>).

# Go tell that to DeBoo - a loner and individual that merited the BIG
# "Sychophants Unite" article - just for him.

yes, you've said that. why doesn't it mention Deboo?

I was looking here, for example:

Sycophants
http://www.churchofsatan.com/Pages/Syco.html

and didn't find 'Deboo' anywhere, though his clash
with CoS wouldn't have surprised me. he wasn't a member
of the church was he? I didn't recall and the essay that
I wrote on his material at:

THE SATANISM OF JDEBOO
http://www.luckymojo.com/avidyana/shaitan/jdeboo.txt

#># Stewart: The proponents of this Organizational Fascism
#># Peter: "Whom you have still failed to identify."
#># Tani: WE WILL identify them, hell, the book "Lucifer
#># Rising" identified them!

# Keep in mind, that is my COMMENTARY on the email Peter
# mailed to Tim.

it seems clear enough, yes. I have "Lucifer Rising".
so point them out to me. Boyd? some Black Metal d00dz?

#> the fact that Tani&Co had not identified them here and
#> relies upon Baddeley's book for data is quite amusing.

# Some of them are identified in those files. When Ole got
# THOROUGH info, he put it up there.

do you mean: Boyd Rice, Jeff Nagy, and Rex Church?

it is true that Boyd Rice is written up in books such as
in "Lucifer Rising" and that he is an advocate of fascism.
did the CoS kick him out, or something? were *they* ever
giving the impression that they were speaking for the CoS?

#># Peter: "Again, you've presented no evidence whatsoever
#># that there exists a faction of 'Nazi Revisionist
#># Satanists' in the Church of Satan, much less that such
#># a mythical faction has any power in the organization."

# LMAO - is that why they are all purged out or encouraged
# to leave after Jeff did what he did? LMAO. Who they are
# is evident from reading Black Flame magazine! They were
# open about it.

I saw some of that element in the few Black Flames that I
was given by the High Priestess. along with a similar gift
of the excellent book by Bardon, whose better I hope but do
not entirely rest assured I'll find in Aquino's book of
very similar name, they were so excellent I integrated
their covers into my collage poster work of that time period.

they're around somewhere, carcasses, so I can vouch for
a stream of symbolism, text. all this is now gone
from church publications, as far as you know?

#># 'pie-in-the-sky' form of idealism which I find
#># incompatible with the essential pragmatism of
#># Satanism). And to reiterate what I said above, if some
#># Satanists want to satisfy themselves with such dreams,
#># they may, so long as they don't identify them with the
#># aims of the Church of Satan, which are emphatically not
#># political, nor are they idealistic."
#>
#> something which the "Satanic Reds" (/"Social Realists")
#> have pinpointed as their line of departure. having
#> identified a subsector of the Satanist community with
#> which the Church of Satan can truly have no quarrel as
#> long as it isn't identified as *originating* from said
#> Church, they have paraded this under the flag of crypto-
#> Stalinism as an echo of the apparent heritage of Tani
#> (whose father was apparently an NKVD agent).

# Problem with that theory - as Brendan pointed out,
# SR existed in 1997 before I was online.

why is its supposed origin of 1997 pertinent?
something is being missed by someone. :>

#># 'Fascist faction infecting' our Church of Satan. You
#># assert this as fact without offering any concrete
#># evidence."
#
# Yes, he didn't SAVE the god damned evidence - which is one
# reason Ole started demanding FULL evidence, and not this
# kind of shit. The evidence would be in the Black Flame
# magazine itself.

depends on the significance of the phrase, and he may have
meant it less sharply than you've asserted it was. some
publication supported by a church doesn't mean that the
church agrees with everything that goes into it. SNUFF IT!
is exactly the same way, so are many other corporations'
communication forums. they do not have to be an accurate
reflection of the organization and contributors are said
to be responsible for their own viewpoints. those who do
not hold common values with the cult, such as wayward bigots
or supremacists or anti-whatevers, within an organization
or publication that tends to have members opposing such
politics, might express themselves for a bit within very
liberal communities before support rallies against them
in some manner and casts them out (this goes as much for
the ejection of the rationalist Satanists as extremists
like neo-nazis).

# ALSO When DeBoo wrote anti fascist tracts, he was not directing
# that toward fascism WITHIN the COS (which IS what inspired TIM
# to do this project...). ...DeBoo was talking about fascism
# within satanism PERIOD - not just the COS.

I can confirm that much, I interviewed him and analyzed his
text a half dozen years ago in the above, and while his
expression was often critical of organizations, he was
primarily focussed on Satanism as a whole, not just the
type which may have supported the publication in which
his text appeared (such as The Black Flame and others).

#># Tani1: That is not what provoked you [apparently Tim]
#># to write this at all - and you should have TOLD them this.
#># But this IS what everyone else thought it was about!
#># ME TOO, as you can see from my first response. Phil too,
#># see by his response. Everyone thought that, just about.

# That is my note to TIM - not to Peter. I have notes IN
# this email from Peter to Tim.

another unclarity, thanks for straightening that one out.

#># Peter: "Such is the usual course of action for those who
#># can't bear to be without a 'goodguy badge.' And, as Dr.
#># LaVey pointed out, all wearers of goodguy badges need
#># an audience - hence the 'project' satisfies this dictum.
#>#
#># Tani2: Oh, I think the stuff YOU wrote is confrontational
#># as hell. Seeing this, I made mine more confrontational. :)
#># I spoke what I felt. Simple as that.

# I wrote that regarding TIM's stuff.

helpful correction, thanks.

#> *4th* pass by Stewart after Tani:
#>
#># Stewart NO

# Peter TO TIM:

# Your concluding paragraph above has
#># the tenor, if not the literary skills, of missives I
#># recall reading which date from 1975. They were written
#># by a self-righteous Michael Aquino who had convinced
#># himself that the Church of Satan had sold-out on its
#># principles. LaVey pointed out to him that he really
#># didn't understand those principles in the first place
#># and really didn't understand how the organization as a
#># whole was being run. I am now saying the same to you
#># and those who share your delusion. In some of the
#># forwarded email exchanges from the "Tani-clique"
#># preceding this "project," I noted a railing against
#># the concept of hierarchy in the Church of Satan -
#># redefining it into something non-natural and then
#># shooting it down (the same tactic as is used in this
#># "fascism project").

JESUZ TANI! corrected at all archived material!!

# You have the who said what to who pretty confused.

I do, right. maybe you have a newer version, but the
previous two both had these misidentifications, and I
just tried to parse them. thanks for the corrections.
I know how it can be to toss old copies before newer
ones at people asking for 'em.

#># Basic Rules of Protocol
#>#
#># I. Orders: Each member in attendance at a grotto of the
#># Church shall render due respect and deference, in both
#># word and action, to his superiors in the Church, as
#># well as to members of higher orders than that to which
#># he belongs. He shall also demonstrate regard for all
#># members of the Church as befits their status as
#># servants of the Infernal Lord and subjects of the
#># Infernal Empire. It shall be incumbent upon members
#># attending rituals to wear the amulet of their
#># respective Order, unless a serious reason prevents them
#># from doing so.
#>
#> note the stipulation of "the Infernal Lord" and "subjects
#> of the Infernal Empire". this may be contradictory to
#> both notions of 'atheistic CoSatanists' as well as the
#> contentions by Tani&Co as "Dark Doctrines"-oriented.

# No, more like how about the idea of "you are your OWN god
# or goddess" being anathema to the very concept of EMPIRE?

depends. it might be an Empire of Gods.

#># V. General Attitude toward Regulations and Protocol: It
#># should be apparent that all regulations and forms of
#># protocol are designed to increase the dignity and
#># status of the Church, and are, therefore, to the
#># benefit of even the least important member. Satanists
#># are ready to pay deference to their superiors, and
#># expect, in consequence, respect from their inferiors.
#># This is the order of nature, and we as magicians must
#># regulate our lives in accordance with that order. If
#># you do not understand why an individual has been placed
#># in a certain position, it behooves you to have
#># confidence in the decisions and knowledge possessed by
#># those in authority who make such appointments, and to
#># act accordingly.
#>
#> failing to acknowledge any particular religious body as
#> authoritative, these stipulations would of necessity be
#> only pertinent to membership of the CoS. outside said
#> membership, the description of stratification seems to
#> be quite plain.

# They seemed to have major problems with this stratification
# when it took the forms of SEPARATED satanic orgs!

of course. that is natural for church politics. only groups
like the Kaos Kuvin' would welcome changing memberships,
splitting off or hiving (compare Wiccans and other Neopagans,
but splits of this kind are usually struggled against) at
each proper junction (in the KK it was every coalescence).

# ...DON'T in future get who is who mixed up....

now that you've helped me to correct the errors in clearly
identify it in preface as to the supposed author etc. I'm
sure I'll be able to refer to this older version I'd already
got at Lucky Mojo. maybe sometime I'll incorporate some part
of it into the Ninth Scholar's Satanism Archive (that isn't
entirely on-topic, mostly sociopolitical).

# ...imagine that this shit started with me at all.

HP Gilmore seems to have identified you with some influence,
as, according to Ole, did Tim (who maintained that you'd
made him change the 'survey' thing). whether it was Casey
or you, it sounds like someone did change it before it went
to 'press' as it were.

blessed beast!

boboroshi at-sign satanservice.org: Satanic Outreach Director
Church of Euthanasia: http://www.churchofeuthanasia.org/
TOKUS WEBLINKS: http://dmoz.org/Bookmarks/B/boboroshi/
Ninth Scholar's Library (Satanism Archive): http://www.satanservice.org/

[Tani Jantsang ©]

How about you review the actual material Tim Stewart had on his website at
the time Gilmore wrote him that email - above on here, and on your
alt.magick.tyagi are the preliminary files that Tim Stewart HAD on his
Project One (Fascism) website. He didn't have as many essays as we now have
on our site. He definitely had the ones that I posted for you to SEE.
Gilmore had to have seen those essays and dialogues from Tim's website.

Now - read those - and then tell me WHAT ON EARTH warranted Gilmore's crazy
email to him?

Post by nagasiva
50041214 viii om Hail Satan!
thanks for the additional help, Tani!
#> reviewing initial files in the
#> 2/27/2001 version of "The CoS Files"
#> -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=
Peter Gilmore Scaring Timothy Stewart
http://www.luckymojo.com/satanism/firstchurchofsatan/cosfiles/Peter_to_Stewart.html
"Last updated: January 20, 2001." I doubt it is too far
off, but I'm making some of the corrections you've helped
identify below, thanks, Tani. I tossed all the new ones
you recently sent me in abject despair. :>

The new ones I sent were what was on Tim's "fascist articles" website.
Despair all you want - but you READ that, it is also posted, and tell me
what might warrent a crazy email, no matter how well written, from Gilmore
that Tim got. They are posted on here, Tyagi. that IS what Tim had on his
site.

Post by nagasiva
#># Peter: [apparently conversing with Tani&Co] "...I was
#># told [by Tim?] that you present erroneous information
#># about the Church of Satan as if it were factual, and
#># that claim did require investigation. I found it to be
#># true...."
# Peter wrote that to TIM - and he was told it by other people
# that hated Tim's project on anti/fascism.
faceless, nameless people?

Ygraine Gidney, William Gidney, Jacqueline Davis, John Davis. Go read the
actual stuff Tim had on his site - I POSTED it since you don't like it also
emailed. Why would Peter write to tim after seeing these essays? Good
question.

Post by nagasiva
# For some very odd reason, Tim's objective project was
# muddled up with some notion that Tim was going against
# the COS....
more vague phrases. HP Gilmore is more precise.
#># Peter: [to Tani&Co, re Tim's/Stewart's "survey" file] ...
#
# No, Peter to TIM.
actually unclear, if he thought you wrote part of it or that

Oh Jesus freaking christ man - Peter didn't think I wrote ANY of it except
the articles TIM HAD UP ON HIS SITE that I DID write - I posted them. Catch
a fucking CLUE man. I just posted what tim had on his site - THAT PETER SAW
there.

Post by nagasiva
it was a Tani&Co construction (written by 'the Tani clique',
or as you prefer 'The Vad Clique' :>), but I'll take your
word for it, since the presentation implies it consistently.
#> something which Tani tends to inform others,
#> interestingly. I'm sure I've reviewed this material
#> in just this way before at some time in the past.
#
# Peter wrote that to TIM.
that doesn't have anything to do with my comment. ;>
I knew that he was overtly responding to a document that
sported Tim as author, (he's quoting it as 'Stewart',
else he'd put 'Tani' instead). Ole appears to have let
one 'Tani' squeak by by mistake when it was supposed
to be Tim -- see below; you claim this is an error
and I'm inclined to believe you about two of them, but
in the context of Tim's "lie", it is extremely amusing).

HERE is the original - UNEDITED Email. I have only PUT who said what to
whom in here. Note that this is a email convo between TWO people: Tim and
Gilmore. NOW I suggest you go read what I posted - the files TIM HAD on his
site that Peter read. And then tell me WHAT would warrent THIS email here,
unedited.

Post by nagasiva
# ...WHY would anyone object to such a venture?
they would object to that venture if it seemed like it was
fractious of the Church of Satan, already explained elsewhere.
HP Gilmore gave many good reasons and invited the treasonous
wayward to resign their posts. apparently you were later
terminated in your entitlement.

One had nothing to do with the other - YOU are confusing things.

Post by nagasiva
#>
#> apparently Tim either agreed initially to present himself
#> as author or was presented as such by Tani&Co.
#
# Jesus man. Tim had this idea to do this long before I
# ever heard of it. I finally got to hear he wanted
# essays about a few months later. Sure, I said, I could
# get people to write their thoughts on it.
so then Tim lied about you making you making him alter it?

Tim also apologized for that. I DID HELP HIM get essays for it. That's
about all I did. He started his requests for essays on Ventrue's board -
months before I even knew he was doing it. What he wrote, HE WROTE - and he
posted some of it on alt.s. I HELPED HIM GET ESSAYS. No one else would.
Point being, I got PRO fascist essays too. Tim did NOT WANT THOSE, Tyagi.
There are bonafide Nazi Satanist orgs out there - and I got essays from them
for the "OBJECTIVE" project he wanted.

Post by nagasiva
in the earlier version of this text appears something
between your contentions, and it seems that *someone*
did make adjustments to his text (I think this sounds

No adjustements. He wrote this other thing - it was literally unreadable -
and it really had nothing to do with anything - it was never included in the
project. He posted it tho.

Post by nagasiva
What happened after Tim Stewart got this email from Gilmore? Tim was on
voice chat and in the room and everyone involved witnessed his abject
terror of Gilmore. Jacqueline Davis also admits he was terrified - of
losing his stupid membership. He tried to cop out by telling Gilmore that
"Tani wrote his commentary." Noooo, Casey edited it to make it readable,
but the original was still intact and seen by all. Tim Stewart wrote it.
Every word of it. He then confessed to Gilmore that he forgot he wrote it
(!!) and continued to call this act of cowardice "a misconception." Of
course, everyone excited about his Project One and who submitted essays to
it turned ice cold toward Tim after that. The entire collection of essays
can now be seen on Satanic Reds www.geocities.com/satanicreds/ under the
title "Is Fascism Satanic." It is an excellent collection of informative
essays.
what did he say you made him do, exactly, when he had this

Get essays! Well, I DID get essays for him. What I simply did was say "hey,
Tim of the COS is collecting essays for a project about fascism in satanism.
Can you write an essay from your own point of view about this? When I asked
for essays - I GOT THEM. When HE asked for essays - well, he did not get
them - he got abused for the effort. But blaming me for getting him essays
he wanted to get? google then, HE POSTED some of this stuff on
alt.satanism. He asked Chris Turner for HIS essay (and never got it).

Post by nagasiva
Stewart immediately suffered selective amnesia,
claiming that Tani had made him alter his document.

Alter his document - the unreadable thing he wrote about the wolf was left
out - and it didn't even belong in there. What the hell did that have to do
with ANY of it? I GOT people to hand in essays for Tim. That is what I
did. He was NOT able to get anyone to hand in essays months prior - and he
kept trying. You know, Tyagi - you want to buy something in a store, but
the price is way too high - so you go and ASK TANI to get a sales person in
a store to lower the price on the item - and I DO that for you, buy the
item, and get paid back for it from you when I give the item to you. Then
BLAME Tani for making you pay for it (at the lower price) when you wanted to
buy it yourself to begin with? THAT is a very clear analogy, Tyagi.

But it begs the question. Given that I posted the essays TIM HAD (we have
more - so I just posted what HE had) - I have to wonder WHAT prompted
Gilmore to go berserk and write reams of whatever to him. Those are pretty
good essays. Ben Schultz essay is there too. So is Phil's. I posted it
ALL (that IS what I emailed you in case you didn't see the posts).

Post by nagasiva
given that this is in a section about HP Gilmore intimidating
membership, this is supposed to represent an example of him
doing so. because Tim agreed with HP Gilmore about your role
with respect to this at least Ole thought Tim changed sides
because he was afraid of Gilmore (you bring forward Jacqueline
Davis as a witness in the above, which is helpful), and his
losing his CoS membership. possibly there was a more
terrifying implication than can be imagined (hey, these
people are messin' with Kathulu Kreechurz :(EIIII ).

Tim was at the time, afraid he'd lose his membership due to what Gilmore
wrote. I have to say, I can't FATHOM what the hell gilmore is going on and
on about - given that he read those essays (GO READ THEM). Repeat, I posted
on this newsgroup the essays Tim had.

Post by nagasiva
#># Stewart: The statements made by Magistrate Nadramia
#># in her "speculation on similarities between Fascism and
#># Satanism" are noted and should be viewed for relevance.
#># http://www.apodion.com/vad/cos/s_n_Nazi.shtml (It is
#># also in "Is Fascism Satanic" on
#># www.geocities.com/satanicreds/
#>#
#># Peter: "This article is still relevant (and
#># was heartily endorsed by Anton LaVey - which doesn't
#># require that you do likewise), and it was interesting
#># to note how some of your respondents supplied their own
#># definitions for fascism - essentially putting a spin on
#># what Magistra Nadramia had said very clearly, then
#># argued against it. More 'straw man' tactics, which are
#># among the methodologies used by demagogues."
# ...Tim's respondents (Tim IS Stewart) wrote their
# own essays - period. ...
non-sequitur, the argument was against the rationality of
the presentations as regards fascism and the methods of
argument employed by the 'survey'-participants evaluated
as a response to Magistra Nadramia, now the HPs.

Why not read the actual DIALOGUE Tim had with me - which I posted. Some of
his early stuff was LIKE that - dialogue. I got him actual ESSAYS. I
posted the ones he had. WHY the reaction?

Post by nagasiva
#># later, at a time of greater desperation for the Nazi
#># State."
#>
#> this should stand as HP Gilmore's understanding of the
#> WWII Holocaust at the time of writing.
#>
#> now we enter some of the convolution. it appears that
#> LATER comments by Tani here are interrupting the
#> original commentary, *then* HP Gilmore's response to it,
#
# ...NOWHERE in that email is Peter responding to ME. Peter
# wrote that to TIM, in response to TIM's words. I saw it later - and put
# some of my own comments IN there. Isn't it clear on there who said what?
not on the version I examined, sorry. also not in the version
which I'd collected from Egan previously. you had to correct
my guesses in many instances. this is why I suggested that its
inclusion as footnotes to the Emperor essay might be much better
employment. as it stands it looks like your writing, especially
initially

Well, I admit, the cos files are a MESS. It's not clear who is saying what
to any outsider. I will POST the actual clean email, clearly showing who
said what, below.

Post by nagasiva
#># Tani1: But the "ideal of fascism" present today in
#># Satanism is founded upon the notion that certain
#># magical meanings exist behind ancient symbols, e.g.,
#># the Swastika.
# I did NOT write that . TIM DID.
Peter Gilmore Scaring Timothy Stewart
http://www.luckymojo.com/satanism/firstchurchofsatan/cosfiles/Peter_to_Stewart.html
there was originally also
Tani: But the "ideal of fascism" present today in Satanism
is founded upon the notion that certain magical meanings
exist behind ancient symbols, e.g., the Swastika.
Peter: [This statement is complete bunk. Which Satanists
said this and where?]
I added a note or two. thanks Tani. it wasn't making as much
sense the ways I'd received it so far from Egan and Ole. :>
#># Peter: ""This statement is complete bunk. Which
#># Satanists said this and where?""
#>#
#># Tani2: You said "in Satanism." You did not say in COS.
#># The statement is not bunk at all. MANY other Satanic
#># orgs, november9.org eg, claim it to be a magical
#># symbol. Especially, this is so of the Odinist types who
#># claim to be Satanists.
#
# I said that to TIM as a comment. I did not say that to Peter. Peter did
# not say a thing to ME in there.
now you've cleared that error up, thanks.
# I did NOT ammend or edit Tim's email at all.
I hear ya, and believe what you say, thanks.
it appears that Casey edited the thing.
a friend of yours, maybe?

NO ONE edited his email. Casey shortened the long, unreadable ramble he
wrote - that is all. But what he had is POSTED. Go read it.

Post by nagasiva
#> 'Social Realist 10-Point agenda
#> (also mimicking LaVey's "[5] Point Plan").
thanks. do you as well have 9 Satanic Statements
or egocentric extraspecial 11 Rules of Earth?

No. There is no mimicking. There are 10 commandments in the bible Tyagi.
Are our 10 SR political points mimicking that in your skewed opinion?

Post by nagasiva
# ...No mimicking involved....
really?
yowza, you mean because the numbers are different?

10 commandments? 10 SR political points? coincidence.

Post by nagasiva
# If someone comes up with a clarifying 11th point -
# it would go up there.
then it might become comparable to the Earth-Rule Dodecad.

You really know how to stretch things. 10 amendments - later amended to more
(Bill of Rights?)

Post by nagasiva
THIS appears to be a key point, for which no evidence
is provided, and Harry may chime here harmonically.
#>#> Stewart: Herd mentality is a sin in CoS doctrine and
#>#> it is noted: how else would the Nazis be able to
#>#> exterminate a race? On a personal level? Was this a way
#>#> for an ideal form of stratification?
#>#
#># Peter: "Did anyone say it was?"
#>
#> weakly separating the CoS from neo-naziism as have many
#> of their essays which were part of discussions within
#> their own publications (also in response to those
#> such as Jeffrey Deboo). later discernment is stronger.
#> [Tim] didn't save [key emails from people] in the upper
#> echelon of the church ACTUALLY saying those things to him.
# Some of those people were Mags in the cos - and their
# stuff IS in the TBF magazine.
issue numbers? page numbers? names? I might have 'em.
maybe some kind soul will quote them here. :>
I'm not sure what it will prove though. see elsewhere.
#># interpretations of issues of sociology, politics,
#># and biology. This "faction" clearly plays
#># "Inquisition" and labels those members of the Church
#># of Satan who disagree with them as "Klippoths"
#
# Sorry, that was Ole's "strict interpretation" of things ....
interesting, I think I recall you using such strength of
rejection and characterizing disagreement in similar
terminology. I'd be amused to see examples.
#># Peter: "Essentially this defines the tactics used by
#># the Tani clique (Agree with our way of 'correcting'
#># LaVey or be branded a 'Klippoth'),
# NO, that was absolutely NOT my way.... [It was Ole's.]
someone you used to run with did, eh? 'klippoth' rubbed
off a little on ya I know.
# ...I'm tired of taking the blame for the behavior of others....
good thing you're around to correct the errors then.
I'm including a note from you to this effect (that it was Ole's
usual behaviour to do this moreso than yours; perhaps this will
demonstrate my lack of bias against you :>).
# Go tell that to DeBoo - a loner and individual that merited the BIG
# "Sychophants Unite" article - just for him.
yes, you've said that. why doesn't it mention Deboo?

Tim never heard of DeBoo. I DID get an essay of DeBoo - but Tim did NOT
have that. I posted what Tim DID have.

Post by nagasiva
Sycophants
http://www.churchofsatan.com/Pages/Syco.html
and didn't find 'Deboo' anywhere, though his clash
with CoS wouldn't have surprised me. he wasn't a member
of the church was he? I didn't recall and the essay that

In the sychphants article they are making a reference to a magazine that
everyone knew referred to DeBoo's magazine. No Jeff was never a member of
the COS.

Post by nagasiva
THE SATANISM OF JDEBOO
http://www.luckymojo.com/avidyana/shaitan/jdeboo.txt
#># Stewart: The proponents of this Organizational Fascism
#># Peter: "Whom you have still failed to identify."
#># Tani: WE WILL identify them, hell, the book "Lucifer
#># Rising" identified them!
# Keep in mind, that is my COMMENTARY on the email Peter
# mailed to Tim.
it seems clear enough, yes. I have "Lucifer Rising".
so point them out to me. Boyd? some Black Metal d00dz?
#> the fact that Tani&Co had not identified them here and
#> relies upon Baddeley's book for data is quite amusing.
# Some of them are identified in those files. When Ole got
# THOROUGH info, he put it up there.
do you mean: Boyd Rice, Jeff Nagy, and Rex Church?

Michael Moynihan, Chris Turner and some others, don't remember.

Post by nagasiva
it is true that Boyd Rice is written up in books such as
in "Lucifer Rising" and that he is an advocate of fascism.
did the CoS kick him out, or something? were *they* ever
giving the impression that they were speaking for the CoS?
#># Peter: "Again, you've presented no evidence whatsoever
#># that there exists a faction of 'Nazi Revisionist
#># Satanists' in the Church of Satan, much less that such
#># a mythical faction has any power in the organization."
# LMAO - is that why they are all purged out or encouraged
# to leave after Jeff did what he did? LMAO. Who they are
# is evident from reading Black Flame magazine! They were
# open about it.
I saw some of that element in the few Black Flames that I
was given by the High Priestess. along with a similar gift
of the excellent book by Bardon, whose better I hope but do
not entirely rest assured I'll find in Aquino's book of
very similar name, they were so excellent I integrated
their covers into my collage poster work of that time period.
they're around somewhere, carcasses, so I can vouch for
a stream of symbolism, text. all this is now gone
from church publications, as far as you know?
#># 'pie-in-the-sky' form of idealism which I find
#># incompatible with the essential pragmatism of
#># Satanism). And to reiterate what I said above, if some
#># Satanists want to satisfy themselves with such dreams,
#># they may, so long as they don't identify them with the
#># aims of the Church of Satan, which are emphatically not
#># political, nor are they idealistic."
#>
#> something which the "Satanic Reds" (/"Social Realists")
#> have pinpointed as their line of departure. having
#> identified a subsector of the Satanist community with
#> which the Church of Satan can truly have no quarrel as
#> long as it isn't identified as *originating* from said
#> Church, they have paraded this under the flag of crypto-
#> Stalinism as an echo of the apparent heritage of Tani
#> (whose father was apparently an NKVD agent).
# Problem with that theory - as Brendan pointed out,
# SR existed in 1997 before I was online.
why is its supposed origin of 1997 pertinent?
something is being missed by someone. :>

Yeah, you are missing a lot of stuff, and I'm not fond of the idea of typing
and fetching more for you. I won't.

Post by nagasiva
#># 'Fascist faction infecting' our Church of Satan. You
#># assert this as fact without offering any concrete
#># evidence."
#
# Yes, he didn't SAVE the god damned evidence - which is one
# reason Ole started demanding FULL evidence, and not this
# kind of shit. The evidence would be in the Black Flame
# magazine itself.
depends on the significance of the phrase, and he may have
meant it less sharply than you've asserted it was. some
publication supported by a church doesn't mean that the
church agrees with everything that goes into it. SNUFF IT!
is exactly the same way, so are many other corporations'
communication forums. they do not have to be an accurate
reflection of the organization and contributors are said
to be responsible for their own viewpoints. those who do
not hold common values with the cult, such as wayward bigots
or supremacists or anti-whatevers, within an organization
or publication that tends to have members opposing such
politics, might express themselves for a bit within very
liberal communities before support rallies against them
in some manner and casts them out (this goes as much for
the ejection of the rationalist Satanists as extremists
like neo-nazis).
# ALSO When DeBoo wrote anti fascist tracts, he was not directing
# that toward fascism WITHIN the COS (which IS what inspired TIM
# to do this project...). ...DeBoo was talking about fascism
# within satanism PERIOD - not just the COS.
I can confirm that much, I interviewed him and analyzed his
text a half dozen years ago in the above, and while his
expression was often critical of organizations, he was
primarily focussed on Satanism as a whole, not just the
type which may have supported the publication in which
his text appeared (such as The Black Flame and others).

and that is what Tim's was - it was NOT COS specific or anything like that.
GO READ what is posted - what Tim HAD up there.

Post by nagasiva
#># Tani1: That is not what provoked you [apparently Tim]
#># to write this at all - and you should have TOLD them this.
#># But this IS what everyone else thought it was about!
#># ME TOO, as you can see from my first response. Phil too,
#># see by his response. Everyone thought that, just about.
# That is my note to TIM - not to Peter. I have notes IN
# this email from Peter to Tim.
another unclarity, thanks for straightening that one out.
#># Peter: "Such is the usual course of action for those who
#># can't bear to be without a 'goodguy badge.' And, as Dr.
#># LaVey pointed out, all wearers of goodguy badges need
#># an audience - hence the 'project' satisfies this dictum.
#>#
#># Tani2: Oh, I think the stuff YOU wrote is confrontational
#># as hell. Seeing this, I made mine more confrontational. :)
#># I spoke what I felt. Simple as that.
# I wrote that regarding TIM's stuff.
helpful correction, thanks.
#>
#># Stewart NO
# Your concluding paragraph above has
#># the tenor, if not the literary skills, of missives I
#># recall reading which date from 1975. They were written
#># by a self-righteous Michael Aquino who had convinced
#># himself that the Church of Satan had sold-out on its
#># principles. LaVey pointed out to him that he really
#># didn't understand those principles in the first place
#># and really didn't understand how the organization as a
#># whole was being run. I am now saying the same to you
#># and those who share your delusion. In some of the
#># forwarded email exchanges from the "Tani-clique"
#># preceding this "project," I noted a railing against
#># the concept of hierarchy in the Church of Satan -
#># redefining it into something non-natural and then
#># shooting it down (the same tactic as is used in this
#># "fascism project").
JESUZ TANI! corrected at all archived material!!
# You have the who said what to who pretty confused.
I do, right. maybe you have a newer version, but the
previous two both had these misidentifications, and I
just tried to parse them. thanks for the corrections.
I know how it can be to toss old copies before newer
ones at people asking for 'em.
#># Basic Rules of Protocol
#>#
#># I. Orders: Each member in attendance at a grotto of the
#># Church shall render due respect and deference, in both
#># word and action, to his superiors in the Church, as
#># well as to members of higher orders than that to which
#># he belongs. He shall also demonstrate regard for all
#># members of the Church as befits their status as
#># servants of the Infernal Lord and subjects of the
#># Infernal Empire. It shall be incumbent upon members
#># attending rituals to wear the amulet of their
#># respective Order, unless a serious reason prevents them
#># from doing so.
#>
#> note the stipulation of "the Infernal Lord" and "subjects
#> of the Infernal Empire". this may be contradictory to
#> both notions of 'atheistic CoSatanists' as well as the
#> contentions by Tani&Co as "Dark Doctrines"-oriented.
# No, more like how about the idea of "you are your OWN god
# or goddess" being anathema to the very concept of EMPIRE?
depends. it might be an Empire of Gods.

A hierarchy.

Post by nagasiva
#># V. General Attitude toward Regulations and Protocol: It
#># should be apparent that all regulations and forms of
#># protocol are designed to increase the dignity and
#># status of the Church, and are, therefore, to the
#># benefit of even the least important member. Satanists
#># are ready to pay deference to their superiors, and
#># expect, in consequence, respect from their inferiors.
#># This is the order of nature, and we as magicians must
#># regulate our lives in accordance with that order. If
#># you do not understand why an individual has been placed
#># in a certain position, it behooves you to have
#># confidence in the decisions and knowledge possessed by
#># those in authority who make such appointments, and to
#># act accordingly.
#>
#> failing to acknowledge any particular religious body as
#> authoritative, these stipulations would of necessity be
#> only pertinent to membership of the CoS. outside said
#> membership, the description of stratification seems to
#> be quite plain.
# They seemed to have major problems with this stratification
# when it took the forms of SEPARATED satanic orgs!
of course. that is natural for church politics. only groups
like the Kaos Kuvin' would welcome changing memberships,
splitting off or hiving (compare Wiccans and other Neopagans,
but splits of this kind are usually struggled against) at
each proper junction (in the KK it was every coalescence).
# ...DON'T in future get who is who mixed up....
now that you've helped me to correct the errors in clearly
identify it in preface as to the supposed author etc. I'm
sure I'll be able to refer to this older version I'd already
got at Lucky Mojo. maybe sometime I'll incorporate some part
of it into the Ninth Scholar's Satanism Archive (that isn't
entirely on-topic, mostly sociopolitical).
# ...imagine that this shit started with me at all.
HP Gilmore seems to have identified you with some influence,
as, according to Ole, did Tim (who maintained that you'd
made him change the 'survey' thing). whether it was Casey
or you, it sounds like someone did change it before it went
to 'press' as it were.

Yah, he didn't want to include ANY of the pro fascist essays that HE DID
get. yet he told me he wanted it to be objective, on both sides. Well, I
DID include them. Hey,s omeone might want to JOIN a fascist satanic org -
WHY NOT include it? I did. Tim did object to that! He wanted ANTI fascist
essays only (yet he lied and said it was objective).

HERE is the unedited email between TWO PEOPLE, Tim and Peter:

Peter Gilmore Scaring Timothy Stewart



Note: this is a copy of an email given to various people by Stewart (Tim
Stewart Epperhart)). It is now unaltered, what was in the email Tim gave
people to see, is here with NO OTHER comments on it. Tim did not know how to
obtain "full headers" or anything like that. Please NOTE that the "new
website" referred to in here by Gilmore was one that was put up FOR STEWART
by someone else that is not involved in any of this. He may have paid for
the work.

It is perculiar that they'd butt into what Stewart wanted to do - which was
very similar to what Jeff DeBoo had been doing longer than Stewart (who
never heard of Deboo!). Gilmore was asked to view this by the Gidney couple
or by Ygraine Gidney alone. In fact, the actual UNEDITED articles Stewart
had for his Project One were posted on alt.satanism BEFORE anyone connected
to Tani saw them. They were POSTS!

Next thing, Stewart came into #satanmuse where Tani and many others were
having fun and he asked them for essays for his project. He also told
everyone what happened when he asked for the same essays from certain other
people in the clique that contained the Gidneys, the Davises, Ventrue, "Dr.
Mengele" (his nick), the Nagy couple and a few others.

It is assumed that COS members can do projects if they feel like it -
Stewarts project was like Jeff DeBoo's stuff, only Stewret never heard of
DeBoo. The Project was on "Is Fascism Satanic." What is wrong with
collecting essays on this subvject? Why in the world would the Gidneys ask
Gilmore to look at what Stewart wrote - and why would Gilmore chastise
Stewart about it? Why would he put the blame on any of it on Tani when
Stewart ON HIS OWN posted about this project before Tani helped him get
essays from various people. That is ALL that Tani did, in fact. HELPED HIM
GET ESSAYS.

On Mon, 28 Aug 2000 08:26:36 GMT "Tim Epperhart"
<&***@hotmail.com> writes:

Peter: Dear Mr. Stewart (Epperhart): I recently was asked by some members to
view your new website, specifically the section dealing with your project
regarding "fascism."

Peter: Since we (the administration of the Church of Satan and Anton LaVey
himself) have long considered this to be a dead issue (we had articles in
"The Black Flame" which dealt with this over a course of several years), I
wasn't inclined to spend the time. However, I was told that you present
erroneous information about the Church of Satan as if it were factual, and
that claim did require investigation. I found it to be true. I note that
your project essentially consisted of sending out an email letter and then
gathering and posting responses. I counted the responses, and they were
written by less than twenty individuals. Since the Church of Satan consists
of many thousands of members, very few of whom are online, if this was
intended to be a comprehensive "survey," it certainly fails. In actuality it
is only a reflection of the opinions of online individuals who are in direct
contact with you and who chose to respond.

Peter: By any statistical standards, this makes your project meaningless, if
it is meant to convey information regarding the Church of Satan.

Peter: You are not an administrator of the Church of Satan, nor are any of
the people who responded to you (a number of whom aren't even members of the
Church of Satan). So, you personally should have borne such facts in mind
when making the broad generalizations in your own introduction and
conclusion to the emails which you received in response to your letter. But
it is clear that you did not. You assume that you have some knowledge about
the Church of Satan at large, its membership and its practices, and this is
completely erroneous.

Peter: My general impressions concerning these emails (save for the very
sensible response by "Wooki") is that a straw man is being established (the
concept that there is some kind of "fascist faction" which has a hand in
controlling the Church of Satan) and then knocked down.

Peter: If indeed there is a "fascist faction," neither you nor any of your
respondents spent any time in listing the members of this group by name or
listing their numbers, nor is any time spent in quoting any of their works
which would prove their agenda - which you state to be the intention to
force other Church of Satan members to "agree with them or leave the Church
of Satan."

Peter: If you cannot prove that a substantial percentage of the membership
of the Church of Satan has preached a specific political agenda (namely
"fascism") and then demanded that all of the other members must agree with
this or leave, then this project has no validity.

Peter: It is simply what it is: a handful of people shooting the breeze
about a topic. It is a collection of opinions, and we all know that it is
said that "opinions are indeed like assholes - everyone has one...etcetera."

Peter: Let me examine the introduction and conclusion which you wrote to
bracket the solicited emails. I have quoted this text directly from your
site, and my questions and comments are interpolated and will be enclosed in
brackets. My questions are rhetorical and what I state is not intended to
fuel debate. My purpose is to make an offer to you and those who think as
you do, and you will come across it in due course.

---------------------------------------------------

PROJECT 1

Stewart: By: Timothy Stewart Epperhart - "Wolf At Hart" The successes of
fascism easily make people lose all perspective and result in their
forgetting, or being ignorant of the actual conditions which made the
strengthening and the victory of fascism possible.

Note brackets, this is Peter's text.

Peter: [This is what is called a "sweeping generalization," as any high
school writing teacher would point out. Detailed evidence is required to
support such a claim, and unfortunately none is supplied by you or your
respondents in all that is to follow. What are the "successes" and "victory"
of fascism, particularly when we all know that fascist states have, for the
most part, fallen? ]

Stewart: Introduction: First of all, I'm going to allow the readers of this
document to understand that this project came about from a simple letter and
correspondence over E-mail; Initially my intentions were set on making an in
depth article with the help of some acquaintances, and in some cases
non-acquaintances if that was their choice: And yes, there was choice. Speak
up and be heard: or shut up!

Peter: [This reveals your agenda: you DEMAND participation in your project -
that people MUST come argue in your "sandbox," and then you dismiss any who
don't think it worthy of participation and tell them to be silent. Sounds
rather "fascistic" to me. It could be that many people wouldn't think you
have the credentials to be capable of handling such a project with the
requisite objectivity, let alone the literary and editorial skills needed,
and opted out for that reason.]

Stewart: Here is the Original Letter: I am going to analyze the "ideal of
Fascism" that we see within the Satanic movement at the present time. I
asked for both sides and hoped for an historically objective account.

Peter: [You asked whom for both sides? Did you contact any members of the
Church of Satan who have claimed to be attempting to make this organization
a fascist organization?.....

Stewart, I believe you perhaps should have come forward with the information
you got from your contact on satannet - the one who KNOWS who they are and
who told you some of their names, or just provided them yourself with logs
to prove it or whatever else you have. You sure the hell came forth STRONGLY
with this - and at that time I thought you were one of them lol!! SOMETHING
must have made you write it - and whoever imagines I had A THING to do with
it, better screw their heads on tighter. I didn't even know about it. Hell,
Valinda knew about it 1 month before I did. MANY did. That would have been
interesting if you provided proof. My whole angle on this shit is that there
is nothing political going on because these people are political idiots. My
whole contention is (and I know this) that their fetish is SEXUAL. That
their desire is based on emotional rage as an impetus. They aren't Nazis or
fascists. They are idiots.

Peter: .....Essentially, I doubt that you could have, as there aren't any
members who are attempting to do this.....

Peter: .....The Church of Satan has always been politically pragmatic - I've
said it, LaVey has said it. The Church of Satan does not dictate the
politics of its members, and they are (and have always been) free to choose
whatever suits their personal needs. For the record, those outside the
Church of Satan have, from its inception, accused it of all manner of
politics: communism, fascism, anarchism, liberalism, conservatism - and just
about anything else you can think of, all of which are mutually exclusive.
What IS clear, is that journalists who have an "axe to grind" against the
Church of Satan have always accused it of advocating a political system
which is one they personally abhor - thus the Church of Satan plays the role
of "devil" to them in whatever arena of human thought they wish to explore.]

Stewart: The statements made by Magistrate Nadramia in her "speculation on
similarities between Fascism and Satanism" are noted and should be viewed
for relevance. The URL for that article is or was:
http://www.apodion.com/vad/cos/s_n_Nazi.shtml (It is also in "Is Fascism
Satanic" on www.geocities.com/satanicreds/

Peter: [This article is still relevant (and was heartily endorsed by Anton
LaVey - which doesn't require that you do likewise), and it was interesting
to note how some of your respondents supplied their own definitions for
fascism - essentially putting a spin on what Magistra Nadramia had said very
clearly, then argued against it. More "straw man" tactics, which are among
the methodologies used by demagogues.]

Peter: [Some of your respondents did attempt to clarify your error of
conflating these terms. That you said this is an example, however, of a very
real "herd" definition of these terms. In the 1960's the radical left
preached a philosophy of "peace and love" which really boiled down to the
concept of leveling everything to being "equal." This "philosophy"
championed the abandoning of any rational criteria for evaluation of
anything, and the embracing of everything as being of equal value, which
thus fostered mediocritization of every level of human cultural endeavor. We
are still living in the fallout of this mode of thinking, as the then young
people who espoused these ideas have grown to adulthood and are now the
"establishment" (those adults whom they considered to be the enemy during
the sixties). This "egalitarianism" (for that is what they called it) was
manifested in the cultural arena with concepts such as: "Anything can be
defined as being art and all such works must be considered to have equal
validity."....

Peter: .....Thus, some random splashes on a canvas were considered an equal
achievement to the Sistine Chapel, a mud hut was held up as being equivalent
to Versailles, and so on. This principle of "indiscrimination" lead to all
other fields of achievement. A janitor was considered the equivalent to a
physicist, a novelist was now the peer of one who scrawled graffiti on a
bathroom wall and so on. Those who opposed this leveling were accused of
being "fascists" or "Nazis," without regard for what these terms might have
meant in their actual historical origins and practice. After all, it was the
mid-sixties, twenty years after the ending of a war that none of these folks
were even alive to have experienced. How quickly past orthodoxies are
forgotten. The Church of Satan was created in the mid-sixties and stood in
contradistinction to these ideas, which were generally defined as being
"liberal." .....

Peter: .....From the time of the very foundation of the organization, Anton
LaVey and the members of the Church of Satan were appalled at this societal
trend, which favored the elimination of concrete criteria for the evaluation
of just about anything and instead advocated that any kind of merit was
illusory - and thus that the act of evaluation was an "evil" practice.
"Discrimination" became a "bad word," when previously it had meant "sound
judgment." Well, the Church of Satan never shied away from embracing things
which society considered "evil," and thus it championed a rebirth of strict
criteria for evaluation of all areas of human endeavor, and quite radically
placed the responsibility for this squarely on the shoulders of each
individual. Thus, there was no "appeal to authority" for Satanists - each
person held the responsibility for being their own authority. For this
reason, we were called "fascists" and "Nazis" - NOT because of any
advocation of the sociopolitical ends of these historical movements......

Peter: .....Satanists today do not shy away from being called these names
for this very same reason. We champion merit and superior achievement in all
areas, and are the enemy of enshrined mediocrity. We abhor what we see as a
society that is a rampant "mediocracy." The masses (in the sixties as well
as of today) don't know what the terms "Nazi" and "fascist" really mean in a
historical sense. These are used as epithets against anyone with whom they
don't agree. Most frequently they are employed by "politically correct"
intellectuals who use "Nazi" and "fascist" in the same manner that Joe
McCarthy used the word "communist" and the Christian Inquisitors used the
word "witch" - to discredit the validity of the accused's point of view and
brand them a "heretic/thought criminal." Because of the continuing decline
in the level of education, even amongst those who pursue degrees at major
universities, we can expect that there will be no real broad understanding
of what the terms "Nazi" and "fascist" really mean. These will simply remain
derogatory epithets used against those perceived to be "the bad guys.".....

Peter: .....Satanists are aware of what impact words and images have on the
herd, and thus use them to their advantage. It should be clear to anyone who
has observed human society that there is an all-pervading interest on the
part of the contemporary general public with the Third Reich. This
commentary to you would grow to gigantic proportions should I take the time
to examine the reasons for this (most of which should be obvious). Anyone
with cable television or who happens to visit movie theatres will see that
the Nazis are now the standard archetype in entertainment for what the
masses deem to be "Evil" - and they are fascinated with this and fetishize
it to no end. Do you watch "The History Channel" (whose emblem is a carved,
angular letter "H")? We jokingly say that this really stands for "Hitler"
not "History" as over 50% of their programming is Third Reich related. Yes,
it's a HERD thing.

It should come as no surprise to any Satanist, that certain savvy Satanists
who make their living entertaining the masses (like Boyd Rice or Brian
Warner) use the public's obsession with this material for their own
ends......

Peter: .....Hence both have used symbols and techniques derived from Third
Reich spectacles (which were undeniably powerful means for motivating masses
of people) for the purpose of stimulating their audiences and thus putting
money in their pockets. Is this advocating political fascism? No.]

Stewart: ..initially had specific criteria which are notable. The Nazis are
well known for their treatment of the Jews in their area, which they
exterminated for being "a weaker race." Scientists do acknowledge a
similarity in "Jewish People" or Semites, via gene analysis, but such
analysis didn't exist during those times; needless to say, the Nazis viewed
the Jews not as a religion, but as a race. The best solution the Nazis came
up with for so-called stratification, was to adopt the most potent political
system at their disposal: Fascism. This was Nazism.

Peter: [In point of fact, "stratification" was not the goal of the German
fascists. They sought political power and needed a scapegoat for the
economic woes of many people.....

Peter: .....They chose the Jews, since many were economically successful,
and galvanized much of the populace into following them through this hatred.
They also targeted communists, whom they felt were enemies to their system
of National Socialism. Once the Nazis took power, their first order of
business was to imprison political enemies, many of whom were communists.
These were the people incarcerated in concentration camps, long before any
program was established to put Jews in these camps simply because of their
being Jewish. In fact, the German government worked with Zionist movements
to export Jews to the area now known as Israel, even helping these people to
evade British blockades in their quest to emigrate to their ancestral
"homeland." The Holocaust happened later, at a time of greater desperation
for the Nazi State.]

Peter: [This statement is complete bunk. Which Satanists said this and
where?]

Stewart: Also influencing them is that the Swastika is looked upon as being
"Evil" like the Sigil of Baphomet. The Swastika was considered a very
atrocious thing. What the Swastika actually meant in the past has no bearing
on any of this, regardless of Herd Misconceptions.

Peter: [The herd¹s misconceptions have EVERYTHING to do with how a Satanist
uses symbols to influence the herd. That should be obvious. The folks who
run around today and try to reclaim the swastika as a "good" symbol have
totally failed to supplant the herd's identification of this as a sign of
"ultimate Evil," far more potent to them than the Sigil of Baphomet.
Satanists take note of this fact. When dealing with mass consciousness,
original meanings are not of any importance, but the current meanings are
all important - which was the import of my discussion of the terms "Nazi"
and "fascist" above.]

Stewart: "Amidst the Hitlerian concept of strength through joy!" -ASL, The
Satanic Bible. Indeed, Hitler was no fool when he offered the people freedom
on a personal level, but the way that it was done was wrong and is opposed
to Church of Satan doctrine.

Peter: [Here is the crux of what is a major misprision that exists in almost
all of the people who responded to your project. It is that they identify
with the herd, and not the rulers of these projected "idealistic" fascist
societies.]

Peter: [Fascism in actuality is a doctrine that requires the submission of
individuals to the goals of the state. It is a collectivist philosophy,
suppressing individualism, which states that each person should sacrifice
himself to an abstract principle, which is treated as a mythologically
sacred entity - THE STATE.

Peter: The past supposed "glories" of the state become the sacred icons in
what is in actuality a new religion. Fascism is clearly a means for
controlling herds (and one that was effective). When this doctrine is placed
into practice, there has to be somebody who tells the herd what the needs of
THE STATE are to be, since THE STATE is just an abstraction - it does not
exist. Here enters the "Ruling Class" - otherwise known as the Nazi Party,
The Communist Party, the Khmer Rouge, and so on. These rulers claim to
embody THE STATE, and tell the masses what is the will of THE STATE, and
they reign much like the ancient priesthoods, who held their power by being
the only ones capable of communicating to people the "will of the Gods."
These people are a de facto "aristocracy," which uses THE STATE for its
raison d'etre, just as the latter day heads of some of the communist states
handed down THE WILL OF THE PEOPLE as their excuse for controlling their
massed subjects. These rulers are not subject to sacrificing themselves to
THE STATE, because they are the ones who, as embodiments of THE STATE,
choose who is to be sacrificed (and they don't pick themselves - though
sometimes they do pick their cohorts who are getting a bit too cocky). These
kinds of rulers now use terms more palatable to our century, whose masses
won't buy such old excuses as "the divine right of kings," but their means
are identical. Of course, these rulers are often foiled by subsequent
"prophets," who convince the masses that they, rather than the current
rulers, embody THE STATE, and so counter-revolutions occur and the former
leaders are usually dispatched with violence.

Peter: "Don't pay any attention to the man behind the curtain!" said the
glowering face in a fountain of fire (THE STATE/THE WILL OF THE PEOPLE),
hoping that Dorothy and crew wouldn't notice who really is pulling the
strings. But Toto (the beast) pulled aside the curtain. Now we might begin
to see how Satanists factor in to this equation. The Satanist should always
be aware of who is really running the situation in which he finds himself.
Satanists do not see themselves as being part of the herd and naturally
resist any attempts to be forced to live under any regimes that would make
them part of the controlled herd. However, Satanists really don't care how
the herd is being controlled, so long as they themselves aren't subject to
being controlled along with them. If forced by circumstance to be part of
such a governmental situation (and I caution the reader to examine how much
he really knows about the machinations of his current nation of residence),
the clever Satanist would either be the person who pulls the strings, or,
more likely, his associate. Being the one behind a "leader" is generally a
safer position, as the leader is always a target, while the advisors often
survive changes in "top dogs."

Peter: Some Satanists who are "political idealists" might envision a future
wherein Satanists are the "man behind the curtain" directing the herd to
support their own personal indulgences - the herd sacrificing themselves to
a ruling, but necessarily hidden, Satanic "elite." Frankly, I see this as a
political pipedream. Running a state would leave little time for personal
indulgences and enjoying one's life. In contemporary Western society, the
only political factions likely to attempt create a fascistic system (as
meant by the original meanings of the terms) are the right-wing Christians
(and the film, "The Handmaid's Tale" provides a chilling visualization of
this possibility). I think it far more productive to advocate a system which
guarantees freedom for the exercise of many points of view (so long as it
doesn't require me to pay for wastrels who want a free ride).

Peter: But we in the administration of the Church of Satan do not control
the thoughts of our members, so if some of them want to toy with these
"political dreams," that is their business. As long as they don't drag our
Church into any political agendas, their personal pursuits remain just that:
personal.]

Stewart: Herd mentality is a sin in CoS doctrine and it is noted: how else
would the Nazis be able to exterminate a race? On a personal level? Was this
a way for an ideal form of stratification?

Peter: [Did anyone say it was?]

Stewart: Is murder stratification, and would these actions be "justified"
because they were founded upon a Fascistic point of view?

Peter: [That humans kill one another is a part of the way our species
functions. When nations come into conflict with each other, and this
escalates beyond economic exchanges, what in peacetime would be termed
"murder" then becomes justified in the hands of the military. How the
conflicts finally pan out is one of the means for large-scale stratification
in our species.]

Stewart: E-Mail Observations and information to ***@hotmail.com
I look forward to writing this article, in any case. Thank you for
participation. Hail Satan! Hail the Church of Satan! Timothy Stewart

Stewart: Stewart's commentary: Now we come to the end where it is necessary
to evaluate these responses and fill in the blanks.

Stewart: I am sure some of the points raised will hit home with many
readers, both those who are members of the CoS and those who are not. Some
of what you've read you probably already understood since history is rife
with examples of the affects of Fascism and it is fairly easy to see, in
those examples, just what kind of people Fascism appeals to.

Peter: [Since multi-level definitions of "fascism" were not explored in this
project (you and your respondents missed its "common-parlance" usage and
chose to concentrate only on some of its historical definitions), the
analyses in the postings on your site concerning what form of
attractions/repulsions it may have for certain types of individuals do not
even begin to qualify as being exhaustive or even relevant.]

Stewart: Regardless of the differences between the "moral foundations" of
those Fascists in the past and the present Fascist infection, as I see it,
they share the same intentions.

Peter: [It is curious that you use the word "infection" here, yet no effort
has been made on your site to demonstrate just what is being infected, by
whom, and to what extent.

Peter: So, using this term is an attempt at pushing emotional buttons
without justification - not rational argument.]

Stewart: That is, to form an "All is One" union or dictatorship at the
highest levels in the organization that would trickle down, via
brainwashing, and a "toe the line or get out" party line to the
rank-and-file.

Peter: [The Church of Satan has never required anything of its members
except that they hold the writings of Anton LaVey as their basis for
membership in this organization. Members are free to build their own
personal viewpoints on this foundation. If people have substantial
disagreements with LaVey's work, or wish to promote something else as the
basis for Satanism, like the "dark doctrines,".....

Peter: .....then they should not be members and should tender their
resignations immediately.

Peter: There is no "brainwashing" in this organization - we don't have the
time for such labor intensive activities, which would garner minimal
results, and which are counter to our basic principles.

Peter: As from the beginning, we are a cabal of very independent individuals
who share a philosophy synthesized by Anton LaVey as our point of
commonality. And we will not try to force our members into some kind of
lock-step unity in their personal choices for building upon LaVey's
foundation. However, one thing I see in common amongst many of the
responders to your letter, is that they usually do identify themselves as a
self-proclaimed "faction" who center themselves on the ideas of Tani
Jantsang, not those of Anton LaVey.

Peter: Even if this is not admitted, any casual observer of the writings of
these people makes this very clear.

Peter: And, from their recent activities in chat rooms and on Usenet, it is
abundantly apparent that this clique is set on making the Church of Satan a
"one true way" organization based on their interpretations of issues of
sociology, politics, and biology.

Peter: This "faction" clearly plays "Inquisition" and labels those members
of the Church of Satan who disagree with them as "Klippoths".....

Peter: .....(remember, Joe McCarthy and the Inquisitors as mentioned
above?), and is now working to make their opinions the basis for the Church
of Satan. I represent the administration of the Church of Satan and state
that we will not tolerate this attempt at turning our organization into a
totalitarian organization whose sole aim is the promotion of the agendas of
this small group of individuals. These people followed their own paths in
the past, and didn't require that others kowtow to them.

Peter: However, particularly since these folk are active "online," lately
their ideas seem less and less based on the work of LaVey, and consequently
more and more demanding that all other members of the Church of Satan whom
they encounter must agree with them.

Peter: If they find individual members who disagree,.....

Peter: .....they have stated that they will attempt to drive them out. This
is not acceptable, as it is not the business of this clique to determine who
is or who is not a member of the Church of Satan. They are not
administrators of this organization, and they are not arbiters of
membership.

Peter: As Dr. LaVey has said, when ice melts, it is called water. So, if
this clique has decided that they have a new foundation for their concepts
of Satanism (and Tani herself has said there is little of Satanism, by her
definition, in the Church of Satan).....

Peter: .....then they are all invited to leave immediately and found their
own unique organization.]

Stewart: The reader who is paying attention will note the similarity in this
(fascist) doctrine and outlook to the early Christian doctrine of "Convert
or Die."

Peter: [Essentially this defines the tactics used by the Tani clique (Agree
with our way of "correcting" LaVey or be branded a "Klippoth"),.....

Peter: .....NOT the Church of Satan's administration, which accepts a rather
diverse set of means derived from LaVey¹s writings.]

Stewart: The proponents of this Organizational Fascism

Peter: [Whom you have still failed to identify.]

Stewart: cannot practice that doctrine in full in the real world because
those in the past that objected to this tyranny bought our freedom from that
fate with their blood.

Peter: [This reads like a threat to the straw man of "proponents of
Organizational Fascism," that those who disagree with them will do so "with
their blood." That is typical rhetorical nonsense, not rational debate - a
tactic used so effectively by Dr. Goebbels, I might add.]

Stewart: Were it still a valid option, however, the vehemence of the Satanic
Fascist faction

Peter: [Some evidence of this "vehemence," please.]

Stewart: makes it fairly plain that it would be a method joyously utilized
by them to silence the opposition! "You better shut up!" "You better drop
this project." "You can leave if you don't like it."

Peter: [Has any member of the administration of the Church of Satan told any
of the people who've responded to this project to "shut up"?.....

Peter: .....Has any member of the administration told you to "drop this
project"?.....

Peter: .....(Whether any of us thinks that it is a project that has been
executed with any skill is another matter, but we generally don't offer our
opinions unless asked, as per one of our "Rules of the Earth.") And
concerning the corporate entity, which is the Church of Satan, it IS
thoroughly within our rights as administrators of the corporation to tell
any members that, if they disagree with how we are running the organization,
then they SHOULD "leave if they don't like it." We are also empowered to
terminate their titles and membership at will. Membership in the Church of
Satan does not grant you rights of usage of property which belongs to the
corporation, nor does it give you anything beyond what the administration of
the corporation chooses to give to you.]

Stewart: This doctrinal similarity with the avowed enemies of the Satanic
movement in the past, is a large contributing factor to the feeling, on my
part and on the part of many, that these so-called Nazi Revisionist
Satanists have worn out their welcome. Some still pose the question of
whether there is, indeed, a Fascist faction in the CoS.

Peter: [Again, you've presented no evidence whatsoever that there exists a
faction of "Nazi Revisionist Satanists" in the Church of Satan, much less
that such a mythical faction has any power in the organization.]

Stewart: What of stratification? Would that not be a definition of what is
going on within the organization?

Peter: [Stratification is a term coined by Anton LaVey to signify how nature
allows everything to "seek its own level." It is not something to be
advocated - it happens of its own accord. In human social situations there
are many strata - though here in the West for years this was (mistakenly)
thought to be invalid because "democracy" supposedly dissolved the old
formal class structures. In reality, classes founded on economic status were
the new "strata," though some mobility is offered when individuals who were
entrepreneurs garnered enough wealth to move out of their original stratum.
In the past, there were still issues for these "upwardly mobile" individuals
concerning their social status since families coming from "old money" were
associated with "cultured aristocracy" while their "new money" was pegged as
being part of "crass materialism" (and there was some evidence to support
these stereotypes). And stratification is always happening in the
organization, as such cannot be avoided.]

Stewart: It is an interesting question. I would ask the reader to keep the
following point in mind as he/she ponders the question of stratification:
the goal of Fascism is "sameness." In no way does "sameness" equate with
stratification.

Peter: [The goal of fascism is to weld a group of people together towards a
common goal - support of a state - which itself is an illusion created by
the rulers of that state. The "sameness" is the common purpose, and such has
always been the means for totalitarians whether they are called fascists, or
clergy, or commissars. This has nothing ostensibly to do with
stratification, which ideally is the recognition of natural differences
depending upon merit, but can be seen practically in how well the clever
"know the ropes" of the system in which they live. People rise and fall, or
remain static in their society. Like seeks like. As Satanists, we embrace
the principle that there are those who naturally are leaders, and those who
are followers. There are masters and there are slaves, and quite a few
shades in between. It is a delusion amongst many who embrace Satanism that
by adopting this philosophy, they are immediately "masters," and are thus
now equal to all of the other "masters." This is an error. Satanists know
that those who embrace Satanism treat themselves as their own Gods - making
the satisfaction of their individual selves the standard of value for their
lives. However, only the naïve would think that amongst these
self-acknowledged Satanists that everyone is automatically in some kind of
"equivalent brotherhood" now that they are calling themselves "Satanists."
Nothing could be further from reality. Embracing Satanism does not
automatically give you advanced creative skills, a lifetime of hard-won
experience, or wisdom garnered from studying the wealth of information now
at our fingertips. You may be "your own god" but you don't have instant
"godhood" in the realm of human endeavor - that is something only gained
through the refined cultivation of whatever talents are yours by nature.
Satanism can be a great "launching pad" for those who are realists, to see
where they stand in their level of personal achievement, and to rationally
decide how to advance themselves in whatever manner they choose (or not to
advance themselves, but to enjoy whatever level they wish to have). Amongst
Satanists, there are some who embrace the principles of this philosophy and
do not feel that they have the capabilities to make their own horizons, as
Nietzsche defined a characteristic of his superior humans. These honest
individuals, under Satanism, have the choice to personally (and wisely)
select their master, and thus to guarantee that they will get the guidance
they desire which will be beneficial to themselves (unlike unwilling slaves,
they are also free to switch masters should they so choose). Few are honest
enough about themselves to make such a decision. We are thus confronted with
a spectacle of "Satanists" who are all failing the "leaky inner tube test."
They puff themselves up with claims of godhood, when they are, by any
objective standards, really just a bunch of low-grade buffoons who can't
produce anything on a level that could be deemed professional (as low as
many standards for professionalism are these days). Would that they could
honestly look into the mirror and see themselves for who they really are,
and that those who aren't "leaders and innovators" should stop being
pretenders to those thrones. They'd be happier and the fringes of Satanism
would look less ridiculous. However, we do understand the "nature of the
human beast" and thus will do our best to usher these pretentious fools out
of the door of the Church of Satan.]

Stewart: The members of this Fascist faction would have us believe that by
belonging to their faction they are demonstrating some kind of "personal
power." In their eyes, the identification with a political doctrine and
people that sought the elimination of a supposedly "weaker race" invests
them with some feeling of superiority, and they take this to be Satanic.

Peter: [You have offered no evidence for such a faction in the Church of
Satan using this methodology. This is, however, an accurate description of
many white supremacists, and those folk are currently in short supply
amongst our membership. I suggest that this must have something to do with
Anton LaVey's personal Jewish roots, as well as the fact that we don't
embrace racism since it is collectivist thinking and thus not compatible
with the individualist basis for the philosophy of the Church of Satan.]

Stewart: Self-delusion is never a Satanic value,

Peter: [You got that one right!]

Stewart: and self-deluded they are.

Peter: [I'd venture to call this "projection."]

Stewart: Those who posses the "personal power" these would-be Fascists lust
after, feel no need to adopt postures designed to showcase said power; only
the posers feel the need to pose. This is easily proven by a simple survey
of those who practiced political Fascism in the past; it has never been a
political movement of the strong.

Peter: [Real Satanists have confidence and "personal power" as they
determine the course of their lives, to whatever extent is possible in the
society in which they live. There are times when masochists are attracted to
Satanists, and these folk antagonize the Satanist in an attempt to goad them
into exercising their real power (not a postured power). The Satanist, as
LaVey explained, is an Epicurean Sadist, and when such masochists
come-a-calling, the Satanist often says "No" to the symbolic requests for a
"beating," thus turning the masochist's sought after eustress into distress.
But the Satanist's option to say "yes" also exists, and he can then provide
the masochist with the "beating" being requested, only if it gives the
Satanist satisfaction. That some Satanists use fascist-related imagery to
manipulate the herd has nothing to do with their own sense of efficacy. They
don't need it to be bolstered via symbols of any sort. It is simply a matter
of pushing buttons in the mass (or individual) consciousness for their own
ends - as was described above concerning Boyd Rice and Brian Warner. We all
know from history that the real fascist movements fell from power. BUT, only
a fool would ignore the continued power of their iconography over the
popular consciousness. Hence, you don't see any Satanists advocating
neo-fascist political movements - which are currently the purview of those
who feel they have no power over their lives and are looking for scapegoats
to blame for this powerlessness. The neo-Nazis are generally powerless white
folk, who want to try to do what Hitler did in the past. They are clinging
to a sunken ship. Real fascists today use Jesus and Christian moral
righteousness to make their way to power, blaming those who oppose their
morality for the distress their members feel. Their scapegoats are chosen
using their own morality and faith as the criteria. Satanists, for the most
part, clearly oppose Christian concepts of morality and would also oppose
the success of such movements (unless, perhaps, they have the concession for
selling Christian tchotchkes!).]

Stewart: An interesting aside is that these people are idolizing a system of
thought and practice that would see them as its first victims. No genuine
political Fascist would "suffer a Satanist to live."

Peter: [This is correct, in as much as I've said above, that the only forces
poised to effectively create a fascist state in the current Western world
are those motivated by the right-wing Christian coalition. They'd love a
theocracy, but not one dominated by the Vatican as was the last such
political state. As said above, some "politically idealist" Satanists might
advocate a very different kind of fascism, wherein the goals of the state
are defined by Satanists, and the herd follows them (though this is really
quite a "pie-in-the-sky" form of idealism which I find incompatible with the
essential pragmatism of Satanism). And to reiterate what I said above, if
some Satanists want to satisfy themselves with such dreams, they may, so
long as they don't identify them with the aims of the Church of Satan, which
are emphatically not political, nor are they idealistic.]

Stewart: The political and real ideal of Satanism was set forth over 200
years ago and is rooted in the concept of Freedom. Specific examples of
those Freedoms were built into the Constitution of the United States:
freedom of speech, religion, the press, and assembly and petition.

Peter: [We Satanists tend to define the United States as the world's first
"Satanic Republic."

Peter: But you should note that the "founding fathers" did not originally
grant freedom to everyone - it was thought to be a "right" only for those
whom they deemed worthy and capable of intelligent ability to exercise such
freedoms - which originally excluded people such as slaves and women. Thus,
they weren't giving everyone equality, but were advocating freedom for
people whom they defined as equals in ability and capability, an important
distinction that has been lost on many who want to interpret their wisely
constructed governmental structure as being "egalitarian."]

Stewart: Are we to accept any less from an organization, specifically a
Satanic one that supposedly holds the Self sacred, than we demand from our
government? I think not!

Peter: [The Church of Satan is not a political state, but a corporation, and
does not pretend to operate as does the United States government. In
practice, we who administer the organization do as Anton LaVey mandated - we
seek out the assistance of individuals of superior ability to assist in our
goal, which is the dissemination of the philosophy synthesized by Anton
LaVey. This corporation is NOT an autonomous collective, nor is it a
republic or a democracy, and the members have no final say in how it is run.
The members may state their opinions (and should do so, according to one of
our "Rules of the Earth," only when we solicit them). But we who run this
show are under no obligation to act in any way other than as we see fit.
During his life, Anton LaVey was the bottom line for decisions concerning
how the Church of Satan was run. As a member of his Council of Nine for many
years, he often sought my view on matters of import, but he always made his
own final decisions and took the responsibility for them. He picked some of
us to carry on this responsibility, and to do so with the same authority
which he wielded. We do not claim to be doing otherwise, and if people have
joined us under the illusion that they will share in the running of this
corporation simply by paying $100, then they have deluded themselves and are
invited to tender their resignations immediately.]

Stewart: Two hundred years ago, a group of people dedicated to "Nature's
god" looked at the tyranny that they were forced to live with and decided
that such tyranny was no longer to be tolerated or accepted. They pledged
themselves, at the cost of "their lives, fortunes and sacred honor," to
freedom from the tyranny of the "Christian King of Great Britain." The
government they formed in the midst of Revolution was built on principles
Satanists claim as their own: Liberty, Equity and Unity. Liberty: Do as Thou
Wilt. Equity: all have an equal right to Liberty. Unity: those who practice
the principles of Liberty and Equity come together to preserve them,
wherever and whenever they are threatened.

Peter: [Dealt with above - they deemed a select group capable of exercising
these freedoms.]

Stewart: Again, the reader who is paying attention will note that nowhere in
that Satanic ideal will you find anything of the Fascist ideal. Indeed, the
two are anathema to each other. [Depending upon how one defines each of
these ideals - which you treat as absolutes, but which are not.]

Stewart: On an ironic note, it is that very freedom and liberalism that the
Fascist faction finds so abhorrent, that allows the Satanic organization
that they infect to exist! "All religions are equal under the law. The State
should not interfere." Liberals say this.

Peter: [If one is not a member of the "ruling class," but is actually part
of a minority faction in a pluralistic society, then advocating that
"everyone be treated equally under the law" may guarantee that you will have
a maximum amount of personal freedom (if there aren¹t other "power factors"
at work - like wealth). Of course the amount of freedom depends upon the
laws of the society in which one lives and we recognize that special
interest groups often jostle to get more of the "pie" via handouts and
privileges established via state mechanisms) As an aside, Satanists know
that there are no "natural rights" as the concept of rights requires someone
or something to be doling them out, and in the past this is usually
considered to be some God. The only "rights" one has are those given by the
laws of the governmental structure under which you live, and ultimately,
even these devolve into what you may attain for yourself using whatever
personal power you might have. That is why the rich get away with so much
more, as their wealth gives them power and hence, "more rights" in a society
ruled by lawyers and not justice. However, if you belonged to the "ruling
class" you might have a very different perspective. It is true that
self-identified Satanists are currently as I described above, a minority in
a pluralistic society. But what if they achieved a position of being the
"ruling class"? How would clever self-declared Satanists run a government?
What would they advocate? How would they control the masses? This could be a
fine question which could be dealt with in a novel of speculative fiction,
as it is not likely to happen in reality. But, we do know that the people
who really understand how to exercise power on the highest of human levels,
regardless of whatever philosophy they spew as their cover, are actually
maintaining their power by behaving in accordance with the true nature of
the human species, and are thus de facto Satanists.]

Stewart: It can be seen that the ideals of the Fascist have nothing in
common with the ideals of the Satanist, yet here we have a Fascist faction
infecting a Satanic organization.

Peter: [No, it is certainly not true that we have a "Fascist faction
infecting" our Church of Satan. You assert this as fact without offering any
concrete evidence.]

Stewart: What is to be done? The members must either take back the
organization, or they must accept the fact that their organization has been
usurped and conform to the new ideology for conform these Fascists surely
try to make you do! Or they separate themselves and form a new faction. Or
they walk away from the public movement all together. The question I put to
the reader is this: which action is the correct action?

Peter: [It is not the business of the administrators to attempt to argue you
and many of your respondents to this project out of their misprision
regarding this false contention that there is a faction of fascists which
has usurped the Church of Satan. You are wrong. Perhaps now you might be
seeing that you¹ve made an error in your assertions. But, if your
self-proclaimed "anti-fascism clique" (the only "faction" which we
administrators see).....

Peter: .....feels strongly enough in their belief of this fiction, then we
invite all of you to send in your resignations immediately (please use the
San Diego PO Box so that we can close your files with utmost efficiency).
You are advocating that members of the Church of Satan "take back" a
corporation which does not belong to them.

Peter: That sort of "coup" is not possible, and those who advocate such will
not be tolerated as members by this administration. You are hereby advised
to immediately follow your own advice: separate yourselves and form a "new
faction." Your "one true way" attempt to force the entire membership of the
Church of Satan to conform to your opinions is not welcome. It is ironic
that throughout history this has always been the cry of those who want to
establish their own tyranny - the claim to advocate "liberation," which
actually paves the way towards establishing a hegemony which favors their
own special interests. Remember Robespierre? Probably not, else some
perspective would have crept into this "project." So, if any of you has the
"courage of your convictions" we should expect to see your departure, as you
cannot change our methods, which we continue to use exactly as Anton LaVey
mandated we should.

Peter: Additionally, I found it amusing that this whole "project" is spent
railing against the "evils" of fascism. When viewed in a broader
perspective, it simply smacks of jumping on the "politically correct"
bandwagon - "We may be Satanists, but we aren't fascists - heavens no!"

Peter: Such is the usual course of action for those who can't bear to be
without a "goodguy badge." And, as Dr. LaVey pointed out, all wearers of
goodguy badges need an audience - hence the "project" satisfies this dictum.

Stewart: Your concluding paragraph above has the tenor, if not the literary
skills, of missives I recall reading which date from 1975. They were written
by a self-righteous Michael Aquino who had convinced himself that the Church
of Satan had sold-out on its principles. LaVey pointed out to him that he
really didn't understand those principles in the first place and really
didn¹t understand how the organization as a whole was being run. I am now
saying the same to you and those who share your delusion. In some of the
forwarded email exchanges from the " Tani-clique" preceding this "project,"
I noted a railing against the concept of hierarchy in the Church of Satan -
redefining it into something non-natural and then shooting it down (the same
tactic as is used in this "fascism project").

Peter: The Church of Satan has a natural hierarchy, wherein titles are
granted by its administration on the basis of merit. But these titles aren't
"frozen." If someone screws up and lets us down, their title, and even their
membership, may be revoked. There are currently members who have titles,
including Magisters and Magistras, whom the Council has decided have been a
disgrace to these titles, abusing these tokens of esteem and using them to
browbeat other members, or as convincers for specious contentions. While we
are patient and generally trust that our original estimation of these people
may again prove to be their norm, if such does not happen speedily, then we
will not hesitate to bring to an end these members¹ affiliation with the
Church of Satan.

Peter: And if anyone doubts that what we are doing is not as LaVey planned,
we can offer evidence concerning protocols for this Church from its very
earliest of days which I must admit we've actually been fairly lax in
maintaining amongst the rabble of our membership online. Recall that LaVey
specified in "The Cloven Hoof" that one of the ways for getting ahead in the
Church of Satan was termed "pleasing the boss." As I¹ve seen in some email
exchanges from this clique, that last word seems to have bothered some of
you. I would posit that there were some less-than-positive employment
situations in the past for those who feel this way. LaVey did see himself as
the head of his Church, though this does not mean that this position meant
anything more or less than it could in a group whose members join and leave
voluntarily. He expected his members and appointed representatives to
instinctually know the boundaries between "Church business," and the
personal "life matters" that always remained up to each individual. Those
who fail to be able to make this distinction will be called to task. In
matters of their own lives, Church of Satan members have complete
sovereignty - they are their own bosses (to paraphrase a current pop tune
lyric, "We ain't the boss of thee"). Members of the Church of Satan have
always been expected to treat each other as "ladies and gentlemen."

Peter: Additionally, those who work at administering the organization ARE
part of a corporate hierarchy, and they are expected to act accordingly.
That includes people who are granted the privilege of representing the
Church of Satan - it comes with specific responsibilities, and if these are
not willingly accepted, then the privilege may honorably be refused. Once
accepted, if these responsibilities are abused, then the position is
revoked. Over the course of the history of our Church, there have often been
times when people had to lay down their titles as they could not continue to
honor the responsibilities which came with them. Did one of our "founding
fathers," General George Washington, confer with all of his soldiers before
he made tactical decisions? No. He consulted with his hand-picked trusted
advisors, then made his choice based on his own evaluations of the facts and
the opinions he received by request. And he expected adherence to his
decisions about this situation in which all were voluntarily involved. That
is the natural way an organized meritocratic group (which seeks to attain a
common goal) works. It is not anarchic, and the leader (boss) does not waste
time soliciting the thoughts of all involved - only the ideas of those who
count in his estimation. That is how LaVey ran the Church of Satan, and that
is how we continue to run the Church of Satan. If any of you are peeved
because you haven't earned a place amongst those whose opinions count, you
only have yourselves to blame.

Peter: For the edification of those who are "anti-hierarchy," we include an
excerpt from "The Cloven Hoof" which delineated precisely how it was
expected that Church of Satan members should deal with each other. LaVey
promoted this ideal, and we are certain that he would be ashamed if he could
witness the sorry spectacle we've had the misfortune of viewing as it takes
place in chat rooms and on Usenet.

Peter:Hail Satan!
Magister Peter H. Gilmore For High Priestess Barton and the rest of the
Council of Nine


Now tyagi, GO READ what tim actually had up on his website - I POSTED IT.
Go read it. WHEN you read the essays - you tell me WHAT the hell Gilmor was
rambling about.

Post by nagasiva
blessed beast!
boboroshi at-sign satanservice.org: Satanic Outreach Director
Church of Euthanasia: http://www.churchofeuthanasia.org/
TOKUS WEBLINKS: http://dmoz.org/Bookmarks/B/boboroshi/
Ninth Scholar's Library (Satanism Archive): http://www.satanservice.org/