Discussion:
Satans and Projections, Demonization, Bogeys and Essentialities
(too old to reply)
SOD of the CoE
2004-12-31 00:10:17 UTC
Permalink
50041230 viii om Hael Satan!

Tani Jantsang:
# Here is what one of the SRs paying attention had to
# say about you and I conversing:

hey, just like the old days when I'd write to Brendan and he'd get
your responses and type them in! fun!

Tani channels "discordianpirate" <discordianpirate@>:
# | ...CoE, all of them, are hard ego driven like that.
# | Flamboyant. VHEMT not as much, softer.

interesting. my experience has been the reverse, so I'm curious.

# | What he's calling Satan is the anima in animals....

that's the only part of nature that is wild?

note: error regarding "what he's calling" -- rather, I've noticed
that what the demonizers call 'Satan' is some portion of the
natural world which is uncontrolled/undomesticated/ungardenified

the demonization of it IS problematic, as I see it. those who take
this demonizing stance ought relax and guard, try to support and
nurture what might be mistaken for a danger or threat, and cease
the Bogey-use. grappling with this Bogey-use is therefore of some
minor benefit and can help assuage the fears and protect Satan.

# | ...He's saying that the very presence of the eye/brain
# |consciousness drives away the anima....

I never had the idea. humans receive different levels of
conditioning.

# | ...he's not seeing where this type of consciousness has
# | come into being, as an adaptive mechanism. Back on the savanna,
# | brute force wouldn't work and humans who still live on the savanna
# | in their traditional lifestyles are killed by wild animals.

sounds good. my contention is that demonizing religions thereafter
set about identifying their cosmic Adversary as those wild animals
what attacked them, and they don't understand the value of large
predators to the whole biosystem, and so try to wipe them out or
cage and domesticate those 'dangers' (this is already obvious and
many of these larger animals, especially predators, are gone).

# | A lot of the anti-human stuff is aesthetic too. Even a slug or
# | snail has some type of radiant beauty, a perfection.

snails and slugs are my Power Animal! you are very correct here!

# | I can guess that this fellow is lower middle class by
# | upbringing, coming from an area full of ugly working
# | class brutes.

hmm, close, but not quite.

# | Wild nature can be pretty ugly too...maggots eating poop
# | and pooping out poop that used to be something else's poop, etc.

yay for maggots! that's the part I like about HPL-media!
thanks for the comments, Pirate.

bobo:
#> not my interest any longer. you've sufficiently characterized the SRs as
#> not entirely Satanist (some RCs or lapsed, etc.) and my attention now
#> lies outside your org et al for concentrated Satanism.

Tani Jantsang:
# Yes, I, I, I, have done that. Meanwhile I hear Casey Casey Casey
# saying NO NO NO to what my viewpoint is. Perhaps that's because
# Casey is Scottish and not eastern. I think so.

that's one of the things I like about Satanism -- it primarily does
not appear to be doctrinal (dogmatic, requiring intellectual
conformance). I guess some org-Satanism may add this facet,
or may occasionally use it to dismember irritants.

# You aren't interested in anything regarding SATANISM unless it is the
# preconceived little notion YOU have of Satanism - that much is perfectly
# clear, and not just to me.

you you you -- I'm not interested in your opinion of me.

# Ok, "you CoE folks" as Pirate said.

I don't know many, and am happy to be told reflections of how
CoE folks are all the same. I mean, I've met some of the church
hierarchy, as such, and got ordained as the SOD and everything,
but I don't know all that many of the membership, being a kind
of inspired solitaire operating agent in the Satanist/Neopagan
fray.

#># I'd never wrangle with them if they and now their 'hate Tani"
#># fans left me the fuck alone.
#>
#> use your Dark Powers. activate, eliminate! Dalek Llama power!
#
# LMAO - that kind of thing isn't going to work for something that's
# really THIS trivial.

damn. I'd hoped the Dark Power was practically-advantageous.

# Hmm, never thought of even doing anything like that.
# Do you know that little kids and animals always like me? ...

that would help you in petting zoos. I have a similar experience.
it can be burdensome at times, especially when my vows have me
crawling around on the ground with them rather than stepping up
into furniture with the "grown-ups".

# ...Gee, I wonder why :)

what do you think the explanation might be? how might
this relate to helping you with hassling idiots?

Jerry channelled by Tani:
%| Translation - a person with PREconceived small ideas of what
%| Satan is, doesn't want to know what ELSE Satan is.

curious. I already described the ultimate category as inclusive
of anything people might think of and I accepted it as legitimate.

my comments, Jerry, were about the Via Negativa-Tani language
comparison/contrast. I have no investment in perpetuating that
comparison, merely reflected it for a moment. if you have an
abiding interest in talking about Christian contemplatives, then
maybe Tani can channel you over at alt.religion.christian a bit.
you seem worse at 'translating' for me than Tani is.

#># Do you understand what he said here?
#>
#> didn't read it. my focus has returned to Satanism, sorry.

%| Bobo doesn't know when the subject of Big Satan

Jerry, what is "the subject of Big Satan" and what does it include?

%| is under his nose. Bobo wants Satan to be only what he
%| imagines it is.

I ignored Tani after she tried speaking for me. you're not doing
any better here. try telling us something that you think/value.
besides this, I've already explained that I don't try to project
my understandings atop others, though with demonizers sometimes
I look to see what they are demonizing and correctly identify
them so we (and more importantly Satan) might benefit thereby.

#># ...I didn't say it was being posted to a cesspool newsgroup....
#># forgot to mention that).
#>
#> your characterizations don't inspire me to spend much time
#> conversing with you.
#
# You don't converse with people. You talk AT them.

you you you. final warning on that one. I've killfiled for less.

<snippage>

# ...SMART humans are the ones that tune into that DAIMONIC kind
# of insight - and who are additionally able to MAKE MANIFEST
# that insight

please do, ASAP! hm, what if someone has delusions of grandeur
about doing so? is there some way to demonstrate their error?

# - that are in touch with something that I think ANYONE would
# call the Ultimate Satan, no matter what religion they are -

this seems ridiculous on its face, but I'll entertain it a while.

my hit on Satan is that SHe appears to people as SHe wants to,
and that might seem like an "Ultimate" to you, and a "relative"
to me. I try to remain neutral, acknowledge my alliance with the
Shaitan as I know Hir, and interpret your Ultimate as either

a) a good-natured interest in getting to the Bottom
of Things, metaphorically, and telling us what
you see at the Back of the Masks;
or b) a contentious attempt to have the Final Word on
the matter and tell us what Satan *really* is.

in the case of a), I welcome your reflections and hope that you
aren't expecting me to confirm them as such ultimates. in the
case of b), I've noticed that some religious do this, and that
a Satanist might do this is amusing to me, becoming my adversary.

# and that would be the Ob. That's the darkness that never got
# infused into all things that emanated from the Light. It's
# also destructive. So these nice things sprung from Daimonic
# insight - seem nice - but are they beneficial in the LONG
# term? Heh.

======================================================
To completely overthrow mystically-oriented religions,
Satanists choose active opposition.
------------------------------------------------------
Anton Szandor Lavey,
quoted in "The Church of Satan",
by Blanche Barton,
Hell's Kitchen Productions, 1991; p. 79.
======================================================

I think this may be the perfect response to such mystical-
sounding contention. do you disagree with this substantially?

#> no, I saw what was of interest to me online already, thanks.

%| translation: Bobo has hands over eyes, hands over ears, hands
%| over mouth, he sees, hears and speaks "no evil."

it's TRUE! acknowledging no 'evil', I cannot see/hear/speak it.

%| Bobo looks for what he already knows, blocking out the whole
%| rest about SATAN that he does not now.

quotations demonstrating this? point me to your definitive,
concise, exact-and-only-from-Satanists description of what
Satan and Satanism is, Jerry, thanks.

# I think the ideas of Satan you seem to focus on

which ones? sometimes I've explained that Western religious seem
to be consistent in their demonizing contentions, and to this
extent it has required a familiarity with Middle-Eastern and
Western religions, especially their anti-God ideas (primarily
splinters from what they used to incorporate into their God).

# are purely western - and I can't really relate to that Bobo....

oh that's ok. I don't require you to relate to whatever you're
talking about.

# my viewpoint is that Satan IS Mahakala or the Abyssal Thatness.

keen! I got that! not sure it means much to equate 'Eastern' and
'Western' religious notions. syncretists and mistaken religious
compilers have done that for centuries. it seems to me that what
you are talking about does, typically, have a contextual
cosmology. are you familiar with those which apply to Mahakala
or to wherever 'Eastern' you think 'Abyssal Thatness' comes from?

# ...Sri Kala Chakra is something I have in my kitchen right now
# - I mean a picture of it (the one on the GoD website I put there).

yeah, we've got a great one on the Mojo Car. all fangy and holding
the Wheel of Samsara and everything. I like Mahakala/Sri Kala Chakra.

# It's kinda hard for me to relate to that as Satan in the Western
# sense

yeah, I can imagine. just think about all those 'Satan' names that
are in "The Satanic Bible" that are gods and anti-gods of a number
of cultures. they even put Siva and some less wrathful deities in
that list. it's funny what those of the West do with Eastern gods.
personally, I don't think such 'translations' are usually helpful,
but if they serve those struggling to deal with the dualism, great.

# when that is our GOD and not considered adverse to anything or
# evil or any of that. The only way I ever got a glimpse of that
# was when OTHERS saw it in temple and said "that's the devil."

yes, your expression here is very valuable. JBRussell covers some
of the high points in his history of concepts, and in particular
the history of the personification of evil through time. he is
clear that some valences of some culture's gods cannot be admitted
by the worshippers and so, in his estimation, the dualism erupts,
and an anti-god is created to hold the parts of the divinity which
cannot be accepted or admitted by the faithful. it's a neato theory.

# ...what Christian Satanists relate to is the "thou shalt not" stuff
# - with satan being "go ahead and do it." ....

yeah, James R. Lewis mentions the prevalence of Christian backgrounds
and the reactionary license established by some Satanisms. I quite
agree that it isn't easy to understand if one hasn't really been
raised in that environment. I haven't, so I see your point. in part
I'm a kind of gate-keeper or mirroring guardian to the Eternal,
so that comes off to different people in different ways.

# ...just don't even try to say who is or is not a Satanist from your
# own viewpoint.

I might, but I don't usually do that. I have a general description of
what I can recognize as such (to which I pointed you before -- what
takes the form of 'Satanism is...' from a first-person perspective
and 'Satan is...' from a positive regard in some alliance or pact.
beyond that, *what* Satan is, exactly, seems to vary quite a bit,
which I find valuable. this is, in part, why I like the notion of
the proliferation of alt.satanism FAQs. I think that diversity and
an explosion of knowledge categories is helpful to Satan in some way.

# Gee, everyone paying attention in the SR must be mind readers :)

:>

# You did not "correct" a thing I said about biology....

nor would I wish to. :> that discussion isn't one I'm interested in
as a whole. having received the revelation that the Bogey of the
Western religious is a natural uncontrolled shifting target, whose
personification may or may not relate to anything intelligent, I'm
content to move on to identify the *real* object to which Satanists
relate. your discussion of biology with me is therefore so much of
a tangent that I have nothing to say in response. this truly isn't
a biology newsgroup and your Satan isn't the same as Christian or
Muslim Satans, so you're confusing too many things together here.

# ...There are certain things MAN does that are completely outside
# "the flesh" for man to know or do....

that's something in which I don't believe, but I don't require
that you take the same attitude or cease your beliefs in it.
that said, since you don't abide dogmas, tomorrow you may not
believe in it any more. your expression appears to change as
it should if your lack of adherence to dogmas is as you say.

#> ...desire to randomly knock
#> out 3 billion people. bunches in the Church of Euthanasia have similar
#> ideas, but the church is consensually-based, non-coercive, so these
#> ideas are not church policy, just discussed. this is to what I'd
#> previously referred when speaking with you about the CoS and its
#> publications including fascism discussions despite the fact that
#> few in the org admin actually supported the notion.
#
# Heh heh - SO THEY SAY. Of course they'd SAY that, silly! The other day a
# Swedish member of their org came along and said "they have not changed" and
# I think he might quit them, from what he said. The thing is, when a tiny
# little weak animal like the ones on URL I pointed to on animal intelligence
# and more - can usurp the very instinct for life in predator animals and muck
# up their instinct to even reproduct - then the "strong" does not necessarily
# "rule" over the "weak" at all.

I don't see how any of this relates.

# It's the TYPE OF PERSON that goes off on
# that kind of rhetoric that we avoid. A wise man who is also very very
# strong, KNOWS that the weakest thing can lay him low, and therefore doesn't
# come all boom bang bash with booming loud rhetoric like that.

reasonable, again I don't know how this relates to the CoE. you are talking
about those who want to wipe out 3 billion people, I gather, and who don't,
I guess, understand the weak vectors (such as disease) which may facilitate?

# Above all, we at SR regard the Satan

in different ways, given that that which ties you together doesn't pertain
to how you regard the Satan. if this is untrue, then explain where there
are SR Statements About What Satan is and post some excerpts here.

# as something VERY QUIET, not loud and bombastic like that.

excellent. I like Asian/Indian notions of quiet power. martial arts
at times have instructions about this. tigers and more.

#> .... the issue is always who will
#> be administering it and how will they remain unbiased. that said, I don't
#> see many other solutions manifesting themselves in the near future other
#> than what I'm suggesting we do as a whole along with the CoE.
#
# The CoE has no ability or power to do any of those things....

completely agreed. nor would I wish it to.

# ...there are people that agree with Cat - and they DO have power.

of course. many of my partners have so agreed. I was the more extreme in
terms of my alliances but they were the more extreme in terms of their
values as regards ungrounded desires.

# was AIDS invented in a lab? What the ebola outbreak an
# experiment and not an accident? I really don't know.

no idea. try some politics or conspiracy newsgroup.

# They are, imo, AMAZING animals.

agreed completely. sometimes I've referred to them as 'Evil Bugs',
completely in jest and on account of the attitude I've seen around
me which demonized insects such as ants. I have enjoyed playing
and battling with them a bit. now I have a convivial relationship,
in general, with the nests to which I live proximate. sometimes in
the winter they come in for dryness, or water or grease or sugar,
but they do prefer the orchard I think.

#># This forum is the ghetto.
#>
#> the more you say this, the less I read of your material. badly
#> characterizing me and the forum isn't conducive to continuing
#> our chat.
#
# You are also posting to a ghetto, perhaps your killfiles
# disenable you from seeing it.

your interest is in terminating our chat, I gather.

#> barely reading your material now. if you don't want me telling you how
#> you are a sock-user, then reconsider this tendency of yours to belittle.

# ...When I say I KNOW SO LITTLE about cars....

you're speaking from within you. your authority with respect to your
knowledge is, to me, rather sovereign. I can accept as "FACT" what
you tell me about yourself. when you start to tell me what is a
"FACT" about me, however, it is unwelcome. that's my point. you're
not sufficiently close to me to make those kinds of assessments.
the medium of cyberspace prevents this type of mind-reading.

# ...When I say I'm a computer moron (well, less of a moron these
# days)....

my perception confirms this. as I see it, that's the best that I'm
going to be able to do -- confirm or deny reports from you about you.
same is true, as I see it, about you. the best that you'll be able
to do with me is confirm or deny that my expression and behaviour
reflects accurately on reports I provide about me. all the other
assertions about one another are guesses, insults, shots in dark.

# You don't want to know about the WONDERS of truly wild nature. OK.

like this.

boboroshi at-sign satanservice.org: Satanic Outreach Director
Church of Euthanasia: http://www.churchofeuthanasia.org/
TOKUS WEBLINKS: http://dmoz.org/Bookmarks/B/boboroshi/
Ninth Scholar's Library (Satanism Archive): http://www.satanservice.org/
Tani Jantsang ©
2004-12-31 05:54:53 UTC
Permalink
Post by SOD of the CoE
50041230 viii om Hael Satan!
# Here is what one of the SRs paying attention had to
hey, just like the old days when I'd write to Brendan and he'd get
your responses and type them in! fun!
Brendan got my responses? I don't think so. YOU got my responses, thru the
slow mail - those were MY responses. Discortian Pirate has posted on here.
He sent that into the egroup, apparently he's kept up with the convo.
Post by SOD of the CoE
# | ...CoE, all of them, are hard ego driven like that.
# | Flamboyant. VHEMT not as much, softer.
interesting. my experience has been the reverse, so I'm curious.
I have no idea what VHEMT is - but pirate posed on alt.satanism awhile ago.
Search his nick and find him and ask him. I didn't ask him, btw.
Post by SOD of the CoE
# | What he's calling Satan is the anima in animals....
that's the only part of nature that is wild?
Ask him - find his posts on here, ask him. I'm NOT gonna.
Post by SOD of the CoE
note: error regarding "what he's calling" -- rather, I've noticed
that what the demonizers call 'Satan' is some portion of the
natural world which is uncontrolled/undomesticated/ungardenified
I have never noticed anti-Satanists using the word Satan to refer to
literally wild nature - I just never in my life ran into ANYONE that ever
thought or said anything like that. Animal Planet is BIG here. Are you
saying that someone thinks that is a satanic channel?
Post by SOD of the CoE
the demonization of it IS problematic, as I see it. those who take
this demonizing stance ought relax and guard, try to support and
nurture what might be mistaken for a danger or threat, and cease
the Bogey-use. grappling with this Bogey-use is therefore of some
minor benefit and can help assuage the fears and protect Satan.
Well, since I never ran into ANYONE using the word satan that way, I have no
idea WHO you are talking about. I have heard PEOPLE demonized as evil, like
Osamma bin Laden - and vice versa - Bush by the Islamics.
Post by SOD of the CoE
sounds good. my contention is that demonizing religions thereafter
set about identifying their cosmic Adversary as those wild animals
what attacked them, and they don't understand the value of large
predators to the whole biosystem, and so try to wipe them out or
cage and domesticate those 'dangers' (this is already obvious and
many of these larger animals, especially predators, are gone).
I see nothing but people trying to protect these large predators FROM
HUMANS. That is ALL I see and have ever seen. Sorry, my experience doesn't
lend itself to understanding what you refer to at all.
Post by SOD of the CoE
# | A lot of the anti-human stuff is aesthetic too. Even a slug or
# | snail has some type of radiant beauty, a perfection.
snails and slugs are my Power Animal! you are very correct here!
REALLY? OH HO!! They are related to MY favorite animal, too. Well well!
Post by SOD of the CoE
# | I can guess that this fellow is lower middle class by
# | upbringing, coming from an area full of ugly working
# | class brutes.
hmm, close, but not quite.
# | Wild nature can be pretty ugly too...maggots eating poop
# | and pooping out poop that used to be something else's poop, etc.
yay for maggots! that's the part I like about HPL-media!
thanks for the comments, Pirate.
He posted on here - as I said - I have no idea if he's reading THIS - but he
obviously read some of it to comment and fw it to the egroup we have.
Post by SOD of the CoE
#> not my interest any longer. you've sufficiently characterized the SRs as
#> not entirely Satanist (some RCs or lapsed, etc.) and my attention now
#> lies outside your org et al for concentrated Satanism.
# Yes, I, I, I, have done that. Meanwhile I hear Casey Casey Casey
# saying NO NO NO to what my viewpoint is. Perhaps that's because
# Casey is Scottish and not eastern. I think so.
that's one of the things I like about Satanism -- it primarily does
not appear to be doctrinal (dogmatic, requiring intellectual
conformance). I guess some org-Satanism may add this facet,
or may occasionally use it to dismember irritants.
Well, the ddocs lend themselves to BOTH interpretations - it would all
depend on how the mind PERCEIVES the things.
Post by SOD of the CoE
#
# LMAO - that kind of thing isn't going to work for something that's
# really THIS trivial.
damn. I'd hoped the Dark Power was practically-advantageous.
I never tried to use it for something like that.
Post by SOD of the CoE
# Hmm, never thought of even doing anything like that.
# Do you know that little kids and animals always like me? ...
that would help you in petting zoos. I have a similar experience.
it can be burdensome at times, especially when my vows have me
crawling around on the ground with them rather than stepping up
into furniture with the "grown-ups".
No, they aren't in petting zoos. They are in my back yard, free - I mean
the lizards and snakes are (not the kids). .
Post by SOD of the CoE
# ...Gee, I wonder why :)
what do you think the explanation might be? how might
this relate to helping you with hassling idiots?
That was rhetorical - I believe you probably KNOW why . Maybe. Maybe not.
I know what it is. If anything, it would make hassling idiots want to harm
me all the more because they LACK that thing I do have - and strongly have.
They have a desire to snuff it out. They can't. They can't touch it - but
they can consume themselves TRYING.
Post by SOD of the CoE
%| Translation - a person with PREconceived small ideas of what
%| Satan is, doesn't want to know what ELSE Satan is.
Gimme a break. I'm copy pasting, Bobo. Channeling my ass. Copy paste.
Post by SOD of the CoE
curious. I already described the ultimate category as inclusive
of anything people might think of and I accepted it as legitimate.
I believe those emails came BEFORE the convo got to you explaining that,
Bobo. Look at what Pirate quoted from your text. It's days or a week old.
Post by SOD of the CoE
%| Bobo doesn't know when the subject of Big Satan
Jerry, what is "the subject of Big Satan" and what does it include?
I believe he probably means boundless darkness itself.
Post by SOD of the CoE
# ...SMART humans are the ones that tune into that DAIMONIC kind
# of insight - and who are additionally able to MAKE MANIFEST
# that insight
please do, ASAP! hm, what if someone has delusions of grandeur
about doing so? is there some way to demonstrate their error?
Smart humans have already done it - ever heard of the atomic bomb? That
somabitz called the THE FOUNDATION and knew he had it in his hand - and he
BROKE it. Later, he regretted it. That is DAIMONIC intelligence making
manifest what he got on insight (daimonically). People have already done
it, Bobo.
Post by SOD of the CoE
# - that are in touch with something that I think ANYONE would
# call the Ultimate Satan, no matter what religion they are -
this seems ridiculous on its face, but I'll entertain it a while.
my hit on Satan is that SHe appears to people as SHe wants to,
and that might seem like an "Ultimate" to you, and a "relative"
to me. I try to remain neutral, acknowledge my alliance with the
Shaitan as I know Hir, and interpret your Ultimate as either
My take on Satan is that people PERCEIVE it the way their brains translate
what they are seeing. There is the IT IS - and it's basically hidden.
People tune in - or it bumps into them - and then their minds MAKE a
perception, they make of it something that "makes sense" to their human
brains.
Post by SOD of the CoE
in the case of a), I welcome your reflections
See just prior.
Post by SOD of the CoE
# and that would be the Ob. That's the darkness that never got
# infused into all things that emanated from the Light. It's
# also destructive. So these nice things sprung from Daimonic
# insight - seem nice - but are they beneficial in the LONG
# term? Heh.
That refers to what people like Oppenheimer probably tuned into - and it's
NOT positive shit - tho it might seem like it is in the short term.
Daimonic stuff - smart people don't just intuit it - they MAKE it. Wheeler
tuned into something like that, and said what he saw. But Feynman, who
admits Wheeler "SAW" it directly - Feynman did the math, made it manifest.
Wheeler did NOT do that.

Don't know if you ever thought this - but ALL of the industry and technology
is POISON on the planet. Yeah, we all like it and use it - but ultimately,
in the long run - it is POISON. In that sense, one might consider it evil -
evil for mankind, evil for the entire ecosystem man lives in (and everything
else in the eco system).
Post by SOD of the CoE
======================================================
To completely overthrow mystically-oriented religions,
Satanists choose active opposition.
------------------------------------------------------
I think Satanists ignore what they don't want to pay attention to and get on
with their own shit and NOT obsess on the "FUCKING HERD OUT THERE AN D THEIR
RELIGION" just so long as the herd/religion/out there does NOT impinge on
one's own pesonal piece of the peace. I personally want no truck with
satanists or atheists or anyone else that goes on a GROUCH fest about what
need not concern him.
Post by SOD of the CoE
Anton Szandor Lavey,
quoted in "The Church of Satan",
by Blanche Barton,
Hell's Kitchen Productions, 1991; p. 79.
======================================================
I think this may be the perfect response to such mystical-
sounding contention. do you disagree with this substantially?
See just prior. Barton is reacting to her own Mormonism. Lavey well, we
know he was really reacting to being LOCKED OUT of the company of his
peers - as he says himself here and there.
Post by SOD of the CoE
# are purely western - and I can't really relate to that Bobo....
I said that. I do not relate or "gut feel" the western "satan" ideas at
all. I do not see Christians as some kind of wimpy peacnicks or (heh gotta
be kidding) turn the other cheek nicey nice people. I see they are VICIOUS,
VINDICTIVE as hell, too. Petty, gossipy, nya nya nya and all TOO ready to
go to war.
Post by SOD of the CoE
oh that's ok. I don't require you to relate to whatever you're
talking about.
# my viewpoint is that Satan IS Mahakala or the Abyssal Thatness.
keen! I got that! not sure it means much to equate 'Eastern' and
'Western' religious notions. syncretists and mistaken religious
compilers have done that for centuries. it seems to me that what
you are talking about does, typically, have a contextual
cosmology. are you familiar with those which apply to Mahakala
or to wherever 'Eastern' you think 'Abyssal Thatness' comes from?
I'm familiar with Makahala and Thatness and Karabog from my own culture. I
am not familiar with scholarly works or whatever on any of it. The ones I
glanced at - I would have trashed them in the can. Kaiden is familiar with
some others (he studied it) and a lot of the texts he found just confirmed
what I wrote about it - tho in more abstract lingo. Why would I bother to
read even that? I'm VERY laid back with all of this in real life. I told
you, I don't hang with people that talk ANY religion.
Post by SOD of the CoE
# ...Sri Kala Chakra is something I have in my kitchen right now
# - I mean a picture of it (the one on the GoD website I put there).
yeah, we've got a great one on the Mojo Car. all fangy and holding
the Wheel of Samsara and everything. I like Mahakala/Sri Kala Chakra.
# It's kinda hard for me to relate to that as Satan in the Western
# sense
yeah, I can imagine. just think about all those 'Satan' names that
are in "The Satanic Bible" that are gods and anti-gods of a number
of cultures. they even put Siva and some less wrathful deities in
that list. it's funny what those of the West do with Eastern gods.
Well, yah, like that. Shiva is a GOD, not some demon or devil - well, heh,
it's a DEVI. Shivaite stuff is very similar to our cultural stuff - but
consider that the people from India in the Sr org do not quite "relate"
anything we have as some kind of adversary or evilness or whatever western
people are gonna relate to. They KNOW what Asat and Sat is. LOL. They
know what that stuff is and for them, like me, the "Great Darkness" is not
something big bad evil - it's SOFT, quiet and dark! It's GOOD. We have
something on Sanatana Dharma up there too, from a member. That IS that
member's cultural tradition.
Post by SOD of the CoE
personally, I don't think such 'translations' are usually helpful,
but if they serve those struggling to deal with the dualism, great.
There is no dualism in the system.
Post by SOD of the CoE
# when that is our GOD and not considered adverse to anything or
# evil or any of that. The only way I ever got a glimpse of that
# was when OTHERS saw it in temple and said "that's the devil."
yes, your expression here is very valuable.
More than that. Why would they think "Time Devourer" is the devil? Well,
heh, looking back on that, they DIDN'T think that - they just saw the
picture. But consider it - a TIME devourer? That would be evil to the
western religions. Western people fear growing old and dying, they fear
aging, they fear a lot of shit that makes NO SENSE to me - so I can NOT
discuss it or relate to it at all. It's like the kid afraid to go into the
cellar - I thought the kid was afraid of rats might be down there. NO - the
kid was afraid of ....... I DO NOT KNOW what!!! But it wasn't possible
rats at all

JBRussell covers some
Post by SOD of the CoE
of the high points in his history of concepts, and in particular
the history of the personification of evil through time. he is
clear that some valences of some culture's gods cannot be admitted
by the worshippers and so, in his estimation, the dualism erupts,
and an anti-god is created to hold the parts of the divinity which
cannot be accepted or admitted by the faithful. it's a neato theory.
Doesnt apply to eastern stuff from what I've seen - definitely doesn't apply
to my own cultural stuff. Not at all. There is no dualism there at all.
Post by SOD of the CoE
# ...what Christian Satanists relate to is the "thou shalt not" stuff
# - with satan being "go ahead and do it." ....
yeah, James R. Lewis mentions the prevalence of Christian backgrounds
and the reactionary license established by some Satanisms. I quite
agree that it isn't easy to understand if one hasn't really been
raised in that environment. I haven't, so I see your point. in part
I'm a kind of gate-keeper or mirroring guardian to the Eternal,
so that comes off to different people in different ways.
# ...just don't even try to say who is or is not a Satanist from your
# own viewpoint.
I might, but I don't usually do that. I have a general description of
what I can recognize as such (to which I pointed you before -- what
takes the form of 'Satanism is...' from a first-person perspective
and 'Satan is...' from a positive regard in some alliance or pact.
beyond that, *what* Satan is, exactly, seems to vary quite a bit,
which I find valuable.
Well, that seems to me different from what you said before - and I'm NOT the
only one that read it that way! When I say that I Tani can't relate to the
"satan" word - that's ME. So so many people see the ddocs as totally
satanism that well, finding that pun to make was nice :) I can't relate to
anyone thinking something is mystical when I feel it every freaking day.
How could I? I can't.

this is, in part, why I like the notion of
Post by SOD of the CoE
the proliferation of alt.satanism FAQs. I think that diversity and
an explosion of knowledge categories is helpful to Satan in some way.
AGREE. The more the merrier, I say. MORE orgs. MORE differences. LET the
SR who likes the ddocs but not the politics GO MAKE an org. Heh, some
already did that.
Post by SOD of the CoE
# You did not "correct" a thing I said about biology....
nor would I wish to. :> that discussion isn't one I'm interested in
as a whole. having received the revelation that the Bogey of the
Western religious is a natural uncontrolled shifting target, whose
personification may or may not relate to anything intelligent, I'm
content to move on to identify the *real* object to which Satanists
relate. your discussion of biology with me is therefore so much of
a tangent that I have nothing to say in response. this truly isn't
a biology newsgroup and your Satan isn't the same as Christian or
Muslim Satans, so you're confusing too many things together here.
Well, yes and no on that. For me, THE Satan is infused in NATURE - all
nature. Nature equals biology. My innate and natural view of human society
IS what's now called "sociobiology." I didn't call it that. Someone named
Wilson (an insect expert) called it that. When you study how nature works,
how LIFE works - you are studying The Satan on a very mundane level - but
what I manage to find astrounds me - that IS interesting to me :)
Post by SOD of the CoE
# ...There are certain things MAN does that are completely outside
# "the flesh" for man to know or do....
that's something in which I don't believe, but I don't require
that you take the same attitude or cease your beliefs in it.
that said, since you don't abide dogmas, tomorrow you may not
believe in it any more. your expression appears to change as
it should if your lack of adherence to dogmas is as you say.
No, not on things like that. The "insight" on how to make fusion is not
within our flesh to know how to do. You can "know atoms" beause you ARE
atoms. But your being (on the level of atoms) doesn't DO fusion. That is
what I mean by outside our biology to know. We are knowing it in some OTHER
way.
Post by SOD of the CoE
#> ...desire to randomly knock
#> out 3 billion people. bunches in the Church of Euthanasia have similar
#> ideas, but the church is consensually-based, non-coercive, so these
#> ideas are not church policy, just discussed. this is to what I'd
#> previously referred when speaking with you about the CoS and its
#> publications including fascism discussions despite the fact that
#> few in the org admin actually supported the notion.
#
# Heh heh - SO THEY SAY. Of course they'd SAY that, silly! The other day a
# Swedish member of their org came along and said "they have not changed" and
# I think he might quit them, from what he said. The thing is, when a tiny
# little weak animal like the ones on URL I pointed to on animal intelligence
# and more - can usurp the very instinct for life in predator animals and muck
# up their instinct to even reproduct - then the "strong" does not necessarily
# "rule" over the "weak" at all.
I don't see how any of this relates.
I know you don't, you said it enough and show you don't - but for me this is
PART OF Satanism, Bobo.
Post by SOD of the CoE
# It's the TYPE OF PERSON that goes off on
# that kind of rhetoric that we avoid. A wise man who is also very very
# strong, KNOWS that the weakest thing can lay him low, and therefore doesn't
# come all boom bang bash with booming loud rhetoric like that.
reasonable, again I don't know how this relates to the CoE. you are talking
about those who want to wipe out 3 billion people, I gather, and who don't,
I guess, understand the weak vectors (such as disease) which may facilitate?
Ooops, wrong page. I'm talking about Satanism. Not CoE.
Post by SOD of the CoE
# Above all, we at SR regard the Satan
in different ways, given that that which ties you together doesn't pertain
to how you regard the Satan. if this is untrue, then explain where there
are SR Statements About What Satan is and post some excerpts here.
You are right. Individual views of Satan are very variable in the SR. VERY
variable!!
Post by SOD of the CoE
# as something VERY QUIET, not loud and bombastic like that.
Yeah, we all do kinda agree on that, no matter what Satan the people in SR
have. SRs are also kind of secretive in their practices wrt occultism.
Post by SOD of the CoE
excellent. I like Asian/Indian notions of quiet power. martial arts
at times have instructions about this. tigers and more.
Yes.
Post by SOD of the CoE
#> .... the issue is always who will
#> be administering it and how will they remain unbiased. that said, I don't
#> see many other solutions manifesting themselves in the near future other
#> than what I'm suggesting we do as a whole along with the CoE.
#
# The CoE has no ability or power to do any of those things....
completely agreed. nor would I wish it to.
Some of them say it, however. Cat says it, I'm assuming she's CoE too.
OK - my way of thinking - what if Cat DID have the resources and power to
DO such a thing!!??? Then what? You can't say she wouldn't actually do it.
I can't say she would actually do it, either.
Post by SOD of the CoE
# ...there are people that agree with Cat - and they DO have power.
of course. many of my partners have so agreed. I was the more extreme in
terms of my alliances but they were the more extreme in terms of their
values as regards ungrounded desires.
# was AIDS invented in a lab? What the ebola outbreak an
# experiment and not an accident? I really don't know.
no idea. try some politics or conspiracy newsgroup.
I've heard all the theories ages ago, even ones M.D.s put forth.
Post by SOD of the CoE
# They are, imo, AMAZING animals.
agreed completely. sometimes I've referred to them as 'Evil Bugs',
completely in jest and on account of the attitude I've seen around
me which demonized insects such as ants. I have enjoyed playing
and battling with them a bit.
OH, the ones down here, black and red ones both, BITE really bad - burns
like fire. BOTH do it . You wouldn't be able to play with them here. I
found that out FAST cause I used to like to play a bit with them in NJ. Nice
ants in NJ, LOL. MEAN ones here.

now I have a convivial relationship,
Post by SOD of the CoE
in general, with the nests to which I live proximate. sometimes in
the winter they come in for dryness, or water or grease or sugar,
but they do prefer the orchard I think.
You have the northern variety, obviously. I have lizard families in my
junipers and snake occasionally living in this kind of pipe that's under the
uh - thing on the roof. Like a drain pipe, but it's big. Used to have a
lot of other strange animals here - before I got human neighbors.
Post by SOD of the CoE
your interest is in terminating our chat, I gather.
What happens in a ghetto? You walk and you get HASSLED, HARASSED, people
try to start shit with you. That's this place. You ARE aware of some of
it, but not the intensity and duration and relentlessness of it - and the
LIBELOUS nature of ALL of it.
Post by SOD of the CoE
# You don't want to know about the WONDERS of truly wild nature. OK.
like this.
You SNIPPED the url - that is why I gather you don't want to know it. Aside
from which, you just said above you aren't interested in the details about
it anyway.
Post by SOD of the CoE
boboroshi at-sign satanservice.org: Satanic Outreach Director
Church of Euthanasia: http://www.churchofeuthanasia.org/
TOKUS WEBLINKS: http://dmoz.org/Bookmarks/B/boboroshi/
Ninth Scholar's Library (Satanism Archive): http://www.satanservice.org/
nagasiva
2004-12-31 08:43:48 UTC
Permalink
50041230 viii om Hael Satan!

hi Tani!

"discordianpirate" <discordianpirate@>:
#># | ...CoE, all of them, are hard ego driven like that.
#># | Flamboyant. VHEMT not as much, softer.

bobo:
#> interesting. my experience has been the reverse, so I'm curious.

Tani Jantsang:
# I have no idea what VHEMT is....

one of the CoE's sister orgs, described on the CoE website as follows:

Voluntary Human Extinction MovemenT -- VHMET,
Founder Les U. Knight's slogan is "May we live long and die out."
http://www.vhemt.org/

other sister orgs are:

Gaia Liberation Front (GLF) makes VHEMT look moderate:
the Humans must be completely exterminated, ASAP.
http://www.churchofeuthanasia.org/resources/glf/glf.html

Globally Responsible Birthing (GRB). GRB's founder Richard M. Bowers
wants births less than deaths by 2003. Amen
http://www.grb.org/index.html
and http://www.churchofeuthanasia.org/snuffit3/grb.html


hm, looks like there was a new saint added after all:

* Saint Sanger AKA Margaret Sanger, 1879-1966, founder of the American
birth control movement and Planned Parenthood. Her views on genetic
fitness, fashionable among liberals of her time, would be considered
insensitive by today's standards, but she was not a racist; her enemies
have used falsified statements to discredit her.

#> note: error regarding "what he's calling" -- rather, I've noticed
#> that what the demonizers call 'Satan' is some portion of the
#> natural world which is uncontrolled/undomesticated/ungardenified

# I have never noticed anti-Satanists using the word Satan to refer to
# literally wild nature....

of course not, there's a huge cosmological divide between me, and how
I see the cosmos, and them (Christians and Muslims primarily) through
time and how they do, what they're demonizing, identifying as the
manifestation of the evil one, etc.; there's some variation, but on
the whole my analysis is pretty sound here.

you and I may differ in understanding it to the extent that you think
there are "supernatural" things. I don't.

# ...Are you saying that someone thinks [Animal Planet] is a
# satanic channel?

television is never Satanic in that sense except to strict fundies,
because one can always engage it placidly without fear of being
affected in any way. at a remove, all things are under control.

#> the demonization of it IS problematic, as I see it. those who take
#> this demonizing stance ought relax and guard, try to support and
#> nurture what might be mistaken for a danger or threat, and cease
#> the Bogey-use. grappling with this Bogey-use is therefore of some
#> minor benefit and can help assuage the fears and protect Satan.
#
# Well, since I never ran into ANYONE using the word satan that way,

this isn't about term-usage, but about the reality behind terms.

# ...I have heard PEOPLE demonized as evil, like Osamma bin Laden
# - and vice versa - Bush by the Islamics.

now you're onto it. these people aren't being controlled by the
speakers, typically, or don't want to be seen as controlling them.
looking into the not-to-distant past one may see that some of them
*used to be controlled by the speakers* (as Bin Laden used to be
on the payroll of one or more of the Bush admins before turning;
Saddam Hussein was similarly set up by US CIA involvements -- they
are even spun to be related by the Bushites; the issue is bigger
because they *used to be controlled and now they are not*).

my aim here isn't to try to tangent into sociopolitics so much
as to explain what I meant, an example.

#> sounds good. my contention is that demonizing religions thereafter
#> set about identifying their cosmic Adversary as those wild animals
#> what attacked them, and they don't understand the value of large
#> predators to the whole biosystem, and so try to wipe them out or
#> cage and domesticate those 'dangers' (this is already obvious and
#> many of these larger animals, especially predators, are gone).
#
# I see nothing but people trying to protect these large predators
# FROM HUMANS.

'bout time.

# That is ALL I see and have ever seen.

we're kinda late in the game for that, but that's reassuring.
no doubt you live in a human habitation-zone.

#># Yes, I, I, I, have done that. Meanwhile I hear Casey Casey Casey
#># saying NO NO NO to what my viewpoint is. Perhaps that's because
#># Casey is Scottish and not eastern. I think so.
#>
#> that's one of the things I like about Satanism -- it primarily does
#> not appear to be doctrinal (dogmatic, requiring intellectual
#> conformance). I guess some org-Satanism may add this facet,
#> or may occasionally use it to dismember irritants.
#
# Well, the ddocs lend themselves to BOTH interpretations - it would all
# depend on how the mind PERCEIVES the things.

imprecise, ambiguous, and mystical language can spin that way too.

#> damn. I'd hoped the Dark Power was practically-advantageous.
#
# I never tried to use it for something like that.

why not? it would seem helpful.

# ...If anything, it would make hassling idiots want to harm
# me all the more because they LACK that thing I do have -
# and strongly have. They have a desire to snuff it out.
# They can't. They can't touch it - but they can consume
# themselves TRYING.

as long as they're consuming themselves and whatever that
sounds like they'll have less energy to hassle you. if they
aren't being turned aside, what kind of power is it really?

#> my hit on Satan is that SHe appears to people as SHe wants to,
#> and that might seem like an "Ultimate" to you, and a "relative"
#> to me. I try to remain neutral, acknowledge my alliance with the
#> Shaitan as I know Hir, and interpret your Ultimate as either
#
# My take on Satan is that people PERCEIVE it the way their brains
# translate what they are seeing. There is the IT IS - and it's
# basically hidden. People tune in - or it bumps into them - and
# then their minds MAKE a perception, they make of it something
# that "makes sense" to their human brains.

this is an area where we seem to agree directly. the appearance
of Satan has some kind of variable quality based on the
character of the individual perceiving Hir. presuming this has
helped me occasionally to interpret the expressions of Satanists
and those who were afraid of a) what they regarded as Satan or
b) what I regarded as Satan.

# ...I personally want no truck with satanists or atheists or
# anyone else that goes on a GROUCH fest about what need not
# concern him.

sensible.

#> I think this may be the perfect response to such mystical-
#> sounding contention. do you disagree with this substantially?
#
# See just prior. Barton is reacting to her own Mormonism.

Barton's editing, LaVey's text.

# Lavey well, we know he was really reacting to being LOCKED OUT
# of the company of his peers - as he says himself here and there.

quotes? referrals to text he wrote on it?


#># are purely western - and I can't really relate to that Bobo....

# I said that. I do not relate or "gut feel" the western "satan" ideas at
# all. I do not see Christians as some kind of wimpy peacnicks or (heh gotta
# be kidding) turn the other cheek nicey nice people. I see they are VICIOUS,
# VINDICTIVE as hell, too. Petty, gossipy, nya nya nya and all TOO ready to
# go to war.

seems a spectrum to me, like most religions.

#> ...all those 'Satan' names that
#> are in "The Satanic Bible" that are gods and anti-gods of a number
#> of cultures. they even put [Shiva] and some less wrathful deities in
#> that list. it's funny what those of the West do with Eastern gods.

also included: Bast, Coyote, Dracula, Hecate, Ishtar, Kali,
Lilith, Loki, Marduk, Midgard, Pan, Pluto, Thoth

within his list 'THE INFERNAL NAMES'.

#> personally, I don't think such 'translations' are usually helpful,
#> but if they serve those struggling to deal with the dualism, great.
#
# There is no dualism in the system.

it wasn't your system to which I was referring, but those who saw
your Mahakala as "the devil", as below. the neato theory to which
I was referring has it that people develop a kind of dualism and
then split the God into something "good" and something "evil".
I'd ascribed it to JBRussell, but I suspect it precedes him.

#># when that is our GOD and not considered adverse to anything or
#># evil or any of that. The only way I ever got a glimpse of that
#># was when OTHERS saw it in temple and said "that's the devil."

# ...Why would they think "Time Devourer" is the devil? Well, heh,
# looking back on that, they DIDN'T think that - they just saw the
# picture....

their cosmology only allowed that 'translation', which, as I've
attempted to argue above, doesn't usually work very well. someone
installing their cosmology into or through that of another is very
often going to find completely different valences for all of it,
those which won't jibe to that being put through the 'translator'.

#> JBRussell covers some
#> of the high points in his history of concepts, and in particular
#> the history of the personification of evil through time. he is
#> clear that some valences of some culture's gods cannot be admitted
#> by the worshippers and so, in his estimation, the dualism erupts,
#> and an anti-god is created to hold the parts of the divinity which
#> cannot be accepted or admitted by the faithful. it's a neato theory.
#
# Doesnt apply to eastern stuff from what I've seen - definitely
# doesn't apply to my own cultural stuff. Not at all. There is
# no dualism there at all.

it wasn't an attempt to relate to the East so much as to 'Satan',
Tani. where 'Satan' comes from the God is split into his District
Attorney, who does the bad stuff, and the Godfather, the Judge
(as in Job). from there in some forms of Judaism and in many of
Christianity the God stops being associated with the Satan and
it begins, primarily through a process of media-crafting in pop
legends, to become an anti-God to scare people into converting
(through what is in philosophic circles called 'Pascale's Wager').

the neato theory is that the people couldn't handle the "bad stuff"
being attributed to the God any longer. they had somehow to find a
rationalize what was going down with what they were worshipping,
and, not being able to, developed some kind of dualism. this seems
to have happened with Jewish sects and before them amongst the
Zoroastrians (with the Mazdaists, primarily, who hated Ahriman).

#># ...what Christian Satanists relate to is the "thou shalt not" stuff
#># - with satan being "go ahead and do it." ....

#># ...just don't even try to say who is or is not a Satanist from your
#># own viewpoint.
#>
#> I might, but I don't usually do that. I have a general description of
#> what I can recognize as such (to which I pointed you before -- what
#> takes the form of 'Satanism is...' from a first-person perspective
#> and 'Satan is...' from a positive regard in some alliance or pact.
#> beyond that, *what* Satan is, exactly, seems to vary quite a bit,
#> which I find valuable.
#>
# Well, that seems to me different from what you said before -
# and I'm NOT the only one that read it that way!

my apologies for any unclarity. since I go into these discussions thinking
we have very different language and the usenet medium is so constrained,
I usually allow some time before I figure I can be sure what someone means.

# When I say that I Tani can't relate to the "satan" word - that's ME.

yeah, I know what you mean, as I said. I didn't really find any way to
understand it before at all until I started to study the history of
the personification of evil, the history of the Christian and Muslim
Satans, and demonology as a worldwide phenomenon and what might lie
beneath its suppositions and descriptions.

# ...I can't relate to anyone thinking something is mystical when
# I feel it every freaking day. How could I? I can't.

the term "mysticism" as you use it doesn't fit with it. I understand.
that was how LaVey used it too, in the negative as regards what he
found self-descriptive. there are many valences of the term, and some
of them are not rarefied as you have described. Underhill and others
have done extensive studies on the subject worthy of study. opposing
the application of the term based on your apprehension is likely to
get *your* meaning across.

#># You did not "correct" a thing I said about biology....
#>
#> nor would I wish to. :> that discussion isn't one I'm interested in
#> as a whole. having received the revelation that the Bogey of the
#> Western religious is a natural uncontrolled shifting target, whose
#> personification may or may not relate to anything intelligent, I'm
#> content to move on to identify the *real* object to which Satanists
#> relate. your discussion of biology with me is therefore so much of
#> a tangent that I have nothing to say in response. this truly isn't
#> a biology newsgroup and your Satan isn't the same as Christian or
#> Muslim Satans, so you're confusing too many things together here.
#
# Well, yes and no on that. For me, THE Satan is infused in NATURE - all
# nature. Nature equals biology. My innate and natural view of human society
# IS what's now called "sociobiology." I didn't call it that. Someone named
# Wilson (an insect expert) called it that. When you study how nature works,
# how LIFE works - you are studying The Satan on a very mundane level - but
# what I manage to find [astounds] me - that IS interesting to me :)

I can relate. as long as you're talking about what you regard as Satan,
its reference to biology starts making more sense to me. I still don't
see why "Natural equals biology." I can understand that biology is
a study of a certain facet or piece of the natural. I don't know
anything which is *not* natural, so some confusion may be semantical.

#># ...There are certain things MAN does that are completely outside
#># "the flesh" for man to know or do....

# ...The "insight" on how to make fusion
# is not within our flesh to know how to do. You can "know atoms"
# [because] you ARE atoms. But your being (on the level of atoms)
# doesn't DO fusion. That is what I mean by outside our biology
# to know. We are knowing it in some OTHER way.

one might describe all of technology that way. we must be trained
to use it, it isn't inherent knowledge to us.

#>#> ...desire to randomly knock
#>#> out 3 billion people. bunches in the Church of Euthanasia have similar
#>#> ideas, but the church is consensually-based, non-coercive, so these
#>#> ideas are not church policy, just discussed. this is to what I'd
#>#> previously referred when speaking with you about the CoS and its
#>#> publications including fascism discussions despite the fact that
#>#> few in the org admin actually supported the notion.
#>#
#># Heh heh - SO THEY SAY. Of course they'd SAY that, silly! The other
#># day a Swedish member of their org came along and said "they have not
#># changed" and I think he might quit them, from what he said. The thing
#># is, when a tiny little weak animal like the ones on URL I pointed to
#># on animal intelligence and more - can usurp the very instinct for life
#># in predator animals and muck up their instinct to even reproduct -
#># then the "strong" does not necessarily "rule" over the "weak" at all.

# ...for me this is PART OF Satanism, Bobo.

#># It's the TYPE OF PERSON that goes off on that kind of rhetoric that
#># we avoid. A wise man who is also very very strong, KNOWS that the
#># weakest thing can lay him low, and therefore doesn't come all boom
#># bang bash with booming loud rhetoric like that.

# ...I'm talking about Satanism....

I think I understand you now, thanks for elaborating.

#>#> .... the issue is always who will be administering it and
#>#> how will they remain unbiased. that said, I don't see many
#>#> other solutions manifesting themselves in the near future
#>#> other than what I'm suggesting we do as a whole along with
#>#> the CoE.
#>#
#># The CoE has no ability or power to do any of those things....
#>
#> completely agreed. nor would I wish it to.
#
# Some of them say it, however.

of course. advocation and communication are an important part of
the church's activities.

# Cat says it, I'm assuming she's CoE too.

no she's not. it isn't that she couldn't be if she didn't want to.
all it takes is a vow not to procreate and a fee payment (15$?).

# OK - my way of thinking - what if Cat DID have the resources
# and power to DO such a thing!!??? Then what? You can't say
# she wouldn't actually do it. I can't say she would actually
# do it, either.

or any of my kindred who've thought about similar things. that
is quite so. I feel that I want to be less coercive than that.
the fact that the theoretics are unworkable, that there is no
way to implement the ideas, makes it strictly conjectural and
amount to a type of sociopolitical expression. nonetheless,
sri catyananda was quite satisfied with the population-
reduction of the latest tsunami. its method for wiping out
consuming human beings seems to have spared many non-humans.
the next step would of course be how to make such quakes.
it starts to look like a comic book villain scenario.

#> now I have a convivial relationship,
#> in general, with the nests to which I live proximate. sometimes in
#> the winter they come in for dryness, or water or grease or sugar,
#> but they do prefer the orchard I think.
#
# You have the northern variety, obviously....

absolutely. I've had to venture far away to find more hostile
varieties. those here are quite amiable, dedicated and numerous.

# What happens in a ghetto?

that's more interesting than just hearing how usenet is one.

# You walk and you get HASSLED, HARASSED, people try to start
# shit with you. That's this place. You ARE aware of some of
# it, but not the intensity and duration and relentlessness of
# it - and the LIBELOUS nature of ALL of it.

I must be a ghetto-dweller, used to all of it, by now, and
very familiar with the ghetto-technology, and its defenses.
there's something far more depressing and constrained within
a ghetto, however. dictionary.com has:

Dc| ghet·to... n. pl. ghet·tos or ghet·toes
Dc| 1. A section of a city occupied by a minority group who live there
Dc| especially because of social, economic, or legal pressure.

the pressure to be here is missing.

Dc| 2. An often walled quarter in a European city to which Jews were
Dc| restricted beginning in the Middle Ages.

the racism and immigrational factors are missing here.

Dc| 3. Something that resembles the restriction or isolation of a city
Dc| ghetto: "trapped in ethnic or pink-collar managerial job
Dc| ghettoes" (Diane Weathers).

the trappedness of usenet is missing here.

I don't find it applies in the slightest. in fact the more I read about
how 'brutal' Satanism (from LaVeyans) the more I think usenet is more
Satanic than most other forms of cybernetic communication, blessed beast!

boboroshi at-sign satanservice.org: Satanic Outreach Director
Church of Euthanasia: http://www.churchofeuthanasia.org/
TOKUS WEBLINKS: http://dmoz.org/Bookmarks/B/boboroshi/
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Tani Jantsang ©
2005-01-02 21:51:18 UTC
Permalink
Post by SOD of the CoE
50041230 viii om Hael Satan!
#> note: error regarding "what he's calling" -- rather, I've noticed
#> that what the demonizers call 'Satan' is some portion of the
#> natural world which is uncontrolled/undomesticated/ungardenified
# I have never noticed anti-Satanists using the word Satan to refer to
# literally wild nature....
of course not, there's a huge cosmological divide between me, and how
I see the cosmos, and them (Christians and Muslims primarily) through
time and how they do, what they're demonizing, identifying as the
manifestation of the evil one, etc.; there's some variation, but on
the whole my analysis is pretty sound here.
you and I may differ in understanding it to the extent that you think
there are "supernatural" things. I don't.
Nothing is super natural. All things are natural - even if we have no
explanation for them right now. I never ran into ANYONE that thought any
aspect of wild nature was Satanic or of Satan. On the contrary! I've run
into the complete reverse of this. "Be like the animals" and so forth -
said by pious Christians.
Post by SOD of the CoE
# ...Are you saying that someone thinks [Animal Planet] is a
# satanic channel?
television is never Satanic in that sense except to strict fundies,
because one can always engage it placidly without fear of being
affected in any way. at a remove, all things are under control.
OH, I see TV as satanic in that it is one of the ultimate pleasure
entertainment vehicles, better than anything - and also it COULD be used for
some nefarious ends.
Post by SOD of the CoE
#> the demonization of it IS problematic, as I see it. those who take
#> this demonizing stance ought relax and guard, try to support and
#> nurture what might be mistaken for a danger or threat, and cease
#> the Bogey-use. grappling with this Bogey-use is therefore of some
#> minor benefit and can help assuage the fears and protect Satan.
#
# Well, since I never ran into ANYONE using the word satan that way,
this isn't about term-usage, but about the reality behind terms.
I never ran into any feeling or sentiment like that - as I said, I ran into
literally the completely opposite of it. EG, be like the animals - or
"notice that animals never sin." blah blah. Even with the
environmentalists - you get MAN being demonized 100% of the time - animals
can do no wrong, plants can do no wrong (even weeds).
Post by SOD of the CoE
# ...I have heard PEOPLE demonized as evil, like Osamma bin Laden
# - and vice versa - Bush by the Islamics.
now you're onto it. these people aren't being controlled by the
speakers, typically, or don't want to be seen as controlling them.
looking into the not-to-distant past one may see that some of them
*used to be controlled by the speakers* (as Bin Laden used to be
on the payroll of one or more of the Bush admins before turning;
Saddam Hussein was similarly set up by US CIA involvements -- they
are even spun to be related by the Bushites; the issue is bigger
because they *used to be controlled and now they are not*).
The only reason they are being demonized is as an excuse to go TAKE the
resourses, build that pipeline, get that oil. No other reason. If there
was no oil there, it wouldn't matter who was or was not controlled by
anyone.
Post by SOD of the CoE
my aim here isn't to try to tangent into sociopolitics so much
as to explain what I meant, an example.
#> sounds good. my contention is that demonizing religions thereafter
#> set about identifying their cosmic Adversary as those wild animals
#> what attacked them, and they don't understand the value of large
#> predators to the whole biosystem, and so try to wipe them out or
#> cage and domesticate those 'dangers' (this is already obvious and
#> many of these larger animals, especially predators, are gone).
#
# I see nothing but people trying to protect these large predators
# FROM HUMANS.
'bout time.
Well, my take is that such BIG predators that have been here SO SO long, so
much longer than hominids, don't need our protection. If they fail to
survive - then so be it - some OTHER animals will rise up. In hypoxic areas
where certain fish die - some other fish can adapt to it - and other things
are moving INTO that hypoxic ecosystem because they are used to those
conditions. Evolution is all about change, changing eco systems. I'm not
afraid of that. Trying to resist change is futile.
Post by SOD of the CoE
# That is ALL I see and have ever seen.
we're kinda late in the game for that, but that's reassuring.
no doubt you live in a human habitation-zone.
#># Yes, I, I, I, have done that. Meanwhile I hear Casey Casey Casey
#># saying NO NO NO to what my viewpoint is. Perhaps that's because
#># Casey is Scottish and not eastern. I think so.
#>
#> that's one of the things I like about Satanism -- it primarily does
#> not appear to be doctrinal (dogmatic, requiring intellectual
#> conformance). I guess some org-Satanism may add this facet,
#> or may occasionally use it to dismember irritants.
#
# Well, the ddocs lend themselves to BOTH interpretations - it would all
# depend on how the mind PERCEIVES the things.
imprecise, ambiguous, and mystical language can spin that way too.
Not so - ANYTHING can spin that way, Bobo. Consider pro Bush and anti Bush
forces - they both have the same DATA to deal with. They both PERCEIVE it
in two different ways. OKk then, let me break it down to the most concrete
level here (which is what I always do in monographs). I see the color
mahogany as rust-like color. Wayne sees it as purple-like color. Who is
right? His eyes see, my eyes see. Most people see what I see - rust-like
color. Rust colors, like a rust carpet, rust tone furniture, GO WITH
Mahogany. Purple doesn't go with it (I mean, match it). The monographs
explain things as concretely as possible to explain - and from every angle -
always concrete. Still, if I say "mahogany" some folks are gonna think
purple and some are gonna think rust color. Some even see it as red - but
it's not red either. I meant what I said - it depends on how the individual
HUMAN BRAIN perceives this, once it is felt, experienced. Anyone can go on
a roller coaster. I love it. Wayne hates it. It's pure fucking JOY times
100. HEAVEN is a HUGE rollercoaster ride :) For Wayne it's pure fucking
terror and he'll never go on on again. Who's right? His being perceives
one thing. My being perceives another. Clue: I KNOW the ride is NOT
dangerous!! He knows the ride if not dangerous too! So "danger" is not a
factor at all. That is what I meant by perceiving.
Post by SOD of the CoE
#> my hit on Satan is that SHe appears to people as SHe wants to,
#> and that might seem like an "Ultimate" to you, and a "relative"
#> to me. I try to remain neutral, acknowledge my alliance with the
#> Shaitan as I know Hir, and interpret your Ultimate as either
#
# My take on Satan is that people PERCEIVE it the way their brains
# translate what they are seeing. There is the IT IS - and it's
# basically hidden. People tune in - or it bumps into them - and
# then their minds MAKE a perception, they make of it something
# that "makes sense" to their human brains.
this is an area where we seem to agree directly. the appearance
of Satan has some kind of variable quality based on the
character of the individual perceiving Hir.
YES.

presuming this has
Post by SOD of the CoE
helped me occasionally to interpret the expressions of Satanists
and those who were afraid of a) what they regarded as Satan or
b) what I regarded as Satan.
I think people who are afraid of Satan are like that kid that was afraid to
go down in the cellar - and she was NOT afraid there might be rats there.
Rats WOULD be something to fear back then, indeed! But she was afraid of ??
I don't know.
Post by SOD of the CoE
# ...I personally want no truck with satanists or atheists or
# anyone else that goes on a GROUCH fest about what need not
# concern him.
sensible.
#> I think this may be the perfect response to such mystical-
#> sounding contention. do you disagree with this substantially?
#
# See just prior. Barton is reacting to her own Mormonism.
Barton's editing, LaVey's text.
Or she wrote it. SHE wrote the book "cos."
Post by SOD of the CoE
# Lavey well, we know he was really reacting to being LOCKED OUT
# of the company of his peers - as he says himself here and there.
quotes? referrals to text he wrote on it?
Oh heck, it's all over. It's in Secret Life with his experience in the gym
with the "regular guys," it's in some essays where he said he had to "play
the hard guy" when girls snuck out to date him, etc. My take is that back
then, definitely, it was a kind of racism he was subjected to. I remember
those days, Bobo! Personally, I always wondered about people that refrained
from the pure joy of playing with a ball in a game, especially kids that
refrained.
Post by SOD of the CoE
#># are purely western - and I can't really relate to that Bobo....
# I said that. I do not relate or "gut feel" the western "satan" ideas at
# all. I do not see Christians as some kind of wimpy peacnicks or (heh gotta
# be kidding) turn the other cheek nicey nice people. I see they are VICIOUS,
# VINDICTIVE as hell, too. Petty, gossipy, nya nya nya and all TOO ready to
# go to war.
seems a spectrum to me, like most religions.
#> ...all those 'Satan' names that
#> are in "The Satanic Bible" that are gods and anti-gods of a number
#> of cultures. they even put [Shiva] and some less wrathful deities in
#> that list. it's funny what those of the West do with Eastern gods.
also included: Bast, Coyote, Dracula, Hecate, Ishtar, Kali,
Lilith, Loki, Marduk, Midgard, Pan, Pluto, Thoth
within his list 'THE INFERNAL NAMES'.
Well, some folks might take supreme issue with his listing some of them as
"INFERNAL" names. They'd strongly object to it.
Post by SOD of the CoE
#> personally, I don't think such 'translations' are usually helpful,
#> but if they serve those struggling to deal with the dualism, great.
#
# There is no dualism in the system.
it wasn't your system to which I was referring, but those who saw
your Mahakala as "the devil", as below. the neato theory to which
I was referring has it that people develop a kind of dualism and
then split the God into something "good" and something "evil".
I'd ascribed it to JBRussell, but I suspect it precedes him.
I think all dualism is klippothic. No, I know it is. I won't debate it.
Post by SOD of the CoE
#># when that is our GOD and not considered adverse to anything or
#># evil or any of that. The only way I ever got a glimpse of that
#># was when OTHERS saw it in temple and said "that's the devil."
# ...Why would they think "Time Devourer" is the devil? Well, heh,
# looking back on that, they DIDN'T think that - they just saw the
# picture....
their cosmology only allowed that 'translation', which, as I've
attempted to argue above, doesn't usually work very well. someone
installing their cosmology into or through that of another is very
often going to find completely different valences for all of it,
those which won't jibe to that being put through the 'translator'.
#> JBRussell covers some
#> of the high points in his history of concepts, and in particular
#> the history of the personification of evil through time. he is
#> clear that some valences of some culture's gods cannot be admitted
#> by the worshippers and so, in his estimation, the dualism erupts,
#> and an anti-god is created to hold the parts of the divinity which
#> cannot be accepted or admitted by the faithful. it's a neato theory.
#
# Doesnt apply to eastern stuff from what I've seen - definitely
# doesn't apply to my own cultural stuff. Not at all. There is
# no dualism there at all.
it wasn't an attempt to relate to the East so much as to 'Satan',
Tani. where 'Satan' comes from the God is split into his District
Attorney, who does the bad stuff, and the Godfather, the Judge
(as in Job). from there in some forms of Judaism and in many of
Christianity the God stops being associated with the Satan and
it begins, primarily through a process of media-crafting in pop
legends, to become an anti-God to scare people into converting
(through what is in philosophic circles called 'Pascale's Wager').
I see what you mean now, LOL. (smack me). Well, I think people that do
things like that are kinda dumb. Torture was also used to convert them,
Bobo. Not just words. Or bribes, that too.
Post by SOD of the CoE
the neato theory is that the people couldn't handle the "bad stuff"
being attributed to the God any longer. they had somehow to find a
rationalize what was going down with what they were worshipping,
and, not being able to, developed some kind of dualism. this seems
to have happened with Jewish sects and before them amongst the
Zoroastrians (with the Mazdaists, primarily, who hated Ahriman).
Yup, GoD site has article on the original dualism (Persian stuff).
Post by SOD of the CoE
#># ...what Christian Satanists relate to is the "thou shalt not" stuff
#># - with satan being "go ahead and do it." ....
#># ...just don't even try to say who is or is not a Satanist from your
#># own viewpoint.
#>
#> I might, but I don't usually do that. I have a general description of
#> what I can recognize as such (to which I pointed you before -- what
#> takes the form of 'Satanism is...' from a first-person perspective
#> and 'Satan is...' from a positive regard in some alliance or pact.
#> beyond that, *what* Satan is, exactly, seems to vary quite a bit,
#> which I find valuable.
#>
# Well, that seems to me different from what you said before -
# and I'm NOT the only one that read it that way!
my apologies for any unclarity. since I go into these discussions thinking
we have very different language and the usenet medium is so constrained,
I usually allow some time before I figure I can be sure what someone means.
OK.
Post by SOD of the CoE
# When I say that I Tani can't relate to the "satan" word - that's ME.
yeah, I know what you mean, as I said. I didn't really find any way to
understand it before at all until I started to study the history of
the personification of evil, the history of the Christian and Muslim
Satans, and demonology as a worldwide phenomenon and what might lie
beneath its suppositions and descriptions.
# ...I can't relate to anyone thinking something is mystical when
# I feel it every freaking day. How could I? I can't.
the term "mysticism" as you use it doesn't fit with it. I understand.
that was how LaVey used it too, in the negative as regards what he
found self-descriptive. there are many valences of the term, and some
of them are not rarefied as you have described. Underhill and others
have done extensive studies on the subject worthy of study. opposing
the application of the term based on your apprehension is likely to
get *your* meaning across.
Well, when I've met people (at the NJMS, doctors doing some study) that
insisted that THEY did not now HOW I was doing something, or how Dr. Thind
was doing something (Thind was from India, btw) - that's too bad. We are
DOing it - and we CAN do it. Of course it's not mystical, DUH. How can it
be? But it would be CALLED that by everyone else who can NOT do it. That
is why I keep comparing to hearing ability in music. That's just so well
known that no one is gonna call a person with good ears "psychic" or
"mystical." But if it was not so well known in the west, they WOULD call it
that! Think about it! A person studies for decades to play a piece. A
kids sits down after hearing it and PLAYS it? Was the kid a musicisn in his
past life? If some spirit possessing him? I can just imagine the theories
that would engender if it was not so damned well known that people CAN DO
this. People with good ears like that CAN just do that - they don't need
teachers.
Post by SOD of the CoE
#># You did not "correct" a thing I said about biology....
#>
#> nor would I wish to. :> that discussion isn't one I'm interested in
#> as a whole. having received the revelation that the Bogey of the
#> Western religious is a natural uncontrolled shifting target, whose
#> personification may or may not relate to anything intelligent, I'm
#> content to move on to identify the *real* object to which Satanists
#> relate. your discussion of biology with me is therefore so much of
#> a tangent that I have nothing to say in response. this truly isn't
#> a biology newsgroup and your Satan isn't the same as Christian or
#> Muslim Satans, so you're confusing too many things together here.
#
# Well, yes and no on that. For me, THE Satan is infused in NATURE - all
# nature. Nature equals biology. My innate and natural view of human society
# IS what's now called "sociobiology." I didn't call it that. Someone named
# Wilson (an insect expert) called it that. When you study how nature works,
# how LIFE works - you are studying The Satan on a very mundane level - but
# what I manage to find [astounds] me - that IS interesting to me :)
I can relate. as long as you're talking about what you regard as Satan,
its reference to biology starts making more sense to me. I still don't
see why "Natural equals biology." I can understand that biology is
a study of a certain facet or piece of the natural. I don't know
anything which is *not* natural, so some confusion may be semantical.
OH, natural - I mean nature. Heh. Biology - biological. I disagree,
biological IS natural - OF nature. When you start getting into the fact that
there are 3 different types of quark pairs (our type is up/down) - 3
different types of electrons, 3 different types of nutrinos - heh - well
then. Hmmm. WHY ONLY 3? I don't know. Does anyone know? Now - that's
more like the "WHAT IS." WHY is mass energy the way it is? Because - IT
IS. LOL. A lot of the stuff in the actual doctrines, the nitty gritty of
it - is a LOT LIKE this stuff - and I think that's amazing. I'm not the
only one who noticed it either. Physicists noticed it first. I don't refer
to pop books here at all. Try this on for size too - I thought of this as a
kid, Bobo: in 2D you can make an INFINITE number of regular polygons, like
triangle, square, pentagon, etc. You can keep going and going and you
ALMOST reach the point where you have a circle (infinite number of
infinitely small points), but you never quite make the circle, you just make
more polygons with even MORE sides. That alone, is heh - WOW! But in 3D
you are restricted - you can only make FIVE regular polyhedrons - and the
sphere. WHY? Obviously 3D space is more restrictive than 2D space, right?
Heh. These, Bobo, were my kiddie 9 year old thoughts. I STILL wonder at
it. It is something to wonder at, too - I think. It also literally means
that you can't really REALLY get the area of a circle - not really. You can
only approximate it really really close. Even with the square, I can SHOW
you the infinite inside of the finite bar stool - it's easy. Take a bar
stool 1 foot by 1 foot. You sit on it, it's a finite object. Measure the
diagonal line in there. You can not. It's an infinite number. Try it with
any finite number like that, 2x2 3x3, any square. The diagonal line is
gonna be an INFINITE number. That to me, is a big WOW. I think people fear
that kind of stuff - I really see that - it spooks people.
Post by SOD of the CoE
#># ...There are certain things MAN does that are completely outside
#># "the flesh" for man to know or do....
# ...The "insight" on how to make fusion
# is not within our flesh to know how to do. You can "know atoms"
# [because] you ARE atoms. But your being (on the level of atoms)
# doesn't DO fusion. That is what I mean by outside our biology
# to know. We are knowing it in some OTHER way.
one might describe all of technology that way. we must be trained
to use it, it isn't inherent knowledge to us.
No no, as far as I know, neither you nor I can actually DO that kind of
thing. But some few humans CAN - and at least I know WHAT they are tuning
into when they get that kind of insight on HOW to do it. All of technology
(depends on what you call technology) is not that way. Building a house out
of wood or clay or material that is there already is a purely animal act.
Even birds make nests and then go get things to decorate and color (dye)
them. I'm not talking about the people that take a course in physics and
learn HOW to do it, either. I'm talking about the FIRST ONES who figured it
out and made it so. EG, the first person that figured out HOW to get the
volume of a sphere - before anyone knew what PI was. No one told him the
"formula." He INVENTED the formula. THAT is daimonic.
Post by SOD of the CoE
# What happens in a ghetto?
that's more interesting than just hearing how usenet is one.
# You walk and you get HASSLED, HARASSED, people try to start
# shit with you. That's this place. You ARE aware of some of
# it, but not the intensity and duration and relentlessness of
# it - and the LIBELOUS nature of ALL of it.
I must be a ghetto-dweller, used to all of it, by now, and
very familiar with the ghetto-technology, and its defenses.
there's something far more depressing and constrained within
I don't find it applies in the slightest. in fact the more I read about
how 'brutal' Satanism (from LaVeyans) the more I think usenet is more
Satanic than most other forms of cybernetic communication, blessed beast!
Well, that org has a kind of suggestion from the HP to KEEP OFF here! They
strongly suggest it, Bobo.
Post by SOD of the CoE
boboroshi at-sign satanservice.org: Satanic Outreach Director
Church of Euthanasia: http://www.churchofeuthanasia.org/
TOKUS WEBLINKS: http://dmoz.org/Bookmarks/B/boboroshi/
Ninth Scholar's Library (Satanism Archive): http://www.satanservice.org/
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emailed replies may be posted; cc replies if response desired;
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