Adversarial Religions and Anti-Religion

Discussion:

(too old to reply)

SOD of the CoE

2005-01-27 08:29:20 UTC

Hail Satan!!!

"Tani Jantsang ©" <***@SPAMpost.com>:
# "SOD of the CoE" <***@boboroshi> wrote in message
#> "Tani Jantsang ©" <***@SPAMpost.com>:
#># bobo:

# Ghetto or not. Ben is here.

apparently you cannot correctly identify CoS spokespeople.

# I notice they continually post to me (I can see their brazen nicks right on
# there, like white on snow) even when I have not posted to them at all.

right. a certain amount of attention sustains them, sometimes minimal
for stellar personalities upon whom they feed. to an extent the
victimized and misfortunate may fall prey to such individuals.

#># ...you, Cat and I seem to agree on what their satanism arose
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
#># out of (Christianity)

I'm not sure this is true. I am not saying that you and sri catyananda
do not agree. she's said similar things before on the subject.
perhaps you agree that there is no resonance amongst 'Satanisms'.

#># and about the aesthetic or cultural values he went for (40s).

seems obvious enough, as any Satanist probably would.

#> see my posts in response to "si" recently. I don't think you and
#> I are completely aligned with regard to that.
#
# Wrong. I 100% agree that LaVeyan satanism comes from Christianity.

not sure to what "Wrong" refers. even LaVey said that his Satanism
emerged from Christian context. what's your point? you think
that LaVey and his Council of Nine believed that

1) they had been raised Christian?
or that 2) they were practicing a Christian faith?

I don't. if you do then your title and its withdrawal are amusing.
my recall is that LaVey specifies Satanism's transcultural nature
and does not limit it *to* Christianity in its birthing. apparently
you don't see cross-cultural symptoms. do you have reason to
question the existence of these types of 'anti-religion'?
or that LaVey's doesn't constitute a variety of these?

# I regard it as a subset of Christianity.

I call 'em 'Great Martyrdom Cult' examples. maybe you think
along similar lines. is Set mortal? if not, then why not? are
stories that link him with his brother Osiris in ever-lasting
everdying-rebirthing combat from some particular *type*
of Egyptian religion? if so, which kind and how much do
they overlap with modern Setianism? I'd be inclined to
conclude that a transcultural phenomenon (if LaVey is correct)
is *less* like Christianity than Setianism is like Judaism,
which Christianity is trying to subsume, overwhelm, take over.

# I do not agree that TOSetianism comes from it at all since
# it's all Egyptian (which is not from Xianity or related to
# Judeo Christianity at all)....

but that's what seems so weird, Tani. people say stuff like
this, but a great deal of emphasis IS placed upon Egypt as
a school and initiation-center of Moses or Moshe. this guy
is supposed to have been the *author* of the Big Jewish 5
*scripture* (Pentateuch), and the Christians are all hot to
make it *their* scripture too. does "Coming Forth by Day"
('The Egyptian Book of the Dead'?) have implications for Jews?
can we pin the Egyptian god tail on the Jewish Yahweh? if not,
are they contemporaneous at points? are their worship-targets
ever immortal enemies or something, the way that Set *is*
paired with Osiris (precursive dying gods before Christianity)?

the Hermetics regard Egypt as the homeland of the Great
Thrice Hermes-Mercurio who was their Big Magician (tales).
Set is a type of improvement on the efforts of the Golden
Dawn and LaVey (IFF Christian and not transcultural).

by tapping directly into the Judeo-Christian magic central,
and aligning with a specific cultural adversary to Jews in
particular (compare Nazis, with whom you say he's been
unfairly associated, another anti-Jewish faction), this is
perhaps not Christian, but something akin to it (theistic
religion from the Middle-East worshipping a particular god).

LaVey described his Satanism as transcultural, and therefore
something which he had *discovered* amidst Christianity (not
too difficult as the dualism is dissected in symbolic glory
though millennia and a Satanist has much to work with).
thus Satanism (as Satan) appears in many valences, Setianism
bolding its ecclesia over time into an Egyptian obelisk.

*Setianism* and Christianity are, in this manner, more
completely adversaries (in a PERSONAL sense, by history),
whereas Satanism is just a projected drapery for what of
its many adversaries worried the Christians most which
might be inverted, turned against it, and glorified.

Setianism *is* religiously-exclusive, a type of deism with
its own theology, while Satanism tends toward the *anti*-
religious atheistic, or of great variety in spirit-engagement,
eradicating the need for theology on an altar of realism and
epicurean safeguards (evading superficial ghost-worlds).

of COURSE Satanism comes out of Christianity, like a
FRANKENSTEIN monster, the Bogey that got away from the poor
Christians (after the witches they burned and hanged) who
now watch it paraded about before them while they tremble
and shake in their shoes, warning all the police agencies.

Setianism is against Christianity as a direct competitor
to *Judaism* (which Christianity hopes to completely engulf
and subsume). Setianism is at *odds* with Judaism, isn't it?
the priesthoods don't *ever* intersect, do they? at cosmological
odds with one another, unless the Setians go to C.G. Jung and
beg and plead for help, their theology originates in *1* place
and is in this way inferior to the more inclusive vision of LaVey,
and the special pleading enlightenment offered by the CoE.

#> I'm more enamoured
#> of certain expressions elsewhere by LaVey on the matter of the
#> transcultural existence of Satanism, its name differing within
#> ever culture it may appear.

this disputes your notion that Satanism is a type of Christianity
(because it erupts within several systems, as portrayed by LaVey
and others; Barton's Quotations has something to this effect :>).

# The problem is that some cultures were LHP cultures....

unimportant as far as I know. if LHP is anti-cultural,
this complicates the nature of 'LHP culture'.

inasmuch as

Chaos > Vamamarga > Satanism > Thelema
anti anti anti anti
order culture religion corporation

what is Vamamarga's relation to culture, OTHER than that of negation?
does it not runs *against* cultural standards? perhaps crude reflections
or presages, heralds, are seen in orientalist Satanism outbreaks.

# ...our DEITY is the BLACK GOD OF TRANSCENDENT AWARENESS....

doesn't sound like Satan or some being that Christians mistook
to *be* Satan (aside from your ignorant Christian friends who
didn't know any better or who are smitten with devil-hatred).

# ...The nature we are is NOMADIC....

you have multiple-dwellings from which you're posting?

# ...the Vajra came from that "Great Blackness", it's in us - but
# it's more or less samsaric. ONLY the BLACK GOD is real - aka the
# Void.

fun.

#> I'd go further and suggest that only within certain
#> dualistic, condemnatory cultures does it make sense.
#
# You are maybe thinking of this only in terms of duality.

no, I'm thinking of it in terms of LaVeyan Satanism, not
Sat-Tan(i)-ism, and not ToSetianism. reactionary developments
such as LaVey describes seem predisposed to grapple with
condemnatory, Blood Libel rhetoric and propaganda, using
the Bogey in sociopolitical ju-jutsu.

Setianism seems to be about worshipping some Egyptian god.
amusingly, Judaism seems to be about worshipping a Jewish
god, and so does Christianity and Islam (Semitic god at least).

in this way Setianism is far more like Religions of the Book
than the transcultural anti-religious Religion of the Book
(LaVeyan Satanism, aka CoSatanism). the latter is healthy
and realistic, scientific and atheistic and is important
in comparison with the rank stupidity which religion
always seems to bring.

# What of whole cultures that have NO dualities?

there's Satanism as LaVey describes it there? not that
I am aware, but you're not talking about that, I guess.
I'd like to understand how it intersects. Black God worship?
playing with culturally-distributed special (natural!) power?
you say you don't have ceremonies but your tribe does?

#># dress up like one, but you aren't one. It's EXACTLY like the wigger
#># phenomena which makes me wonder why he hated that so much.
#>
#> some suggest that this is all that there IS to Satanism, of course.
#> cf. GMC materials elsewhere posted to "si".

# ...If "satan": is the prince of darkness - go from there only ....

Ahriman?

# ...we know ALL ABOUT these things.

through your special powers (natural!) no doubt.

# It's looking into the ABYSS - only FOR REAL, Bobo.

Eastern mystics or Hermetic CMs.

# This stuff is NOT for everyone. We say it's potentially dangerous.

sure, power ascribed is usually couched with danger-zones.
it can be seen in some spellcrafting subcultures, and in
the New Age neo-tantric culture too. what is "K yoga",
and where did you learn about it?

<SNIP>

#>#> that's where the Dark Flame could come in, to whisk the pesky
#>#> klippoths off the path before one, interweave such that their
#>#> presence would constitute no interruption of one's attentions.
#>#
#># Or easier still - REMOVE the conversation from their neighborhood
#># to where they can not see it. MUCH easier.

thus it depends on whether they are valuable for some reason.

#> I call that *fleeing from the adversary*, which is valuable when
#> it is more powerful or capable of disrupting your gig. when you
#> are the superior power, then their noise is not significant and
#> you will be able to ride over-top them.
#
# My method is what I call YIN. Your method is YANG. In real life,
# I do not go out of MY way to confront adversaries.

/ignore, killfile, email-filter, browser-filter just make sense.
it isn't confrontational, it's just rational. ;>

# The very few times that a preacher type tried to preach to me,
# that person never came back twice. I gave him NO food. On some
# level, I think such people feel that they have just thrown their
# words, efforts and soul into the void where it can never come
# back out. That simple. All I did was YIN.

stifling such interactions is pretty easy, as is calmly
raising the level of respect in the interchange.

#> the use
#> of killfiles has been stigmatized by trolls who want your and
#> my attention. fall for it if you like, but complaining about
#> their disruption while falling for their lies is hamstringed.
#>
#> Doug-on Prod-ductions was attempting to point out this in a
#> very mean way to you. his point is sound, even if you ignore it.
#
# He should take his own advice,

his advice was that if one doesn't like something or someone,
then they could ignore them. he hasn't complained about you,
of which I'm aware. he just keeps insulting you. what that
means about your interest in interacting with him is unknown.

# since he posts all over the place to me when I've not said
# a word to him

oh good.

# - and no, I didn't read his stupid shit.

oh, ok, whew! blessed beast!

boboroshi at-sign satanservice.org: Satanic Outreach Director
Church of Euthanasia: http://www.churchofeuthanasia.org/
TOKUS WEBLINKS: http://dmoz.org/Bookmarks/B/boboroshi/
Ninth Scholar's Library (Satanism Archive): http://www.satanservice.org/

Ben Schultz

2005-01-27 15:00:22 UTC

Permalink

Just a thought on the origins of Judaism & christianity. What does
this have to do with the current discussion? Not a who lot, but
indulge me for a moment.

Have you ever heard of the Pharaoh Akhenaton?

http://mars.acnet.wnec.edu/~grempel/courses/wc1/lectures/03akhenaton.html

From what I can gather, and I have not done an extensive study, this
Pharaoh believed in a single all powerful deity. He forcibly converted
all of Egypt to this religion during his reign.

After his death, those who refused to return to the worship of the old
gods were enslaved. Coincidentally, history seems to lose track of the
followers of Atun about the same time we learn of the "exodus."

This page gives some basic information about the cult of Aten.

http://members.tripod.com/historel/egypt/17nouemp.htm

The followers of Atun believed a great many things that neatly
coincide with modern Judeo-christian dogma. For example, because of
their captivity, they were not able to speak the name of their deity.
Thus began the "unspeakable name of god."

The followers of Aten were the first Egyptians to put darkness in
opposition to light in a spiritual sense. Prior to the rise of the
Cult of Aten, the darkness & night were seen as a regenerative time
for the sun.

http://freepages.history.rootsweb.com/~rgrosser/amarna/

And, while early Egyptians believed that they would be judged by their
deities and live in paradise after death, The concept of the dead
dwelling with their deity also seems to have an origin with this
religious group.

The discovery channel has a wonderful special about Akhenaton. Of
course, they don't draw the same conclusions that I did, but they do
relay the information necessary to reach the same conclusion.

Post by SOD of the CoE
Hail Satan!!!
# Ghetto or not. Ben is here.
apparently you cannot correctly identify CoS spokespeople.
# I notice they continually post to me (I can see their brazen nicks right on
# there, like white on snow) even when I have not posted to them at all.
right. a certain amount of attention sustains them, sometimes minimal
for stellar personalities upon whom they feed. to an extent the
victimized and misfortunate may fall prey to such individuals.
#># ...you, Cat and I seem to agree on what their satanism arose
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
#># out of (Christianity)
I'm not sure this is true. I am not saying that you and sri catyananda
do not agree. she's said similar things before on the subject.
perhaps you agree that there is no resonance amongst 'Satanisms'.
#># and about the aesthetic or cultural values he went for (40s).
seems obvious enough, as any Satanist probably would.
#> see my posts in response to "si" recently. I don't think you and
#> I are completely aligned with regard to that.
#
# Wrong. I 100% agree that LaVeyan satanism comes from Christianity.
not sure to what "Wrong" refers. even LaVey said that his Satanism
emerged from Christian context. what's your point? you think
that LaVey and his Council of Nine believed that
1) they had been raised Christian?
or that 2) they were practicing a Christian faith?
I don't. if you do then your title and its withdrawal are amusing.
my recall is that LaVey specifies Satanism's transcultural nature
and does not limit it *to* Christianity in its birthing. apparently
you don't see cross-cultural symptoms. do you have reason to
question the existence of these types of 'anti-religion'?
or that LaVey's doesn't constitute a variety of these?
# I regard it as a subset of Christianity.
I call 'em 'Great Martyrdom Cult' examples. maybe you think
along similar lines. is Set mortal? if not, then why not? are
stories that link him with his brother Osiris in ever-lasting
everdying-rebirthing combat from some particular *type*
of Egyptian religion? if so, which kind and how much do
they overlap with modern Setianism? I'd be inclined to
conclude that a transcultural phenomenon (if LaVey is correct)
is *less* like Christianity than Setianism is like Judaism,
which Christianity is trying to subsume, overwhelm, take over.
# I do not agree that TOSetianism comes from it at all since
# it's all Egyptian (which is not from Xianity or related to
# Judeo Christianity at all)....
but that's what seems so weird, Tani. people say stuff like
this, but a great deal of emphasis IS placed upon Egypt as
a school and initiation-center of Moses or Moshe. this guy
is supposed to have been the *author* of the Big Jewish 5
*scripture* (Pentateuch), and the Christians are all hot to
make it *their* scripture too. does "Coming Forth by Day"
('The Egyptian Book of the Dead'?) have implications for Jews?
can we pin the Egyptian god tail on the Jewish Yahweh? if not,
are they contemporaneous at points? are their worship-targets
ever immortal enemies or something, the way that Set *is*
paired with Osiris (precursive dying gods before Christianity)?
the Hermetics regard Egypt as the homeland of the Great
Thrice Hermes-Mercurio who was their Big Magician (tales).
Set is a type of improvement on the efforts of the Golden
Dawn and LaVey (IFF Christian and not transcultural).
by tapping directly into the Judeo-Christian magic central,
and aligning with a specific cultural adversary to Jews in
particular (compare Nazis, with whom you say he's been
unfairly associated, another anti-Jewish faction), this is
perhaps not Christian, but something akin to it (theistic
religion from the Middle-East worshipping a particular god).
LaVey described his Satanism as transcultural, and therefore
something which he had *discovered* amidst Christianity (not
too difficult as the dualism is dissected in symbolic glory
though millennia and a Satanist has much to work with).
thus Satanism (as Satan) appears in many valences, Setianism
bolding its ecclesia over time into an Egyptian obelisk.
*Setianism* and Christianity are, in this manner, more
completely adversaries (in a PERSONAL sense, by history),
whereas Satanism is just a projected drapery for what of
its many adversaries worried the Christians most which
might be inverted, turned against it, and glorified.
Setianism *is* religiously-exclusive, a type of deism with
its own theology, while Satanism tends toward the *anti*-
religious atheistic, or of great variety in spirit-engagement,
eradicating the need for theology on an altar of realism and
epicurean safeguards (evading superficial ghost-worlds).
of COURSE Satanism comes out of Christianity, like a
FRANKENSTEIN monster, the Bogey that got away from the poor
Christians (after the witches they burned and hanged) who
now watch it paraded about before them while they tremble
and shake in their shoes, warning all the police agencies.
Setianism is against Christianity as a direct competitor
to *Judaism* (which Christianity hopes to completely engulf
and subsume). Setianism is at *odds* with Judaism, isn't it?
the priesthoods don't *ever* intersect, do they? at cosmological
odds with one another, unless the Setians go to C.G. Jung and
beg and plead for help, their theology originates in *1* place
and is in this way inferior to the more inclusive vision of LaVey,
and the special pleading enlightenment offered by the CoE.
#> I'm more enamoured
#> of certain expressions elsewhere by LaVey on the matter of the
#> transcultural existence of Satanism, its name differing within
#> ever culture it may appear.
this disputes your notion that Satanism is a type of Christianity
(because it erupts within several systems, as portrayed by LaVey
and others; Barton's Quotations has something to this effect :>).
# The problem is that some cultures were LHP cultures....
unimportant as far as I know. if LHP is anti-cultural,
this complicates the nature of 'LHP culture'.
inasmuch as
Chaos > Vamamarga > Satanism > Thelema
anti anti anti anti
order culture religion corporation
what is Vamamarga's relation to culture, OTHER than that of negation?
does it not runs *against* cultural standards? perhaps crude reflections
or presages, heralds, are seen in orientalist Satanism outbreaks.
# ...our DEITY is the BLACK GOD OF TRANSCENDENT AWARENESS....
doesn't sound like Satan or some being that Christians mistook
to *be* Satan (aside from your ignorant Christian friends who
didn't know any better or who are smitten with devil-hatred).
# ...The nature we are is NOMADIC....
you have multiple-dwellings from which you're posting?
# ...the Vajra came from that "Great Blackness", it's in us - but
# it's more or less samsaric. ONLY the BLACK GOD is real - aka the
# Void.
fun.
#> I'd go further and suggest that only within certain
#> dualistic, condemnatory cultures does it make sense.
#
# You are maybe thinking of this only in terms of duality.
no, I'm thinking of it in terms of LaVeyan Satanism, not
Sat-Tan(i)-ism, and not ToSetianism. reactionary developments
such as LaVey describes seem predisposed to grapple with
condemnatory, Blood Libel rhetoric and propaganda, using
the Bogey in sociopolitical ju-jutsu.
Setianism seems to be about worshipping some Egyptian god.
amusingly, Judaism seems to be about worshipping a Jewish
god, and so does Christianity and Islam (Semitic god at least).
in this way Setianism is far more like Religions of the Book
than the transcultural anti-religious Religion of the Book
(LaVeyan Satanism, aka CoSatanism). the latter is healthy
and realistic, scientific and atheistic and is important
in comparison with the rank stupidity which religion
always seems to bring.
# What of whole cultures that have NO dualities?
there's Satanism as LaVey describes it there? not that
I am aware, but you're not talking about that, I guess.
I'd like to understand how it intersects. Black God worship?
playing with culturally-distributed special (natural!) power?
you say you don't have ceremonies but your tribe does?
#># dress up like one, but you aren't one. It's EXACTLY like the wigger
#># phenomena which makes me wonder why he hated that so much.
#>
#> some suggest that this is all that there IS to Satanism, of course.
#> cf. GMC materials elsewhere posted to "si".
# ...If "satan": is the prince of darkness - go from there only ....
Ahriman?
# ...we know ALL ABOUT these things.
through your special powers (natural!) no doubt.
# It's looking into the ABYSS - only FOR REAL, Bobo.
Eastern mystics or Hermetic CMs.
# This stuff is NOT for everyone. We say it's potentially dangerous.
sure, power ascribed is usually couched with danger-zones.
it can be seen in some spellcrafting subcultures, and in
the New Age neo-tantric culture too. what is "K yoga",
and where did you learn about it?
<SNIP>
#>#> that's where the Dark Flame could come in, to whisk the pesky
#>#> klippoths off the path before one, interweave such that their
#>#> presence would constitute no interruption of one's attentions.
#>#
#># Or easier still - REMOVE the conversation from their neighborhood
#># to where they can not see it. MUCH easier.
thus it depends on whether they are valuable for some reason.
#> I call that *fleeing from the adversary*, which is valuable when
#> it is more powerful or capable of disrupting your gig. when you
#> are the superior power, then their noise is not significant and
#> you will be able to ride over-top them.
#
# My method is what I call YIN. Your method is YANG. In real life,
# I do not go out of MY way to confront adversaries.
/ignore, killfile, email-filter, browser-filter just make sense.
it isn't confrontational, it's just rational. ;>
# The very few times that a preacher type tried to preach to me,
# that person never came back twice. I gave him NO food. On some
# level, I think such people feel that they have just thrown their
# words, efforts and soul into the void where it can never come
# back out. That simple. All I did was YIN.
stifling such interactions is pretty easy, as is calmly
raising the level of respect in the interchange.
#> the use
#> of killfiles has been stigmatized by trolls who want your and
#> my attention. fall for it if you like, but complaining about
#> their disruption while falling for their lies is hamstringed.
#>
#> Doug-on Prod-ductions was attempting to point out this in a
#> very mean way to you. his point is sound, even if you ignore it.
#
# He should take his own advice,
his advice was that if one doesn't like something or someone,
then they could ignore them. he hasn't complained about you,
of which I'm aware. he just keeps insulting you. what that
means about your interest in interacting with him is unknown.
# since he posts all over the place to me when I've not said
# a word to him
oh good.
# - and no, I didn't read his stupid shit.
oh, ok, whew! blessed beast!
boboroshi at-sign satanservice.org: Satanic Outreach Director
Church of Euthanasia: http://www.churchofeuthanasia.org/
TOKUS WEBLINKS: http://dmoz.org/Bookmarks/B/boboroshi/
Ninth Scholar's Library (Satanism Archive): http://www.satanservice.org/

"The two most common elements in the universe are hydrogen and stupidity. But not in that order."- Brian Pickrell

www.devilzown.com

Tani Jantsang ©

2005-01-27 21:58:57 UTC

Permalink

Moses was Moshe, Akhenaton's priest.

Egyptians were not enslaved after Akhnaton died. His own son turned against
his intolerance. The problem was tolerance - and Akhnaton's lack of it.
They tried to erase his name from history, as if to erase HIM.

Post by Ben Schultz
Just a thought on the origins of Judaism & christianity. What does
this have to do with the current discussion? Not a who lot, but
indulge me for a moment.
Have you ever heard of the Pharaoh Akhenaton?
http://mars.acnet.wnec.edu/~grempel/courses/wc1/lectures/03akhenaton.html
From what I can gather, and I have not done an extensive study, this
Pharaoh believed in a single all powerful deity. He forcibly converted
all of Egypt to this religion during his reign.
After his death, those who refused to return to the worship of the old
gods were enslaved. Coincidentally, history seems to lose track of the
followers of Atun about the same time we learn of the "exodus."
This page gives some basic information about the cult of Aten.
http://members.tripod.com/historel/egypt/17nouemp.htm
The followers of Atun believed a great many things that neatly
coincide with modern Judeo-christian dogma. For example, because of
their captivity, they were not able to speak the name of their deity.
Thus began the "unspeakable name of god."
The followers of Aten were the first Egyptians to put darkness in
opposition to light in a spiritual sense. Prior to the rise of the
Cult of Aten, the darkness & night were seen as a regenerative time
for the sun.
http://freepages.history.rootsweb.com/~rgrosser/amarna/
And, while early Egyptians believed that they would be judged by their
deities and live in paradise after death, The concept of the dead
dwelling with their deity also seems to have an origin with this
religious group.
The discovery channel has a wonderful special about Akhenaton. Of
course, they don't draw the same conclusions that I did, but they do
relay the information necessary to reach the same conclusion.

"The two most common elements in the universe are hydrogen and stupidity.
But not in that order."- Brian Pickrell
www.devilzown.com

Ben Schultz

2005-01-27 22:46:04 UTC

Permalink

I don't dispute that they tried to erase Akhenaton.

I just find it fascinating how closely the story of his followers
matches that of early christians & how closely their religions mesh.

On Thu, 27 Jan 2005 21:58:57 GMT, "Tani Jantsang ©"

Post by Tani Jantsang Â©
Moses was Moshe, Akhenaton's priest.
Egyptians were not enslaved after Akhnaton died. His own son turned against
his intolerance. The problem was tolerance - and Akhnaton's lack of it.
They tried to erase his name from history, as if to erase HIM.

"The two most common elements in the universe are hydrogen and stupidity.
But not in that order."- Brian Pickrell
www.devilzown.com

"The two most common elements in the universe are hydrogen and stupidity. But not in that order."- Brian Pickrell

www.devilzown.com

Tani Jantsang ©

2005-01-27 21:53:54 UTC

Permalink

Post by SOD of the CoE
Hail Satan!!!
# Ghetto or not. Ben is here.
apparently you cannot correctly identify CoS spokespeople.

If he's a member and grotto master, he probably CAN speak for them - all he
needs to do is ask.

Post by SOD of the CoE
# I notice they continually post to me (I can see their brazen nicks right on
# there, like white on snow) even when I have not posted to them at all.
right. a certain amount of attention sustains them, sometimes minimal
for stellar personalities upon whom they feed. to an extent the
victimized and misfortunate may fall prey to such individuals.

Well, heh, as I said to you before, there ain't nothing like free publicity
when the asshole thinks it's something else :-D. They can feel free to
"spend" their lives on it. It's hard NOT to notice that they are doing just
that. (And someone wonders about chi bolts on here? LMAO)

Post by SOD of the CoE
#># ...you, Cat and I seem to agree on what their satanism arose
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
#># out of (Christianity)
I'm not sure this is true. I am not saying that you and sri catyananda
do not agree. she's said similar things before on the subject.
perhaps you agree that there is no resonance amongst 'Satanisms'.
#># and about the aesthetic or cultural values he went for (40s).
seems obvious enough, as any Satanist probably would.

I lost the context here; subject is too old. Any satanist would go for 40s
cultural values?

Post by SOD of the CoE
#> see my posts in response to "si" recently. I don't think you and
#> I are completely aligned with regard to that.
#
# Wrong. I 100% agree that LaVeyan satanism comes from Christianity.
not sure to what "Wrong" refers. even LaVey said that his Satanism
emerged from Christian context. what's your point? you think
that LaVey and his Council of Nine believed that
1) they had been raised Christian?
or that 2) they were practicing a Christian faith?

Imo, inversion Christian faith is the same as Christian faith. Two sides of
the same identical coin. They have not escaped that coin. I never changed
my stance on that.

Post by SOD of the CoE
I don't. if you do then your title

Given for DDoc material explaining ASL's dark force in nature.

Post by SOD of the CoE
and its withdrawal

For trashing them in public and to Barton's face as fascists and bullies of
the worst sort.

are amusing.

Post by SOD of the CoE
my recall is that LaVey specifies Satanism's transcultural nature
and does not limit it *to* Christianity in its birthing. apparently

His limiting it to Christianity is due to his ignorance of anything OTHER
THAN Christianity on which to rag upon.

Post by SOD of the CoE
you don't see cross-cultural symptoms. do you have reason to
question the existence of these types of 'anti-religion'?
or that LaVey's doesn't constitute a variety of these?

He stands for a type of anti religion - one religion in particular, listing
their "sins" and all that. It's obvious.

Post by SOD of the CoE
# I regard it as a subset of Christianity.
I call 'em 'Great Martyrdom Cult' examples. maybe you think
along similar lines. is Set mortal? if not, then why not? are
stories that link him with his brother Osiris in ever-lasting
everdying-rebirthing combat from some particular *type*
of Egyptian religion? if so, which kind and how much do
they overlap with modern Setianism? I'd be inclined to
conclude that a transcultural phenomenon (if LaVey is correct)
is *less* like Christianity than Setianism is like Judaism,
which Christianity is trying to subsume, overwhelm, take over.

Set VERSUS Osiris is a much later development in the Egyptian Set religion.
It was also on and off with that myth.

Post by SOD of the CoE
# I do not agree that TOSetianism comes from it at all since
# it's all Egyptian (which is not from Xianity or related to
# Judeo Christianity at all)....
but that's what seems so weird, Tani. people say stuff like
this, but a great deal of emphasis IS placed upon Egypt as
a school and initiation-center of Moses or Moshe. this guy
is supposed to have been the *author* of the Big Jewish 5
*scripture* (Pentateuch), and the Christians are all hot to
make it *their* scripture too. does "Coming Forth by Day"
('The Egyptian Book of the Dead'?) have implications for Jews?
can we pin the Egyptian god tail on the Jewish Yahweh? if not,
are they contemporaneous at points? are their worship-targets
ever immortal enemies or something, the way that Set *is*
paired with Osiris (precursive dying gods before Christianity)?

The Set worship in Egypt long predates contact with Jews there. It long
predates Moses (Moshe) the priest of Akhnaton.

Post by SOD of the CoE
the Hermetics regard Egypt as the homeland of the Great
Thrice Hermes-Mercurio who was their Big Magician (tales).
Set is a type of improvement on the efforts of the Golden
Dawn and LaVey (IFF Christian and not transcultural).

I don't think so.

Post by SOD of the CoE
by tapping directly into the Judeo-Christian magic central,
and aligning with a specific cultural adversary to Jews in
particular (compare Nazis, with whom you say he's been
unfairly associated, another anti-Jewish faction), this is
perhaps not Christian, but something akin to it (theistic
religion from the Middle-East worshipping a particular god).

They don't focus on adversarialism against Jews there. That event happened
thousands of years later than the first Set worship in Egypt. Jews are
also not the only "hapiru" they kicked out. HA - they had immigration
problems and they solved them by kicking the foreigners out. Good for them.

Post by SOD of the CoE
LaVey described his Satanism as transcultural, and therefore

Don't care what he described. He got white males for the most part in his
org. That is WHO it called out to.

Post by SOD of the CoE
something which he had *discovered* amidst Christianity (not
too difficult as the dualism is dissected in symbolic glory
though millennia and a Satanist has much to work with).
thus Satanism (as Satan) appears in many valences, Setianism
bolding its ecclesia over time into an Egyptian obelisk.

There are many other documents, doctrines, other than Book of Coming Forth
by Night in that org - and Foster showed these to me.

Post by SOD of the CoE
*Setianism* and Christianity are, in this manner, more
completely adversaries (in a PERSONAL sense, by history),

Setianism would be as adverse to Christianity as is Islam today - Islamic
experts, for instance, wrote about why Islam is NOT COMPATIBLE with
democracy. It is intolerant. Egypt was extremely tolerant of other
religions. Only Akhnaton tried to change that and for doing that, he was
nationally hated (and yeah, his priest was Moses). HATED for his rigid
intolerance.

Post by SOD of the CoE
whereas Satanism is just a projected drapery for what of
its many adversaries worried the Christians most which
might be inverted, turned against it, and glorified.
Setianism *is* religiously-exclusive, a type of deism with
its own theology, while Satanism tends toward the *anti*-
religious atheistic,

Agree.

or of great variety in spirit-engagement,

Post by SOD of the CoE
eradicating the need for theology on an altar of realism and
epicurean safeguards (evading superficial ghost-worlds).
of COURSE Satanism comes out of Christianity, like a
FRANKENSTEIN monster, the Bogey that got away from the poor
Christians (after the witches they burned and hanged) who
now watch it paraded about before them while they tremble
and shake in their shoes, warning all the police agencies.
Setianism is against Christianity as a direct competitor
to *Judaism* (which Christianity hopes to completely engulf
and subsume).

The Christians will NEVER engulf and subsume the Jews. Jews are so much
smarter than Christian people - so much more cunning. It will never happen.

Setianism is at *odds* with Judaism, isn't it?

Post by SOD of the CoE
the priesthoods don't *ever* intersect, do they?

I don't know - Setianism is not about Judaism - there are Jews in high
positions in the TOS - best to ask them about it! I really don't know. But
Setianism is not about ANTI. Setianism is about the FORCE or PRESENSE called
Set - the Black Flame itself - within people. In that case, they are a LOT
like us and the DDocs! They write their stuff up in a much more mystical
and also abstract manner. DDocs are in-your-gut concrete.

at cosmological

Post by SOD of the CoE
odds with one another, unless the Setians go to C.G. Jung and
beg and plead for help, their theology originates in *1* place
and is in this way inferior to the more inclusive vision of LaVey,
and the special pleading enlightenment offered by the CoE.
#> I'm more enamoured
#> of certain expressions elsewhere by LaVey on the matter of the
#> transcultural existence of Satanism, its name differing within
#> ever culture it may appear.
this disputes your notion that Satanism is a type of Christianity
(because it erupts within several systems, as portrayed by LaVey
and others; Barton's Quotations has something to this effect :>).
# The problem is that some cultures were LHP cultures....
unimportant as far as I know. if LHP is anti-cultural,
this complicates the nature of 'LHP culture'.

No, LHP is not anti cultural at all. It's YIN in a sense, people who are
LHP tend to be nomadic in the INNER sense (not necessarily that they still
live like that).

Post by SOD of the CoE
inasmuch as
Chaos > Vamamarga > Satanism > Thelema
anti anti anti anti
order culture religion corporation
what is Vamamarga's relation to culture, OTHER than that of negation?
does it not runs *against* cultural standards? perhaps crude reflections
or presages, heralds, are seen in orientalist Satanism outbreaks.

That is only one definition of LHP - imo a wrongly superficial one.

Post by SOD of the CoE
# ...our DEITY is the BLACK GOD OF TRANSCENDENT AWARENESS....
doesn't sound like Satan or some being that Christians mistook
to *be* Satan (aside from your ignorant Christian friends who
didn't know any better or who are smitten with devil-hatred).

To you it doesn't. To Foster Mahakala certainly DID sound like it.

Post by SOD of the CoE
# ...The nature we are is NOMADIC....
you have multiple-dwellings from which you're posting?

In the past I'd have had that. I mean in the inner sense.

Post by SOD of the CoE
# ...the Vajra came from that "Great Blackness", it's in us - but
# it's more or less samsaric. ONLY the BLACK GOD is real - aka the
# Void.
fun.

I think the problem is you just don't understand what I'm saying here - and
probably becauase you never experienced it.

Post by SOD of the CoE
#> I'd go further and suggest that only within certain
#> dualistic, condemnatory cultures does it make sense.
#
# You are maybe thinking of this only in terms of duality.
no, I'm thinking of it in terms of LaVeyan Satanism, not
Sat-Tan(i)-ism, and not ToSetianism. reactionary developments
such as LaVey describes seem predisposed to grapple with
condemnatory, Blood Libel rhetoric and propaganda, using
the Bogey in sociopolitical ju-jutsu.

I can't speak for ToS, but Sat Tanism is OUTSIDE of these religious
dualities and their adversaries. We don't even want people like that in the
org.

Post by SOD of the CoE
Setianism seems to be about worshipping some Egyptian god.
amusingly, Judaism seems to be about worshipping a Jewish
god, and so does Christianity and Islam (Semitic god at least).
in this way Setianism is far more like Religions of the Book
than the transcultural anti-religious Religion of the Book
(LaVeyan Satanism, aka CoSatanism). the latter is healthy
and realistic, scientific and atheistic and is important
in comparison with the rank stupidity which religion
always seems to bring.

Sat Tanism is about the flame within and enlightenment - it doesn't matter
if a person is an atheist, Jew or whatever. !

Post by SOD of the CoE
# What of whole cultures that have NO dualities?
there's Satanism as LaVey describes it there? not that
I am aware, but you're not talking about that, I guess.
I'd like to understand how it intersects. Black God worship?
playing with culturally-distributed special (natural!) power?
you say you don't have ceremonies but your tribe does?

More like parties, I'd say - unless it's preparation for war stuff which I
DO NOT write about when it comes to culture (not SR org).

Post by SOD of the CoE
#># dress up like one, but you aren't one. It's EXACTLY like the wigger
#># phenomena which makes me wonder why he hated that so much.
#>
#> some suggest that this is all that there IS to Satanism, of course.
#> cf. GMC materials elsewhere posted to "si".
# ...If "satan": is the prince of darkness - go from there only ....
Ahriman?

No - Karabog, Mahakala. These are NOT opposed to some god of light as is
Ahriman - or at least Ahriman was that LATER ON after the Persians got
stupid and dualized things.

Post by SOD of the CoE
# ...we know ALL ABOUT these things.
through your special powers (natural!) no doubt.

No - stop being an ass. I know ALL ABOUT those things as I know ALL ABOUT
what fucking CHORDS to put on songs after I hear them. YOU keep trying to
make something mystical. And I do not see a smiley there.

Post by SOD of the CoE
# It's looking into the ABYSS - only FOR REAL, Bobo.
Eastern mystics or Hermetic CMs.

Those are apparently just words to you. You have never DONE it.

Post by SOD of the CoE
# This stuff is NOT for everyone. We say it's potentially dangerous.
sure, power ascribed is usually couched with danger-zones.

Wrong. I never used to th ink it was dangerous until I saw people get hurt
from it, end up with medical bills. Truth does NOT set everyone free - and
that's the problem.

Post by SOD of the CoE
it can be seen in some spellcrafting subcultures, and in
the New Age neo-tantric culture too. what is "K yoga",
and where did you learn about it?

K yoga - kundalini yoga - learn about it? Seems to me I always just did it.
I didn't learn about it.

Post by SOD of the CoE
<SNIP>
#>#> that's where the Dark Flame could come in, to whisk the pesky
#>#> klippoths off the path before one, interweave such that their
#>#> presence would constitute no interruption of one's attentions.
#>#
#># Or easier still - REMOVE the conversation from their neighborhood
#># to where they can not see it. MUCH easier.
thus it depends on whether they are valuable for some reason.
#> I call that *fleeing from the adversary*, which is valuable when
#> it is more powerful or capable of disrupting your gig. when you
#> are the superior power, then their noise is not significant and
#> you will be able to ride over-top them.
#
# My method is what I call YIN. Your method is YANG. In real life,
# I do not go out of MY way to confront adversaries.
/ignore, killfile, email-filter, browser-filter just make sense.
it isn't confrontational, it's just rational. ;>

They don't always work.

Post by SOD of the CoE
# The very few times that a preacher type tried to preach to me,
# that person never came back twice. I gave him NO food. On some
# level, I think such people feel that they have just thrown their
# words, efforts and soul into the void where it can never come
# back out. That simple. All I did was YIN.
stifling such interactions is pretty easy, as is calmly
raising the level of respect in the interchange.

There was no interchange - you didn't grasp what I just said.

Post by SOD of the CoE
#> the use
#> of killfiles has been stigmatized by trolls who want your and
#> my attention. fall for it if you like, but complaining about
#> their disruption while falling for their lies is hamstringed.
#>
#> Doug-on Prod-ductions was attempting to point out this in a
#> very mean way to you. his point is sound, even if you ignore it.
#
# He should take his own advice,
his advice was that if one doesn't like something or someone,
then they could ignore them. he hasn't complained about you,
of which I'm aware. he just keeps insulting you. what that
means about your interest in interacting with him is unknown.
# since he posts all over the place to me when I've not said
# a word to him
oh good.
# - and no, I didn't read his stupid shit.
oh, ok, whew! blessed beast!
boboroshi at-sign satanservice.org: Satanic Outreach Director
Church of Euthanasia: http://www.churchofeuthanasia.org/
TOKUS WEBLINKS: http://dmoz.org/Bookmarks/B/boboroshi/
Ninth Scholar's Library (Satanism Archive): http://www.satanservice.org/

Ben Schultz

2005-01-27 22:48:51 UTC

Permalink

While I am a member of the Church of Satan, I am not, nor have I ever
been, a grotto master.

On Thu, 27 Jan 2005 21:53:54 GMT, "Tani Jantsang ©"

Post by Tani Jantsang Â©

Post by SOD of the CoE
# Ghetto or not. Ben is here.
apparently you cannot correctly identify CoS spokespeople.

If he's a member and grotto master, he probably CAN speak for them - all he
needs to do is ask.

"The two most common elements in the universe are hydrogen and stupidity. But not in that order."- Brian Pickrell

www.devilzown.com

Tani Jantsang ©

2005-01-28 00:08:57 UTC

Permalink

You applied for grotto way back in 2000, I remember that. Guess you never
got it.

Post by Ben Schultz
While I am a member of the Church of Satan, I am not, nor have I ever
been, a grotto master.
On Thu, 27 Jan 2005 21:53:54 GMT, "Tani Jantsang ©"

Post by Tani Jantsang Â©

Post by SOD of the CoE
# Ghetto or not. Ben is here.
apparently you cannot correctly identify CoS spokespeople.

If he's a member and grotto master, he probably CAN speak for them - all he
needs to do is ask.

"The two most common elements in the universe are hydrogen and stupidity.
But not in that order."- Brian Pickrell
www.devilzown.com

Ben Schultz

2005-01-28 15:03:33 UTC

Permalink

Yes, I did apply. And I have not heard from anyone.

However, I also no longer maintain the PO Box I had back then, so they
could very well have sent an approval. or denial letter.

On Fri, 28 Jan 2005 00:08:57 GMT, "Tani Jantsang ©"

Post by Tani Jantsang Â©
You applied for grotto way back in 2000, I remember that. Guess you never
got it.

Post by Ben Schultz
While I am a member of the Church of Satan, I am not, nor have I ever
been, a grotto master.
On Thu, 27 Jan 2005 21:53:54 GMT, "Tani Jantsang ©"

Post by Tani Jantsang Â©

Post by SOD of the CoE
# Ghetto or not. Ben is here.
apparently you cannot correctly identify CoS spokespeople.

If he's a member and grotto master, he probably CAN speak for them - all he
needs to do is ask.

"The two most common elements in the universe are hydrogen and stupidity.
But not in that order."- Brian Pickrell
www.devilzown.com

"The two most common elements in the universe are hydrogen and stupidity. But not in that order."- Brian Pickrell

www.devilzown.com

Tani Jantsang ©

2005-02-01 05:02:29 UTC

Permalink

Odd that, so then, they don't know where to mail you - and you no longer
care about having a grotto after being so strong headed about getting one.
OK.

Post by Ben Schultz
Yes, I did apply. And I have not heard from anyone.
However, I also no longer maintain the PO Box I had back then, so they
could very well have sent an approval. or denial letter.
On Fri, 28 Jan 2005 00:08:57 GMT, "Tani Jantsang ©"

Post by Tani Jantsang Â©
You applied for grotto way back in 2000, I remember that. Guess you never
got it.

Post by Ben Schultz
While I am a member of the Church of Satan, I am not, nor have I ever
been, a grotto master.
On Thu, 27 Jan 2005 21:53:54 GMT, "Tani Jantsang ©"

Post by Tani Jantsang Â©

Post by SOD of the CoE
# Ghetto or not. Ben is here.
apparently you cannot correctly identify CoS spokespeople.

If he's a member and grotto master, he probably CAN speak for them - all he
needs to do is ask.

"The two most common elements in the universe are hydrogen and stupidity.
But not in that order."- Brian Pickrell
www.devilzown.com

Ben Schultz

2005-02-01 06:01:14 UTC

Permalink

Not odd, TJ. I just have other things I'd rather spend my money on at
the moment. Maybe at some point in the future it'll be something I
have time for. Right now, there are other things that take up my time.

On Tue, 01 Feb 2005 05:02:29 GMT, "Tani Jantsang ©"

Post by Tani Jantsang Â©
Odd that, so then, they don't know where to mail you - and you no longer
care about having a grotto after being so strong headed about getting one.
OK.

Post by Tani Jantsang Â©
You applied for grotto way back in 2000, I remember that. Guess you never
got it.

Post by Ben Schultz
While I am a member of the Church of Satan, I am not, nor have I ever
been, a grotto master.
On Thu, 27 Jan 2005 21:53:54 GMT, "Tani Jantsang ©"

Post by Tani Jantsang Â©

Post by SOD of the CoE
# Ghetto or not. Ben is here.
apparently you cannot correctly identify CoS spokespeople.

If he's a member and grotto master, he probably CAN speak for them - all he
needs to do is ask.

"The two most common elements in the universe are hydrogen and stupidity.
But not in that order."- Brian Pickrell
www.devilzown.com

"The two most common elements in the universe are hydrogen and stupidity. But not in that order."- Brian Pickrell

www.devilzown.com

----== Posted via Newsfeeds.Com - Unlimited-Uncensored-Secure Usenet News==----
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SOD of the CoE

2005-01-28 00:41:02 UTC

Permalink

outstanding issues:

* when engaging in Neopagan revival, which period of
the god should be worshipped? optimizing from the most
powerful or beneficent (cf. Bhairava or Hecate) period
of the god is sensible, but what do "timelines" mean
to deities? don't deities have lifespans, just like
humans and change and develop and regress?

* what is an "anti-religion" and how can it be identified?
is this a phenomenon which is transcultural in some way?

* what is "the LHP" other than the Indian Vamamarg?
is its Western emergence a form of orientalism?

"Tani Jantsang ©" <***@SPAMpost.com>:
# "SOD of the CoE" <***@boboroshi> wrote in message
#> "Tani Jantsang ©" <***@SPAMpost.com>:
#># "SOD of the CoE" <***@boboroshi> wrote in message
#>#> "Tani Jantsang ©" <***@SPAMpost.com>:
#>#># bobo:

#>#># ...you, Cat and I seem to agree on what their satanism arose
#> ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
#>#># out of (Christianity)
#>
#> I'm not sure this is true. I am not saying that you and sri catyananda
#> do not agree. she's said similar things before on the subject.
#> perhaps you agree that there is no resonance amongst 'Satanisms'.
#>
#>#># and about the aesthetic or cultural values he went for (40s).
#>
#> seems obvious enough, as any Satanist probably would.
#
# I lost the context here; subject is too old.

a good reason to remain brief.

# Any satanist would go for 40s cultural values?

for their preferred values/context/environment. cf. LaVey
on 'complete environments' in his 5-Point Plan. I thought
you were completely versed in CoS theology and expression.

#>#> see my posts in response to "si" recently. I don't think you and
#>#> I are completely aligned with regard to that.
#>#
#># Wrong. I 100% agree that LaVeyan satanism comes from Christianity.
#>
#> not sure to what "Wrong" refers. even LaVey said that his Satanism
#> emerged from Christian context. what's your point? you think
#> that LaVey and his Council of Nine believed that
#>
#> 1) they had been raised Christian?
#> or that 2) they were practicing a Christian faith?
#
# Imo, inversion Christian faith is the same as Christian faith. Two sides of
# the same identical coin. They have not escaped that coin. I never changed
# my stance on that.

no answer to my question. either you don't understand it or
don't think it valuably asked. I'll assume that you do not
believe that they thought they were raised Christians,
but that you DO believe, based on your own standards,
undisclosed, that they were practicing Christians. your
criteria are not stated, and you do not at this time
make much sense to me.

#> I don't. if you do....
#
# Given for DDoc material explaining ASL's dark force in nature.

which is not really Christian. thus my confusion. maybe it is
some 'guff' throwback to Judaism. you're certainly not saying.

#> my recall is that LaVey specifies Satanism's transcultural nature
#> and does not limit it *to* Christianity in its birthing.
#
# His [by you] limiting it to Christianity is due to his
# ignorance of anything OTHER THAN Christianity on which
# to rag upon.

he compares his transcultural Satanism w/ Yezidis and others.
I have substantiated this as regards the Virosaivite saints.
few if any have actually done more than diss LaVey as some
kind of Christian without standards by which to assess this.
everything I can find by the man substantiates and accords
with his latest expression that it is so transcultural.

disputing it smacks of sour grapes, especially given the
very good sociological studies of the Church of Satan
early on, and the later clear expression in his books
(apparently with Cloven Hoof reprints). you're not going
to be quoting his materials, since you disagree with him,
and I won't bother defending him against your vacuity of
substance here.

#> apparently
#> you don't see cross-cultural symptoms. do you have reason to
#> question the existence of these types of 'anti-religion'?
#> or that LaVey's doesn't constitute a variety of these?
#
# He stands for a type of anti religion

my contention, and his, is that, having confirmed this, it
is not of the same character as Christianity and Setianism,
primarily because it *isn't* religion, it is primarily a type
of *anti*-religion (which grew up in a Christian context and
may well grow from within others).

that you and others may wish to slot it as part of that
from which it grew seems a sectarian insult, and, from what
I can see, not convincing in the slightest. do you have some
kind of rationale for your assertion? what is your reasoning
for this other than that you don't like 'em?

# - one religion in particular, listing their "sins" and
# all that. It's obvious.

addressed previously. the issue was never whether Satanism
grew up within Christianity (on that everyone is agreed),
but whether there are other instances of anti-religion
elsewhere. you apparently believe that there are not.

#># I regard it as a subset of Christianity.
#>
#> I call 'em 'Great Martyrdom Cult' examples. maybe you think
#> along similar lines. is Set mortal? if not, then why not?

how will we discern amongst the many Sets? the fact that
there are so many is again indicative of the variability of
Neopaganism and religious mythos. we might ask why Jews
didn't worship the Yah-Ashera mated pair any more, too.
some Neopagans have revived that worship, of course.

#> are stories that link him with his brother Osiris in ever-
#> lasting everdying-rebirthing combat from some particular
#> *type* of Egyptian religion? if so, which kind and how much
#> do they overlap with modern Setianism? I'd be inclined to
#> conclude that a transcultural phenomenon (if LaVey is correct)
#> is *less* like Christianity than Setianism is like Judaism,
#> which Christianity is trying to subsume, overwhelm, take over.
#
# Set VERSUS Osiris is a much later development in the
# Egyptian Set religion.

oh really? when did the "Egyptian Set religion" happen? why take
the earlier rather than the later developments as legitimate now?
did not the Jews take their later Yah and the Muslims the later Al
to worship? why not take the later Set too? something's fishy. ;>

# It was also on and off with that myth.

right, another similarity between Setianism and Christianity.

#># I do not agree that TOSetianism comes from it at all since
#># it's all Egyptian (which is not from Xianity or related to
#># Judeo Christianity at all)....
#>
#> but that's what seems so weird, Tani. people say stuff like
#> this, but a great deal of emphasis IS placed upon Egypt as
#> a school and initiation-center of Moses or Moshe. this guy
#> is supposed to have been the *author* of the Big Jewish 5
#> *scripture* (Pentateuch), and the Christians are all hot to
#> make it *their* scripture too. does "Coming Forth by Day"
#> ('The Egyptian Book of the Dead'?) have implications for Jews?
#> can we pin the Egyptian god tail on the Jewish Yahweh? if not,
#> are they contemporaneous at points? are their worship-targets
#> ever immortal enemies or something, the way that Set *is*
#> paired with Osiris (precursive dying gods before Christianity)?
#
# The Set worship in Egypt long predates contact with Jews there.
# It long predates Moses (Moshe) the priest of Akhnaton.

the current Neopagan revival of Set worship does not predate
contact with Jews. to my knowledge there is no direct
connection between Aquino and Egyptians. Aquino isn't Egyptian
and has no societal initiation from Egyptians, does he?
this primarily resembles Crowley's faux-Egyptianist revival
(faux because later Egyptology displayed the batch of false
names from "the gods" he supposedly contacted -- one might
as well ask about the Diana and Lucifer pair which might
be contacted by Wiccans who love the "Aradia, Gospel of the
Witches" construct, thereafter considering the Necronomicon).

#> the Hermetics regard Egypt as the homeland of the Great
#> Thrice Hermes-Mercurio who was their Big Magician (tales).
#> Set is a type of improvement on the efforts of the Golden
#> Dawn and LaVey (IFF Christian and not transcultural).
#
# I don't think so.

unclear. apparently you don't think that Satanism is trans-
cultural, but you have given no reason to draw this conclusion
other than your obvious prejudice against the CoS and your
preferences for the ToS (and given your history, understandable).

#> by tapping directly into the Judeo-Christian magic central,
#> and aligning with a specific cultural adversary to Jews in
#> particular (compare Nazis, with whom you say he's been
#> unfairly associated, another anti-Jewish faction), this is
#> perhaps not Christian, but something akin to it (theistic
#> religion from the Middle-East worshipping a particular god).
#
# They don't focus on adversarialism against Jews there.

thanks.

# That event happened thousands of years later than the first
# Set worship in Egypt.

selective Neopaganism. this is also not uncommon,
but it is not the way of Satanism as practiced by LaVey.

# Jews are also not the only "hapiru" they kicked out....

#> LaVey described his Satanism as transcultural, and therefore

# Don't care what he described.

it is relevant to a consideration of its possibility. that you
aren't even interested in his expression appears your bias.

# He got white males for the most part in his org.
# That is WHO it called out to.

irrelevant to the transcultural existence of this anti-religion.

#> something which he had *discovered* amidst Christianity (not
#> too difficult as the dualism is dissected in symbolic glory
#> though millennia and a Satanist has much to work with).
#> thus Satanism (as Satan) appears in many valences, Setianism
#> bolding its ecclesia over time into an Egyptian obelisk.

# There are many other documents, doctrines, other than Book
# of Coming Forth by Night in that org....

is this relevant in some way? I don't follow your assertion
or why you bother to make it.

#> *Setianism* and Christianity are, in this manner, more
#> completely adversaries (in a PERSONAL sense, by history),
#
# Setianism would be as adverse to Christianity as is Islam
# today....

another good comparison, since Islam is a *competitor*
cult with Christianity. Setianism also appears to be so.

# Egypt was extremely tolerant of other religions.

apparently at points it was not. you mentioned some of these
points in history immediately above, unless Set worship was
coming from outside of Egypt somehow.

#> whereas Satanism is just a projected drapery for what of
#> its many adversaries worried the Christians most which
#> might be inverted, turned against it, and glorified.
#>
#> Setianism *is* religiously-exclusive, a type of deism with
#> its own theology, while Satanism tends toward the *anti*-
#> religious atheistic,
#
# Agree.

if you agree with this, then you should also agree as to how
Setianism is more alike to Christianity than is Satanism.
you claim that you don't agree with this latter assessment,
but don't explain how you draw different conclusions,
apparently because you are contrasting what you think of as
religions, rather than comparing religions as a group against
an anti-religion.

#> or of great variety in spirit-engagement,
#> eradicating the need for theology on an altar of realism and
#> epicurean safeguards (evading superficial ghost-worlds).
#>
#> of COURSE Satanism comes out of Christianity, like a
#> FRANKENSTEIN monster, the Bogey that got away from the poor
#> Christians (after the witches they burned and hanged) who
#> now watch it paraded about before them while they tremble
#> and shake in their shoes, warning all the police agencies.
#>
#> Setianism is against Christianity as a direct competitor
#> to *Judaism* (which Christianity hopes to completely engulf
#> and subsume).
#
# The Christians will NEVER engulf and subsume the Jews....

non-sequitur. it was the hope that was the point, not the
actuality. you also ignored my text above.

#> Setianism is at *odds* with Judaism, isn't it?
#> the priesthoods don't *ever* intersect, do they?
#
# I don't know....

then let me tell you, because I spoke with HP Aquino on the
matter in alt.satanism, and unless they changed their policy
they do not allow bi-membership in religious orgs other than
the ToS for those beyond initial levels. at some point one
must decide *between* Setianism and other religious
involvement.

this is not true for Satanism to my knowledge.

# - Setianism is not about Judaism - there are Jews in high
# positions in the TOS....

practicing Jews who are members of synagogues or some other
Jewish religious org? I doubt this very strongly.

# - best to ask them about it! I really don't know.

that seems clear.

#> at cosmological
#> odds with one another, unless the Setians go to C.G. Jung and
#> beg and plead for help, their theology originates in *1* place
#> and is in this way inferior to the more inclusive vision of LaVey,
#> and the special pleading enlightenment offered by the CoE.

no comment on this either. you don't seem truly interested.

#>#> I'm more enamoured
#>#> of certain expressions elsewhere by LaVey on the matter of the
#>#> transcultural existence of Satanism, its name differing within
#>#> ever culture it may appear.
#>
#> this disputes your notion that Satanism is a type of Christianity
#> (because it erupts within several systems, as portrayed by LaVey
#> and others; Barton's Quotations has something to this effect :>).
#>
#># The problem is that some cultures were LHP cultures....
#>
#> unimportant as far as I know. if LHP is anti-cultural,
#> this complicates the nature of 'LHP culture'.
#
# No, LHP is not anti cultural at all....

apparently as it derives from your culture. I'm talking about
Indians, from whom the Vamamarg seems to originate. if you
have some actual, continual lineages that you are talking
about, please identify them, thanks.

#> inasmuch as
#>
#> Chaos > Vamamarga > Satanism > Thelema
#> anti anti anti anti
#> order culture religion corporation
#>
#> what is Vamamarga's relation to culture, OTHER than that of negation?
#> does it not runs *against* cultural standards? perhaps crude reflections
#> or presages, heralds, are seen in orientalist Satanism outbreaks.
#
# That is only one definition of LHP - imo a wrongly superficial one.

(sarcasm)
sure, just its *original* meaning. what do Indians know?(/sarcasm).

did you have something beyond your say-so or genetics
which substantiates your contention here?

#># ...our DEITY is the BLACK GOD OF TRANSCENDENT AWARENESS....
#>
#> doesn't sound like Satan or some being that Christians mistook
#> to *be* Satan (aside from your ignorant Christian friends who
#> didn't know any better or who are smitten with devil-hatred).
#
# To you it doesn't. To Foster Mahakala certainly DID sound
# like it.

freaked Christians are good sources on such matters? hm...

#># ...The nature we are is NOMADIC....
#>
#> you have multiple-dwellings from which you're posting?

# In the past I'd have had that. I mean in the inner sense.

means nothing to me. elaborate if you like.

#># ...the Vajra came from that "Great Blackness", it's in us - but
#># it's more or less samsaric. ONLY the BLACK GOD is real - aka the
#># Void.
#>
#> fun.
#
# I think the problem is you just don't understand what I'm
# saying here - and probably becauase you never experienced it.

another problem is that I also doubt your assertions and do not
take them at face value. I think you make shit up and switch
your stories through time in order to self-aggrandize.

#>#> I'd go further and suggest that only within certain
#>#> dualistic, condemnatory cultures does it make sense.

#> ...I'm thinking of it in terms of LaVeyan Satanism, not
#> Sat-Tan(i)-ism, and not ToSetianism. reactionary developments
#> such as LaVey describes seem predisposed to grapple with
#> condemnatory, Blood Libel rhetoric and propaganda, using
#> the Bogey in sociopolitical ju-jutsu.

# ... Sat Tanism

where is this? you invent a folk etymology and suddently
a whole "ism" exists? who comprises this Sat Tanism?

# is OUTSIDE of these religious dualities and their
# adversaries....

no doubt. you can have it be whatever you want it to.

<other bits about Sat Tani-ism omitted, non-sequitur>

#>#># dress up like one, but you aren't one. It's EXACTLY like the
#>#># wigger phenomena which makes me wonder why he hated that so much.
#>#>
#>#> some suggest that this is all that there IS to Satanism, of course.
#>#> cf. GMC materials elsewhere posted to "si".
#>#
#># ...If "satan": is the prince of darkness - go from there only ....
#>
#> Ahriman?
#
# No - Karabog, Mahakala....

doesn't fit with LaVeyan Satanism or with precedents
to anti-religion from Blood Libel projections.

# These are NOT opposed to some god of light as is
# Ahriman - or at least Ahriman was that LATER ON
# after the Persians got stupid and dualized things.

right, the anti-God. that's the primary incidence of
'Satan'. refer to academics of religion and the history
of concepts such as the personification of evil (such
as JBRussell, who is quite clear on the matter and
pretty rough on Setians/Satanists).

#># It's looking into the ABYSS - only FOR REAL, Bobo.
#>
#> Eastern mystics or Hermetic CMs.
#
# Those are apparently just words to you....

I'm pointing out their overlapping usage.

#># This stuff is NOT for everyone. We say it's potentially
#># dangerous.
#>
#> sure, power ascribed is usually couched with danger-zones.
#
# Wrong.

I've run across many instances of it and pointed them out
below. why you don't acknowledge them or dispute them
while cotending that I am wrong is irrational. you don't
want to be categorized as behaving within a human Herd.

# I never used to th ink it was dangerous until I saw
# people get hurt from it, end up with medical bills....

a typical story of the type I'm talking about, yes.

#> it can be seen in some spellcrafting subcultures, and in
#> the New Age neo-tantric culture too. what is "K yoga",
#> and where did you learn about it?
#
# K yoga - kundalini yoga - learn about it? Seems to me
# I always just did it. I didn't learn about it.

not a word about what it is. apparently you have no
connections with anything social by the name and are
merely ascribing the name to something you experience.
thanks for your candidness. where I come from that is
called "orientalism", and it is considered suspect,
even culturally-disrespectful (on account of its
appropriative quality and competition for attention).

#>#>#> that's where the Dark Flame could come in, to whisk the pesky
#>#>#> klippoths off the path before one, interweave such that their
#>#>#> presence would constitute no interruption of one's attentions.
#>#>#
#>#># Or easier still - REMOVE the conversation from their neighborhood
#>#># to where they can not see it. MUCH easier.
#>
#> thus it depends on whether they are valuable for some reason.
#>
#>#> I call that *fleeing from the adversary*, which is valuable when
#>#> it is more powerful or capable of disrupting your gig. when you
#>#> are the superior power, then their noise is not significant and
#>#> you will be able to ride over-top them.
#>#
#># My method is what I call YIN. Your method is YANG. In real life,
#># I do not go out of MY way to confront adversaries.
#>
#> /ignore, killfile, email-filter, browser-filter just make sense.
#> it isn't confrontational, it's just rational. ;>
#
# They don't always work.

the Dark Flame can't make them work? this Dark Flame and all the
powers you're talking about don't sound very practically helpful.
would you say that their primary result is to have you feel good?

boboroshi at-sign satanservice.org: Satanic Outreach Director
Church of Euthanasia: http://www.churchofeuthanasia.org/
TOKUS WEBLINKS: http://dmoz.org/Bookmarks/B/boboroshi/
Ninth Scholar's Library (Satanism Archive): http://www.satanservice.org/

Dagon Productions

2005-01-29 10:53:22 UTC

Permalink

Post by SOD of the CoE
#>
#> /ignore, killfile, email-filter, browser-filter just make sense.
#> it isn't confrontational, it's just rational. ;>
#
# They don't always work.
the Dark Flame can't make them work? this Dark Flame and all the
powers you're talking about don't sound very practically helpful.
would you say that their primary result is to have you feel good?

Bwahahahahahahahaaa!

-Douglas

--
**********************************************
Dagon Productions
Chaos Magick & Occult books
http://www.dagonproductions.com
***@dagonproductions.com

Tani Jantsang ©

2005-02-01 00:53:04 UTC

Permalink

Post by SOD of the CoE
* when engaging in Neopagan revival, which period of
the god should be worshipped? optimizing from the most
powerful or beneficent (cf. Bhairava or Hecate) period
of the god is sensible, but what do "timelines" mean
to deities? don't deities have lifespans, just like
humans and change and develop and regress?
* what is an "anti-religion" and how can it be identified?
is this a phenomenon which is transcultural in some way?
* what is "the LHP" other than the Indian Vamamarg?
is its Western emergence a form of orientalism?
#>#># ...you, Cat and I seem to agree on what their satanism arose
#> ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
#>#># out of (Christianity)
#>
#> I'm not sure this is true. I am not saying that you and sri catyananda
#> do not agree. she's said similar things before on the subject.
#> perhaps you agree that there is no resonance amongst 'Satanisms'.
#>
#>#># and about the aesthetic or cultural values he went for (40s).
#>
#> seems obvious enough, as any Satanist probably would.
#
# I lost the context here; subject is too old.
a good reason to remain brief.
# Any satanist would go for 40s cultural values?
for their preferred values/context/environment. cf. LaVey
on 'complete environments' in his 5-Point Plan. I thought
you were completely versed in CoS theology and expression.

Pretty much, but I can't give you chapter and verse quotes. Making robots
is not 40s - it's pretty damned modern and Trekkie.

Post by SOD of the CoE
#>#> see my posts in response to "si" recently. I don't think you and
#>#> I are completely aligned with regard to that.
#>#
#># Wrong. I 100% agree that LaVeyan satanism comes from Christianity.
#>
#> not sure to what "Wrong" refers. even LaVey said that his Satanism
#> emerged from Christian context. what's your point? you think
#> that LaVey and his Council of Nine believed that
#>
#> 1) they had been raised Christian?
#> or that 2) they were practicing a Christian faith?
#
# Imo, inversion Christian faith is the same as Christian faith. Two sides of
# the same identical coin. They have not escaped that coin. I never changed
# my stance on that.
no answer to my question. either you don't understand it or
don't think it valuably asked. I'll assume that you do not
believe that they thought they were raised Christians,
but that you DO believe, based on your own standards,
undisclosed, that they were practicing Christians. your
criteria are not stated, and you do not at this time
make much sense to me.

I'm not sure what your question is. I see them as "Cultural Christians"
Bobo - I can't BUT see them as that - since they seem to be that when
interacting with them. It's not hard to tell. Cultural Jews DO NOT act
that way - AT ALL, whether they are practicing religious Jews or atheists -
they act like JEWS still. They believe they are "born" Satanists - yet I
don't see that at all. They are culturally christian with either christian
or inverted christian values.

Post by SOD of the CoE
#> I don't. if you do....
#
# Given for DDoc material explaining ASL's dark force in nature.
which is not really Christian. thus my confusion. maybe it is
some 'guff' throwback to Judaism. you're certainly not saying.

No, no judaism in DDocs either. I explained something that never was
explained to him before - and he understood it and liked it. LaVey obviously
wrote most of his stuff TO and FOR cultural christians. That's pretty much
most of what goes for his stuff - plue they are males and white people, not
black christians - for the most part.

Post by SOD of the CoE
#> my recall is that LaVey specifies Satanism's transcultural nature
#> and does not limit it *to* Christianity in its birthing.
#
# His [by you] limiting it to Christianity is due to his
# ignorance of anything OTHER THAN Christianity on which
# to rag upon.
he compares his transcultural Satanism w/ Yezidis and others.

He knew nothing about Yezidis. Yezidis don't go listing christian sins and
then inverting them. They are a people with their own religion - they are
not an ANTI religion at all.

Post by SOD of the CoE
I have substantiated this as regards the Virosaivite saints.
few if any have actually done more than diss LaVey as some
kind of Christian without standards by which to assess this.
everything I can find by the man substantiates and accords
with his latest expression that it is so transcultural.
disputing it smacks of sour grapes, especially given the
very good sociological studies of the Church of Satan
early on, and the later clear expression in his books
(apparently with Cloven Hoof reprints). you're not going
to be quoting his materials, since you disagree with him,
and I won't bother defending him against your vacuity of
substance here.

He never wrote anything outside of the Christian Cultural American society,
Bobo. He wrote it FOR Americans, pretty much - and many foreign people even
from Europe have noticed this. Most sociological studies of the COS define
it as inversion Christianity. What do you think it is? Something else?
What did he have to SAY to Islamics? to Blacks? to my culture? NOTHING.
For shit's sakes, the only reason I even ever contacted one of them was
cause I was asked to do a favor and GIVE them something. Otherwise, I'd
never have interacted with any of them.

Post by SOD of the CoE
#> apparently
#> you don't see cross-cultural symptoms. do you have reason to
#> question the existence of these types of 'anti-religion'?
#> or that LaVey's doesn't constitute a variety of these?
#
# He stands for a type of anti religion
my contention, and his, is that, having confirmed this, it
is not of the same character as Christianity and Setianism,
primarily because it *isn't* religion, it is primarily a type
of *anti*-religion (which grew up in a Christian context and
may well grow from within others).

Atheism is anti religion - ALL religion - and it speaks to all religion.
CoSatanism speaks to Christians.

Post by SOD of the CoE
that you and others may wish to slot it as part of that
from which it grew seems a sectarian insult, and, from what
I can see, not convincing in the slightest. do you have some
kind of rationale for your assertion? what is your reasoning
for this other than that you don't like 'em?
# - one religion in particular, listing their "sins" and
# all that. It's obvious.
addressed previously. the issue was never whether Satanism
grew up within Christianity (on that everyone is agreed),
but whether there are other instances of anti-religion
elsewhere. you apparently believe that there are not.

I don't see any other kind of anti religion in his writings since he didn't
know enough about OTHER religions. He liked what he saw of the DDocs - and
that was just concrete street talk pure English, no frills Kargyupa, Bobo.
Obviously, he never heard of that. That is RELIGION, in case you didn't
know that. When he speaks about dark force, dark forces, what the fuck is
that? NOT religion? It's religion! Period. Shiva, listed as some devil
name, is not a devil in India. Shiva-ism is the OLDEST religion there and
at one time the ONLY religion there.

Post by SOD of the CoE
#># I regard it as a subset of Christianity.
#>
#> I call 'em 'Great Martyrdom Cult' examples. maybe you think
#> along similar lines. is Set mortal? if not, then why not?
how will we discern amongst the many Sets? the fact that
there are so many is again indicative of the variability of
Neopaganism and religious mythos. we might ask why Jews
didn't worship the Yah-Ashera mated pair any more, too.
some Neopagans have revived that worship, of course.

So have some Jews - but it's not easy to find out what Jews do amongst
themselves - they keep it to themselves most of the time. Jeff's father was
a Serpent venereting Ophite - the central candle in HIS Menora represented
Wednesday and the Serpent. Jeff's mother used to call him a devil
worshiper - but that NEVER got outside of their own people until Jeff
blabbed it to us.

Post by SOD of the CoE
#> are stories that link him with his brother Osiris in ever-
#> lasting everdying-rebirthing combat from some particular
#> *type* of Egyptian religion? if so, which kind and how much
#> do they overlap with modern Setianism? I'd be inclined to
#> conclude that a transcultural phenomenon (if LaVey is correct)
#> is *less* like Christianity than Setianism is like Judaism,
#> which Christianity is trying to subsume, overwhelm, take over.
#
# Set VERSUS Osiris is a much later development in the
# Egyptian Set religion.
oh really? when did the "Egyptian Set religion" happen? why take
the earlier rather than the later developments as legitimate now?

Because the later develoments really reflect two cultures clashing with each
other in Egypt. It didn't really reflect anything religions at all.

Post by SOD of the CoE
did not the Jews take their later Yah and the Muslims the later Al
to worship? why not take the later Set too? something's fishy. ;>
# It was also on and off with that myth.
right, another similarity between Setianism and Christianity.
#># I do not agree that TOSetianism comes from it at all since
#># it's all Egyptian (which is not from Xianity or related to
#># Judeo Christianity at all)....
#>
#> but that's what seems so weird, Tani. people say stuff like
#> this, but a great deal of emphasis IS placed upon Egypt as
#> a school and initiation-center of Moses or Moshe. this guy
#> is supposed to have been the *author* of the Big Jewish 5
#> *scripture* (Pentateuch), and the Christians are all hot to
#> make it *their* scripture too. does "Coming Forth by Day"
#> ('The Egyptian Book of the Dead'?) have implications for Jews?
#> can we pin the Egyptian god tail on the Jewish Yahweh? if not,
#> are they contemporaneous at points?

Set is not Yahway - but I'd say the two cultures intersected when Jews lived
in Egypt and then got kicked out and wrote a whole BIG epic about it. They
MAY have demonized Set - that would be par for the course back then.

are their worship-targets

Post by SOD of the CoE
#> ever immortal enemies or something, the way that Set *is*
#> paired with Osiris (precursive dying gods before Christianity)?
#
# The Set worship in Egypt long predates contact with Jews there.
# It long predates Moses (Moshe) the priest of Akhnaton.
the current Neopagan revival of Set worship does not predate
contact with Jews. to my knowledge there is no direct
connection between Aquino and Egyptians. Aquino isn't Egyptian
and has no societal initiation from Egyptians, does he?

You'd have to ask him - he MIGHT. Who knows. You confuse when you say
"current neo pagan revival of Set worship." Do you mean the ToSet?
Neopagan? ToSet has extensive research on all things legitmatly Egyptian -
that is, NOT Greek-influenced-hearsay about Egyptian things - which turned
out to be so wrong that it's a joke.

Post by SOD of the CoE
this primarily resembles Crowley's faux-Egyptianist revival
(faux because later Egyptology displayed the batch of false
names from "the gods" he supposedly contacted -- one might
as well ask about the Diana and Lucifer pair which might
be contacted by Wiccans who love the "Aradia, Gospel of the
Witches" construct, thereafter considering the Necronomicon).

Well, I think that the Jews got the idea that STN was some kind of adversary
or liar from a Persian inversion of the Hindu concept of the SAT - which
also means TRUTH, not just Being.

Post by SOD of the CoE
#> the Hermetics regard Egypt as the homeland of the Great
#> Thrice Hermes-Mercurio who was their Big Magician (tales).
#> Set is a type of improvement on the efforts of the Golden
#> Dawn and LaVey (IFF Christian and not transcultural).
#
# I don't think so.
unclear. apparently you don't think that Satanism is trans-
cultural, but you have given no reason to draw this conclusion
other than your obvious prejudice against the CoS and your
preferences for the ToS (and given your history, understandable).

On the contrary. HOW does the COS "talk" to Islamic people? Or Shamanic or
Lamaist? It most certainly doesn't talk to us at all. I don't "prefer" the
TOS over the COS. I prefer the SR over anything. I don't think COS
satanism is transcultural because it provably appeals mostly to white,
culturally christian males! SR doesn't appeal to such a narrow audience at
all. I can't speak for the TOS at all - I just don't know WHO they appeal
to. But I do know that they certainly are NOT about what P and P claimed
they were about because I saw some of it with my own eyes. Egyptian things
do not "say" anything to me, considering my own cultural background. I just
don't have a feel for any of the western religions - or anything pop occult
either. I don't even TALK religion in real life to ANYONE. Yet here I am,
talking to you about it. UGH.

Post by SOD of the CoE
#> by tapping directly into the Judeo-Christian magic central,
#> and aligning with a specific cultural adversary to Jews in
#> particular (compare Nazis, with whom you say he's been
#> unfairly associated, another anti-Jewish faction), this is
#> perhaps not Christian, but something akin to it (theistic
#> religion from the Middle-East worshipping a particular god).
#
# They don't focus on adversarialism against Jews there.
thanks.
# That event happened thousands of years later than the first
# Set worship in Egypt.
selective Neopaganism. this is also not uncommon,
but it is not the way of Satanism as practiced by LaVey.
# Jews are also not the only "hapiru" they kicked out....
#> LaVey described his Satanism as transcultural, and therefore
# Don't care what he described.
it is relevant to a consideration of its possibility. that you
aren't even interested in his expression appears your bias.

No bias at all. MOST of the people that "heard" LaVey's message were white,
culturally christian males. PERIOD. That is WHO it appealed to, Bobo. Not
only that, but from many Europeans, they said it seemed as if LaVey was
writing TO American people. I see Lavey as a reactionary that is purely the
product of AMERICANISM and the 60s. Even his social commentary doesn't
compute outside of America, especially to non-whites. That's not a biased
statement - I heard that myself for years within the COS itself.

Post by SOD of the CoE
# He got white males for the most part in his org.
# That is WHO it called out to.
irrelevant to the transcultural existence of this anti-religion.

He may have believed it was transcultural - but if it was, then it would
have called out to a lot more people than white culturally christian males.

Post by SOD of the CoE
#> something which he had *discovered* amidst Christianity (not
#> too difficult as the dualism is dissected in symbolic glory
#> though millennia and a Satanist has much to work with).
#> thus Satanism (as Satan) appears in many valences, Setianism
#> bolding its ecclesia over time into an Egyptian obelisk.
# There are many other documents, doctrines, other than Book
# of Coming Forth by Night in that org....
is this relevant in some way? I don't follow your assertion
or why you bother to make it.

Yes, it's relevant.

Post by SOD of the CoE
#> *Setianism* and Christianity are, in this manner, more
#> completely adversaries (in a PERSONAL sense, by history),
#
# Setianism would be as adverse to Christianity as is Islam
# today....
another good comparison, since Islam is a *competitor*
cult with Christianity. Setianism also appears to be so.
# Egypt was extremely tolerant of other religions.
apparently at points it was not. you mentioned some of these
points in history immediately above, unless Set worship was
coming from outside of Egypt somehow.

Only one point in time was Egypt ruined by a tyrant - the time of Akhneton.

Post by SOD of the CoE
#> whereas Satanism is just a projected drapery for what of
#> its many adversaries worried the Christians most which
#> might be inverted, turned against it, and glorified.
#>
#> Setianism *is* religiously-exclusive, a type of deism with
#> its own theology, while Satanism tends toward the *anti*-
#> religious atheistic,
#
# Agree.
if you agree with this, then you should also agree as to how
Setianism is more alike to Christianity than is Satanism.
you claim that you don't agree with this latter assessment,
but don't explain how you draw different conclusions,
apparently because you are contrasting what you think of as
religions, rather than comparing religions as a group against
an anti-religion.

Setianism and Christianity are both religions, yes. But they are not akin
to each other at all. Whereas LaVey's anti-religionism is very much like -
heh, WHITE MALE culturally christian ATHEISM. You are looking at the
superficial. I'm looking at the inner, the WHO. White culturally christian
males - whether they "become" LaVeyans or Atheists - they both are STILL
white culturally christian males. They are NOTHING LIKE atheistis Jews -
and neither J or C are like us.

Post by SOD of the CoE
#> or of great variety in spirit-engagement,
#> eradicating the need for theology on an altar of realism and
#> epicurean safeguards (evading superficial ghost-worlds).
#>
#> of COURSE Satanism comes out of Christianity, like a
#> FRANKENSTEIN monster, the Bogey that got away from the poor
#> Christians (after the witches they burned and hanged) who
#> now watch it paraded about before them while they tremble
#> and shake in their shoes, warning all the police agencies.
#>
#> Setianism is against Christianity as a direct competitor
#> to *Judaism* (which Christianity hopes to completely engulf
#> and subsume).
#
# The Christians will NEVER engulf and subsume the Jews....
non-sequitur. it was the hope that was the point, not the
actuality. you also ignored my text above.

Your entire paradigm is alien to my paradigm on this subject, and while I
understand YOU - you are having a hard time understanding ME. I don't care
what's standing in front of me yabbering about what religion he is. If it's
a white CULTURALLY christian male, I'm gonna know it's NOT a Jew. NOT a
Moslem. Got it? I can 99% tell if a person is a Jew spot on - all they
have to do is talk to me in person for about 5 minutes. Lots of people can
tell. At the dance club, female friend there had new boyfriend. We talked
about the club, dancing, about 10 minutes. I asked him "Are you a Moslem"
HE WAS, he said he's from Islamic background, but personally has no
religion - he also spoke perfect English and looked like he could be Italian
or something like that. How did I know? Familiarity with HANGING OUT with
these people - and I do not mean there was any kind of religion talk or any
kind of obvious hints.

Post by SOD of the CoE
#> Setianism is at *odds* with Judaism, isn't it?
#> the priesthoods don't *ever* intersect, do they?
#
# I don't know....
then let me tell you, because I spoke with HP Aquino on the
matter in alt.satanism, and unless they changed their policy
they do not allow bi-membership in religious orgs other than
the ToS for those beyond initial levels. at some point one
must decide *between* Setianism and other religious
involvement.
this is not true for Satanism to my knowledge.
# - Setianism is not about Judaism - there are Jews in high
# positions in the TOS....
practicing Jews who are members of synagogues or some other
Jewish religious org? I doubt this very strongly.

I don't know. The word Jew is very often used by Jews to define their
ethnic group. So... I doubt they are BOTH Setian and Jewish-religion. Cat
said she was Jewish. Ok then, is she a PRACTICING Jew-religion? I doubt
she is, yet she said she was Jewish.

Post by SOD of the CoE
# - best to ask them about it! I really don't know.
that seems clear.
#> at cosmological
#> odds with one another, unless the Setians go to C.G. Jung and
#> beg and plead for help, their theology originates in *1* place
#> and is in this way inferior to the more inclusive vision of LaVey,
#> and the special pleading enlightenment offered by the CoE.
no comment on this either. you don't seem truly interested.
#>#> I'm more enamoured
#>#> of certain expressions elsewhere by LaVey on the matter of the
#>#> transcultural existence of Satanism, its name differing within
#>#> ever culture it may appear.
#>
#> this disputes your notion that Satanism is a type of Christianity
#> (because it erupts within several systems, as portrayed by LaVey
#> and others; Barton's Quotations has something to this effect :>).
#>
#># The problem is that some cultures were LHP cultures....
#>
#> unimportant as far as I know. if LHP is anti-cultural,
#> this complicates the nature of 'LHP culture'.
#
# No, LHP is not anti cultural at all....
apparently as it derives from your culture. I'm talking about
Indians, from whom the Vamamarg seems to originate. if you
have some actual, continual lineages that you are talking
about, please identify them, thanks.

I know how people in India define it. We do NOT define it as such at all,
right. I don't care about anti-cultural shit. I call that POLITICS, not
religion. What the fuck was the ANTI religion way back in India when
Shiva-ite was the ONLY religion? There was none. When someone invents
crazy stupid taboos - people tend to want to break them. Drugs are illegal
in the USA. So then, these so-called LHP satanists, do they all use drugs
in order to break the taboo/law? No, they do not. Do they steal? Murder
people? Mug people? Do they ADVOCATE doing it? Why not? Heh, black
rappers advocate it :)

Post by SOD of the CoE
#> inasmuch as
#>
#> Chaos > Vamamarga > Satanism > Thelema
#> anti anti anti anti
#> order culture religion corporation
#>
#> what is Vamamarga's relation to culture, OTHER than that of negation?
#> does it not runs *against* cultural standards? perhaps crude reflections
#> or presages, heralds, are seen in orientalist Satanism outbreaks.
#
# That is only one definition of LHP - imo a wrongly superficial one.
(sarcasm)
sure, just its *original* meaning. what do Indians know?(/sarcasm).

No, it's not its original meaning. dark/yin light/yang. Original meaning.
There was NO anti when Shiva-ism was the ONLY religion there.

Post by SOD of the CoE
did you have something beyond your say-so or genetics
which substantiates your contention here?
#># ...our DEITY is the BLACK GOD OF TRANSCENDENT AWARENESS....
#>
#> doesn't sound like Satan or some being that Christians mistook
#> to *be* Satan (aside from your ignorant Christian friends who
#> didn't know any better or who are smitten with devil-hatred).
#
# To you it doesn't. To Foster Mahakala certainly DID sound
# like it.
freaked Christians are good sources on such matters? hm...

Foster is not a Christian. He was a Setian and trained by Tibetan Lamas in
Kargyupa system. As a trained Kargyu, he agreed that Mahakala IS the Dark
Lord - well hell, Mahakala IS the Dark Lord (of transcendent awareness).

Post by SOD of the CoE
#># ...The nature we are is NOMADIC....
#>
#> you have multiple-dwellings from which you're posting?
# In the past I'd have had that. I mean in the inner sense.
means nothing to me. elaborate if you like.

People who are inwardly nomadic are - DIFFERENT - call them oddballs
(society does) or whatever - unpredictable, changeable (very much so) and so
forth.

Post by SOD of the CoE
#># ...the Vajra came from that "Great Blackness", it's in us - but
#># it's more or less samsaric. ONLY the BLACK GOD is real - aka the
#># Void.
#>
#> fun.
#
# I think the problem is you just don't understand what I'm
# saying here - and probably becauase you never experienced it.
another problem is that I also doubt your assertions and do not
take them at face value. I think you make shit up and switch
your stories through time in order to self-aggrandize.

That's part of the problem with your understanding a word I say. I have no
reason to SELF aggrandize when it comes to this - STUPID SHIT. And I regard
it all as STUPID SHIT. Imo, you waste your entire life studying what
amounts to nothingness. Religions. Subsets of this or that, big
categories. What doesn't FIT into your little narrow categores sets you off
in a flurry of wrong-headed questions showing me you are not even on the
same book, forget about the page. I didn't make up anything. I experienced
what I experienced - and I can do what I can do. It's NO big fucking deal -
but apparently to YOU it is - and it's a big enough deal to make
conversation about it impossible. You never experienced what I'm talking
about. Period. IF you did - you'd know what I was talking about without
having to ask a zillion questions. It's like trying to describe the color
red to a blind man; that is what talking to you is like, really. I said
that before: there is TOO BIG a gulf. HERE is a big fucking deal - I MADE
the song "Home" - single and with harmony. THAT TO ME, is a big deal. I
like the song. Who gets to hear it? I DO.

Post by SOD of the CoE
#>#> I'd go further and suggest that only within certain
#>#> dualistic, condemnatory cultures does it make sense.
#> ...I'm thinking of it in terms of LaVeyan Satanism, not
#> Sat-Tan(i)-ism, and not ToSetianism. reactionary developments
#> such as LaVey describes seem predisposed to grapple with
#> condemnatory, Blood Libel rhetoric and propaganda, using
#> the Bogey in sociopolitical ju-jutsu.
# ... Sat Tanism
where is this? you invent a folk etymology and suddently
a whole "ism" exists? who comprises this Sat Tanism?

I may have invented the pun (actually I didn't - we all did) - but I didn't
invent the Sat or how the Sat did Tan. And yes, that comprises an ISM. It
is probably called VEDANTISM if you use the words Sat and Tan as we use
them. Otherwise, it's more or less Kargyupa - without the stupid frills and
mystical lingo.

Post by SOD of the CoE
# is OUTSIDE of these religious dualities and their
# adversaries....
no doubt. you can have it be whatever you want it to.

No, it IS outside of dualism. It is generally known that eastern stuff is
NOT dualistic. I think western stuff is dualistic because the people who
invent it are schizoids isolated from their own inner instincts and
feelings.

Post by SOD of the CoE
<other bits about Sat Tani-ism omitted, non-sequitur>
#>#># dress up like one, but you aren't one. It's EXACTLY like the
#>#># wigger phenomena which makes me wonder why he hated that so much.
#>#>
#>#> some suggest that this is all that there IS to Satanism, of course.
#>#> cf. GMC materials elsewhere posted to "si".
#>#
#># ...If "satan": is the prince of darkness - go from there only ....
#>
#> Ahriman?
#
# No - Karabog, Mahakala....
doesn't fit with LaVeyan Satanism or with precedents
to anti-religion from Blood Libel projections.

Right - IT DOES NOT fit. Get it? DOES NOT fit.

Post by SOD of the CoE
# These are NOT opposed to some god of light as is
# Ahriman - or at least Ahriman was that LATER ON
# after the Persians got stupid and dualized things.
right, the anti-God. that's the primary incidence of
'Satan'. refer to academics of religion and the history
of concepts such as the personification of evil (such
as JBRussell, who is quite clear on the matter and
pretty rough on Setians/Satanists).

YOUR definition of satanism requires this anti-GOD thing. MINE AND OURS
DOES NOT. Got it? I could care less about anti-gods or demonizations of
other cultures someone is at war with or whatever other
all-too-fucking-HUMAN shit you get into.

Post by SOD of the CoE
#># It's looking into the ABYSS - only FOR REAL, Bobo.
#>
#> Eastern mystics or Hermetic CMs.
#
# Those are apparently just words to you....
I'm pointing out their overlapping usage.

I'm pointing out a reality, or loka, not verbiage.

Post by SOD of the CoE
#># This stuff is NOT for everyone. We say it's potentially
#># dangerous.
#>
#> sure, power ascribed is usually couched with danger-zones.
#
# Wrong.
I've run across many instances of it and pointed them out
below. why you don't acknowledge them or dispute them
while cotending that I am wrong is irrational. you don't
want to be categorized as behaving within a human Herd.

Dangerous or not, and I caught hell for it from uncle, I MAKE IT AVAILALBE
TO ALL as if it is NOT dangerous at all. Riding a fucking bike can be
dangerous. Driving a care IS dangerous (fact). So what? I care? I sell
it to ANYONE and the free stuff is available to ANYONE. I could care less
if it's dangerous for them or not.

Post by SOD of the CoE
# I never used to th ink it was dangerous until I saw
# people get hurt from it, end up with medical bills....
a typical story of the type I'm talking about, yes.

I still make it PUBLIC. I'm not telling you a story. I'm telling you what
I've seen. But so what. Driving a car IS DANGEROUS - you disagree? Cars
are sold every day. People drive.

Post by SOD of the CoE
#> it can be seen in some spellcrafting subcultures, and in
#> the New Age neo-tantric culture too. what is "K yoga",
#> and where did you learn about it?
#
# K yoga - kundalini yoga - learn about it? Seems to me
# I always just did it. I didn't learn about it.
not a word about what it is. apparently you have no
connections with anything social by the name and are
merely ascribing the name to something you experience.
thanks for your candidness.

OH, I thought you were asking me what K yoga stood for. Kundalini yoga is
where you open chakras up, in specific order, relocate the consciousness
into them and follow the kundalini up and out - and if done properly, you
ARE the vajra that burns in darkness. That is K yoga. It's something
normally (not unusual) practiced IN-culture. Even the conclusions you
arrive at are in the wrong paradigm - what's the fucking use of talking to
you - you are NOT gonna understand a freaking thing I say because you are
hung up on the superficial and don't even SEE the inner real thing in
itself. You don't.

where I come from that is

Post by SOD of the CoE
called "orientalism", and it is considered suspect,
even culturally-disrespectful (on account of its
appropriative quality and competition for attention).

Don't be an ass. I misunderstood your question.

Post by SOD of the CoE
#>#>#> that's where the Dark Flame could come in, to whisk the pesky
#>#>#> klippoths off the path before one, interweave such that their
#>#>#> presence would constitute no interruption of one's attentions.
#>#>#
#>#># Or easier still - REMOVE the conversation from their neighborhood
#>#># to where they can not see it. MUCH easier.
#>
#> thus it depends on whether they are valuable for some reason.
#>
#>#> I call that *fleeing from the adversary*, which is valuable when
#>#> it is more powerful or capable of disrupting your gig. when you
#>#> are the superior power, then their noise is not significant and
#>#> you will be able to ride over-top them.
#>#
#># My method is what I call YIN. Your method is YANG. In real life,
#># I do not go out of MY way to confront adversaries.
#>
#> /ignore, killfile, email-filter, browser-filter just make sense.
#> it isn't confrontational, it's just rational. ;>
#
# They don't always work.
the Dark Flame can't make them work? this Dark Flame and all the
powers you're talking about don't sound very practically helpful.
would you say that their primary result is to have you feel good?

How about saying that I seldom talk about workings online for very good
reasons. Aside from that, you do not use the flame, dark OR light, to shoo
off clingers. Wrong approach. If anything, that is the very thing they lack
and are also attracted to - like moths to fire. Nuff said.

Post by SOD of the CoE
boboroshi at-sign satanservice.org: Satanic Outreach Director
Church of Euthanasia: http://www.churchofeuthanasia.org/
TOKUS WEBLINKS: http://dmoz.org/Bookmarks/B/boboroshi/
Ninth Scholar's Library (Satanism Archive): http://www.satanservice.org/

Dagon Productions

2005-02-01 01:57:27 UTC

Permalink

Have you not written pieces on the Lovecraftian mythos as well as were
possibly
a member of the Esoteric Order of Dagon?

Doesn't get much more "pop occult" than that.

-Douglas

--
**********************************************
Dagon Productions
Chaos Magick & Occult books
http://www.dagonproductions.com
***@dagonproductions.com

SOD of the CoE

2005-02-03 08:17:13 UTC

Permalink

"Tani Jantsang ©" <***@SPAMpost.com>:
# "SOD of the CoE" <***@boboroshi> wrote in message
#> outstanding issues:
#>
#> * when engaging in Neopagan revival, which period of
#> the god should be worshipped? optimizing from the most
#> powerful or beneficent (cf. Bhairava or Hecate) period
#> of the god is sensible, but what do "timelines" mean
#> to deities? don't deities have lifespans, just like
#> humans and change and develop and regress?

Tani's answer: whatever suits your fancy.

#> * what is an "anti-religion" and how can it be identified?
#> is this a phenomenon which is transcultural in some way?

Tani's answer: no such thing. white guys were drawn to CoS!

#> * what is "the LHP" other than the Indian Vamamarg?
#> is its Western emergence a form of orientalism?

Tani's answer: whatever I say it is. I inherited my powers.

corrections welcomed.

#>#>#> see my posts in response to "si" recently. I don't think you and
#>#>#> I are completely aligned with regard to that.
#>#>#
#>#># Wrong. I 100% agree that LaVeyan satanism comes from Christianity.
#>#>
#>#> not sure to what "Wrong" refers. even LaVey said that his Satanism
#>#> emerged from Christian context. what's your point? you think
#>#> that LaVey and his Council of Nine believed that
#>#>
#>#> 1) they had been raised Christian?
#>#> or that 2) they were practicing a Christian faith?
#>#
#># Imo, inversion Christian faith is the same as Christian faith. Two sides of
#># the same identical coin. They have not escaped that coin. I never changed
#># my stance on that.
#>
#> no answer to my question. either you don't understand it or
#> don't think it valuably asked. I'll assume that you do not
#> believe that they thought they were raised Christians,
#> but that you DO believe, based on your own standards,
#> undisclosed, that they were practicing Christians. your
#> criteria are not stated, and you do not at this time
#> make much sense to me.
#
# I'm not sure what your question is.

here, I'll restate it for you from directly above:

#>#> what's your point? you think that LaVey and his
#>#> Council of Nine believed that
#>#> 1) they had been raised Christian?
#>#> or that 2) they were practicing a Christian faith?

# I see them as "Cultural Christians" Bobo - I can't BUT
# see them as that - since they seem to be that when
# interacting with them. It's not hard to tell.

could you detail some of the characteristics?

# Cultural Jews DO NOT act that way - AT ALL, whether they are
# practicing religious Jews or atheists - they act like JEWS still.
# They believe they are "born" Satanists - yet I don't see that at
# all. They are culturally christian with either christian
# or inverted christian values.

so...

#>#> 1) they had been raised Christian?

Tani's answer: no, they weren't all raised Christians.

#>#> or that 2) they were practicing a Christian faith?

Tani's answer: yes, by inversion.

even though they aren't worshipping Satan, Jesus, Jehovah,
or Mary, dispute the Christian cosmology as fantasy, tend
toward atheism, etc. I have to admit I don't see any logic
to your assumptions. at least the Process Church had some
Christian elements to it.

#>#> I don't. if you do....
#>#
#># Given for DDoc material explaining ASL's dark force in nature.
#>
#> which is not really Christian. thus my confusion. maybe it is
#> some 'guff' throwback to Judaism. you're certainly not saying.
#
# No, no judaism in DDocs either....

you missed my point, sorry. your DDocs aren't Christian either,
and so the fact that folks in the CoS liked them for a while
doesn't really give you more ammunition to aim that paint-gun.
quite the opposite, really.

# LaVey obviously wrote most of his stuff TO and FOR cultural
# christians.

explain how "cultural christians" are different than "Christians".

# That's pretty much most of what goes for his stuff - plus
# they are males and white people, not black christians -
# for the most part.

there could be good reasons for that. for example, it is possible
that black Christians are too close to the material to let it go.
perhaps their relation to Jews and Africa, which are proximate
and overlapping categories, predispose them to believe in the
special Jesus character more fervently, whereas the white
Christians are more cynical and prone to dispute the reality
of the God altogether based on their unwillingness to accept
poverty and struggle as their lot (to which blacks were born
in many instances in the Americas).

#>#> my recall is that LaVey specifies Satanism's transcultural nature
#>#> and does not limit it *to* Christianity in its birthing.
#>#
#># His [by you] limiting it to Christianity is due to his
#># ignorance of anything OTHER THAN Christianity on which
#># to rag upon.
#>
#> he compares his transcultural Satanism w/ Yezidis and others.
#
# He knew nothing about Yezidis.

apparently he had a book or two in hand at some point.

# Yezidis don't go listing christian sins and then inverting them.

non-sequitur. you aren't making a strong case against the
transcultural nature of anti-religion that manifests in several
varieties, one of which is Satanism, another of which Yezidis.
I'm not saying that these are the fulcrum of the debate, but
your argument here in response demonstrates your profound
ignorance of what is being said to you, against which you
are arguing in abject futility. I think you're innocent tho.

# They are a people with their own religion

what is the nature of that religion that seemed similar to LaVey?

# - they are not an ANTI religion at all.

then why would Satanists think these people somehow similar?

# Most sociological studies of the COS define it as inversion
# Christianity.

cites? I haven't ever seen such a thing as this. Moody's text
is apparently "seminal" according to Lewis. even pop-versions
from Adler and Lyons don't say this. where *are* you coming from?

# What do you think it is? Something else?

'define' is the problem term above. describe its activity for a
while and it might include inversion and blaspheming of Christian
rituals, sure. limited to that and defined as such? never seen it.

# What did he have to SAY to Islamics? to Blacks? ...NOTHING....

Muslims: they'd have to do a different kind of Black Mass.
blacks: Satanism isn't race-based to my knowledge.

#>#> apparently
#>#> you don't see cross-cultural symptoms. do you have reason to
#>#> question the existence of these types of 'anti-religion'?
#>#> or that LaVey's doesn't constitute a variety of these?
#>#
#># He stands for a type of anti religion
#>
#> my contention, and his, is that, having confirmed this, it
#> is not of the same character as Christianity and Setianism,
#> primarily because it *isn't* religion, it is primarily a type
#> of *anti*-religion (which grew up in a Christian context and
#> may well grow from within others).
#
# Atheism is anti religion

in its soft valence, it is anti-*theistic* religion, sure;
otherwise you're quite mistaken. hard atheism predisposes
the atheist not to be involved with religion, agreed.

# - ALL religion - and it speaks to all religion. CoSatanism
# speaks to Christians.

a good reason to consider Satanism and atheism to be distinct.
your logic isn't leading me to your conclusions here, Tani.

#> ...the issue was never whether Satanism
#> grew up within Christianity (on that everyone is agreed),
#> but whether there are other instances of anti-religion
#> elsewhere. you apparently believe that there are not.
#
# I don't see any other kind of anti religion in his writings

if he didn't identify them, that is no indicator that he was wrong.
he did talk about Yezidis. I have mentioned the Virosaivite saints.
as I have revised his theories it forms part of an entire martyrdom
cult which grapples with condemnatory rhetoric and propaganda. its
form changes through time toward greater indivialistic emphasis.
to an extent his thoughts on anti-religion are therefore sound to
a degree, but I think the GMC has a particular trajectory that may
not be found outside condemnatory, demonizing dualist cultures.

# since he didn't know enough about OTHER religions.

that's only a reason he wouldn't have mentioned them, not a comment
on the fact that he didn't *conceive of it as transcultural*, which
you aren't even addressing (because you don't understand it).

# ...When he speaks about dark force, dark forces,
# what the fuck is that?

it could be many things. it is certainly associated with *nature*,
and it is what is unseen and unaccounted for by modern scientists.
that doesn't make it Karabog.

#>#> I call 'em 'Great Martyrdom Cult' examples. maybe you think
#>#> along similar lines. is Set mortal? if not, then why not?
#>
#> how will we discern amongst the many Sets? the fact that
#> there are so many is again indicative of the variability of
#> Neopaganism and religious mythos. we might ask why Jews
#> didn't worship the Yah-Ashera mated pair any more, too.
#> some Neopagans have revived that worship, of course.

you're not addressing the main issues here. just passing 'em by.

# So have some Jews....

how will we discern amongst the many Sets? which one is real now?

#>#> are stories that link him with his brother Osiris in ever-
#>#> lasting everdying-rebirthing combat from some particular
#>#> *type* of Egyptian religion? if so, which kind and how much
#>#> do they overlap with modern Setianism? I'd be inclined to
#>#> conclude that a transcultural phenomenon (if LaVey is correct)
#>#> is *less* like Christianity than Setianism is like Judaism,
#>#> which Christianity is trying to subsume, overwhelm, take over.
#>#
#># Set VERSUS Osiris is a much later development in the
#># Egyptian Set religion.
#>
#> oh really? when did the "Egyptian Set religion" happen? why take
#> the earlier rather than the later developments as legitimate now?
#
# Because the later develoments really reflect two cultures clashing
# with each other in Egypt. It didn't really reflect anything
# religions at all.

that's a pretty weak defense. why aren't all gods reflections of
cultures and therefore of equal weight? why select any particular
one to worship except for purpose of convenience (as the god is
powerful and more likely to be helpful and friendly)?

#>#> ...a great deal of emphasis IS placed upon Egypt as
#>#> a school and initiation-center of Moses or Moshe. this guy
#>#> is supposed to have been the *author* of the Big Jewish 5
#>#> *scripture* (Pentateuch), and the Christians are all hot to
#>#> make it *their* scripture too. does "Coming Forth by Day"
#>#> ('The Egyptian Book of the Dead'?) have implications for Jews?
#>#> can we pin the Egyptian god tail on the Jewish Yahweh? if not,
#>#> are they contemporaneous at points?
#
# Set is not Yahway - but I'd say the two cultures intersected when
# Jews lived in Egypt and then got kicked out and wrote a whole BIG
# epic about it. They MAY have demonized Set....

I don't recall much mention of Set in Judaism. you sure?

#>#> are their worship-targets
#>#> ever immortal enemies or something, the way that Set *is*
#>#> paired with Osiris (precursive dying gods before Christianity)?
#>#
#># The Set worship in Egypt long predates contact with Jews there.
#># It long predates Moses (Moshe) the priest of Akhnaton.
#>
#> the current Neopagan revival of Set worship does not predate
#> contact with Jews. to my knowledge there is no direct
#> connection between Aquino and Egyptians. Aquino isn't Egyptian
#> and has no societal initiation from Egyptians, does he?
#
# You'd have to ask him - he MIGHT....

the point is that it can easily be deconstructed as novel and
quite possibly culturally-appropriative.

# ...You confuse when you say "current neo pagan revival of Set
# worship." Do you mean the ToSet? Neopagan?

you're catching up, yes.

# ToSet has extensive research on all things legitmatly Egyptian -

and this makes it NOT Neopagan, ... how? you're not convincing.

# that is, NOT Greek-influenced-hearsay about Egyptian things -
# which turned out to be so wrong that it's a joke.

do you mean that, UNLIKE Crowley he didn't make errors based on
recent egyptologists demonstrating his faux relation to the god(s)?
or just that he had better references and could read better shit?
what do you think that Neopagans do, Tani?

#> this primarily resembles Crowley's faux-Egyptianist revival
#> (faux because later Egyptology displayed the batch of false
#> names from "the gods" he supposedly contacted -- one might
#> as well ask about the Diana and Lucifer pair which might
#> be contacted by Wiccans who love the "Aradia, Gospel of the
#> Witches" construct, thereafter considering the Necronomicon).
#
# ...the Jews got the idea that STN was some kind of adversary
# or liar from a Persian inversion of the Hindu concept of the
# SAT - which also means TRUTH, not just Being.

JBRussell didn't mention anything like that. where *do*
you get your information? you just making this shit up?
it certainly sounds like it, what with your shift from
Pythagorean Zero-Crunchers who can't count without
0s to the Hindus who had it *too*, etc.

# HOW does the COS "talk" to Islamic people?
# Or Shamanic or Lamaist?

explained above. the manner of deconditioning from the cults
will of course vary based on the religion of one's slavitude.
if you can't figure it out based on the religion in which you
were raised (and I don't know what that was in your case Tani
since you talk more about genetics than practical religious
instruction or rites and say you don't do worship or rituals),
then it probably isn't for you (because you're happy in the
cult in which you were born, if any).

# ...I don't think COS satanism is transcultural because it
# provably appeals mostly to white, culturally christian males!

illogical. to whom it appeals is no necessary indicator of its
religious character.

#>#> LaVey described his Satanism as transcultural....

#> it is relevant to a consideration of its possibility. that you
#> aren't even interested in his expression appears your bias.

# No bias at all.

ignorance? what rank or condition or racial or gender background
found Satanism valuable for their deconditioning efforts is not
really a very good indicator, by itself, as to its character as
religion or anti-religion. the fact that there is mention of and
technique given for such deconditioning is an indicator that it
was anti-religious. your logic is unsound on this issue, and so
I'm ascribing your tenacious assertions to bias against the CoS,
probably for stripping you of a boon they previously provided.

# ...from many Europeans, they said it seemed as if LaVey was
# writing TO American people.

this is actually evidence that his claim was true. that you do
not see this exemplifies how much you don't understand about it.

# I see Lavey as a reactionary that is purely the product of
# AMERICANISM and the 60s. Even his social commentary doesn't
# compute outside of America, especially to non-whites.

perhaps anything other than egotism was difficult for him.

#># He got white males for the most part in his org.
#># That is WHO it called out to.
#>
#> irrelevant to the transcultural existence of this anti-religion.
#
# He may have believed it was transcultural - but if it was,
# then it would have called out to a lot more people than
# white culturally christian males.

it's the terminology that is confusing you, apparently.

'transcultural'

in this context it _doesn't_ mean, as it does within
CHRISTIANITY and in BUDDHISM that it escapes from
its original context and travels to other cultures.

in this context (Satanism) it means that it is a
*development within a religious culture*, a novel
anti-religious impulse, which counter-acts the
stupidity religion promotes, and rectifies the
errors which religion is committing.

more importantly, here 'transcultural' means that
this Satanism is not unique, but constitutes an
example of something which may arise within *numerous*
contexts and will vary in form entirely dependent
upon the religion to which it is responding.

it isn't *communicative*, but *multi-locational*.

this is why I said that I thought it likely that 'Satanism'
as a transcultural phenomena (call it what you like when we
are referring to the essential form of it -- Dissenters, see
the Manifesto Satanika) probably arises from within dualistic
religious cultures primarily.

see if that makes it more clear to you. your response that
LaVey's Satanism appealed to one sector of society more often
than others is NOT RELATED TO THE CONSIDERATION OF CHARACTER.

#>#> something which he had *discovered* amidst Christianity (not
#>#> too difficult as the dualism is dissected in symbolic glory
#>#> though millennia and a Satanist has much to work with).
#>#> thus Satanism (as Satan) appears in many valences, Setianism
#>#> bolding its ecclesia over time into an Egyptian obelisk.
#>#
#># There are many other documents, doctrines, other than Book
#># of Coming Forth by Night in that org....
#>
#> is this relevant in some way? I don't follow your assertion
#> or why you bother to make it.
#
# Yes, it's relevant.

how?

#>#> its many adversaries worried the Christians most which
#>#> might be inverted, turned against it, and glorified.
#>#>
#>#> Setianism *is* religiously-exclusive, a type of deism with
#>#> its own theology, while Satanism tends toward the *anti*-
#>#> religious atheistic,
#>#
#># Agree.
#>
#> if you agree with this, then you should also agree as to how
#> Setianism is more alike to Christianity than is Satanism.
#> you claim that you don't agree with this latter assessment,
#> but don't explain how you draw different conclusions,
#> apparently because you are contrasting what you think of as
#> religions, rather than comparing religions as a group against
#> an anti-religion.
#
# Setianism and Christianity are both religions, yes. But they
# are not akin to each other at all.

as religions they are directly kindred. I explained that already,
and I don't understand how all your handwaving changes this.

# ...I don't care what's standing in front of me yabbering
# about what religion he is....

far more horrendous, your criteria for evaluating what religion
someone is is either so vague as to be nonextant or it is based
on something *other* than what is worshipped and believed.

I suggest to you that your methodology is flawed, and, in the
case of Satanism in particular, at odds with common virtues
(primarily individualism, which you are rejecting).

#># - Setianism is not about Judaism - there are Jews in high
#># positions in the TOS....
#>
#> practicing Jews who are members of synagogues or some other
#> Jewish religious org? I doubt this very strongly.
#
# I don't know....

thanks, I meant observant Jews (religious).

#>#> unimportant as far as I know. if LHP is anti-cultural,
#>#> this complicates the nature of 'LHP culture'.
#>#
#># No, LHP is not anti cultural at all....
#>
#> apparently as it derives from your culture. I'm talking about
#> Indians, from whom the Vamamarg seems to originate. if you
#> have some actual, continual lineages that you are talking
#> about, please identify them, thanks.
#
# I know how people in India define it.

how?

# ...I don't care about anti-cultural shit.

so if the Vamamarg is anti-cultural, then you aren't part of it.

# What the fuck was the ANTI religion way back in India when
# Shiva-ite was the ONLY religion? There was none. When someone invents
# crazy stupid taboos - people tend to want to break them. Drugs are illegal
# in the USA. So then, these so-called LHP satanists, do they all use drugs
# in order to break the taboo/law? No, they do not. Do they steal? Murder
# people? Mug people? Do they ADVOCATE doing it? Why not? Heh, black
# rappers advocate it :)

anti-taboo or transgressive is not the same as anti-cultural.

#> did you have something beyond your say-so or genetics
#> which substantiates your contention here?

no answer? apparently your primary source is your imagination.

# People who are inwardly nomadic ....

LOL!

#>#>#># dress up like one, but you aren't one. It's EXACTLY like the
#>#>#># wigger phenomena which makes me wonder why he hated that so much.
#>#>#>
#>#>#> some suggest that this is all that there IS to Satanism, of course.
#>#>#> cf. GMC materials elsewhere posted to "si".
#>#>#
#>#># ...If "satan": is the prince of darkness - go from there only ....
#>#>
#>#> Ahriman?
#>#
#># No - Karabog, Mahakala....
#>
#> doesn't fit with LaVeyan Satanism or with precedents
#> to anti-religion from Blood Libel projections.
#
# Right - IT DOES NOT fit. Get it? DOES NOT fit.

yes, Karabog and Mahakala do not fit with how Christians use
'Satan' (good sources indicate that Ahriman is a much more
likely backdrop than Set or many other deities) and it is
not very close to how Satanists describe 'Satan' *either*.

#># These are NOT opposed to some god of light as is
#># Ahriman - or at least Ahriman was that LATER ON
#># after the Persians got stupid and dualized things.
#>
#> right, the anti-God. that's the primary incidence of
#> 'Satan'. refer to academics of religion and the history
#> of concepts such as the personification of evil (such
#> as JBRussell, who is quite clear on the matter and
#> pretty rough on Setians/Satanists).
#
# YOUR definition of satanism requires this anti-GOD thing.

it's well-known as the Christian version of Satan, Tani.
that doesn't fit with how the typical LaVeyan regards it.

# ...I could care less about anti-gods or demonizations of
# other cultures someone is at war with or whatever other
# all-too-fucking-HUMAN shit you get into.

no doubt you're super-human. sorry, I forgot about that.
I'm just a thinking animal with fast fingers. ;>

#> #># It's looking into the ABYSS - only FOR REAL, Bobo.
#> #>
#> #> Eastern mystics or Hermetic CMs.
#> #
#> # Those are apparently just words to you....
#>
#> I'm pointing out their overlapping usage.
#
# I'm pointing out a reality, or loka, not verbiage.

so you say. I'm pointing out your probable influences.
probable gleanings from books and humans.

#> #> it can be seen in some spellcrafting subcultures, and in
#> #> the New Age neo-tantric culture too. what is "K yoga",
#> #> and where did you learn about it?
#> #
#> # K yoga - kundalini yoga - learn about it? Seems to me
#> # I always just did it. I didn't learn about it.
#>
#> not a word about what it is. apparently you have no
#> connections with anything social by the name and are
#> merely ascribing the name to something you experience.
#> thanks for your candidness.
#
# ...Kundalini yoga is where you open chakras up, in specific
# order, relocate the consciousness into them and follow the
# kundalini up and out - and if done properly, you ARE the
# vajra that burns in darkness.

interesting. again, no mention of any societal connections.
apparently you get it from books and maintain that it comes
through your genes. else, who was your guru? what line?

# How about saying that I seldom talk about workings online
# for very good reasons....

now *that* makes much sense to me, blessed beast!

boboroshi at-sign satanservice.org: Satanic Outreach Director
Church of Euthanasia: http://www.churchofeuthanasia.org/
TOKUS WEBLINKS: http://dmoz.org/Bookmarks/B/boboroshi/
Ninth Scholar's Library (Satanism Archive): http://www.satanservice.org/

Dagon Productions

2005-01-29 10:42:53 UTC

Permalink

Post by SOD of the CoE
Hail Satan!!!
#> the use
#> of killfiles has been stigmatized by trolls who want your and
#> my attention. fall for it if you like, but complaining about
#> their disruption while falling for their lies is hamstringed.
#>
#> Doug-on Prod-ductions was attempting to point out this in a
#> very mean way to you. his point is sound, even if you ignore it.
#
# He should take his own advice,
his advice was that if one doesn't like something or someone,
then they could ignore them. he hasn't complained about you,
of which I'm aware. he just keeps insulting you.

Exactly... I take my own advice.

Post by SOD of the CoE
what that
means about your interest in interacting with him is unknown.
# since he posts all over the place to me when I've not said
# a word to him
oh good.
# - and no, I didn't read his stupid shit.
oh, ok, whew! blessed beast!

Sure tani... than why do you keep replying to some of my posts.

-Douglas

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