Discussion:
In July 2001, Alabama Supreme Court Justice Roy Moore, in the cover of night, placed in the middle of a public courthouse foyer a two-ton granite display that ignited a firestorm consuming American politics and the national media for months. Lawsuits were
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MAHAGURU ISLAM KRISTEN
2008-02-15 20:15:40 UTC
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In July 2001, Alabama Supreme Court Justice Roy Moore, in the cover of
night, placed in the middle of a public courthouse foyer a two-ton granite
display that ignited a firestorm consuming American politics and the
national media for months. Lawsuits were filed, protests on both sides were
organized, and the battle over this country's destiny began.
What could cause such an ill-tempered debate on the future of religion
in American politics The 10 Commandments of course! Actually, it's hard to
believe that God's law, delivered to His people on their freedom tour of the
Middle East, could cause such an outrage. Designed specifically to give
humans a guide to peace and harmony on earth, it was turned into a smoking
platform of anger and self-righteousness. Perhaps not since the Scopes trial
of the early 20th century has America experienced such rancor over the
state-church controversy.
By the time the granite dust settled, the 10 Commandments had been
removed from the court by the order of a higher justice; furthermore, Chief
Justice Roy Moore was removed from office for unrepentantly defying the law
of the land. Yet on the day of his expulsion, the passionate judge gave a
warning to those who challenged his attempt to acknowledge God from his
chair-he'd be back! And what he planned would change the course of American
politics.
A foreboding claim, indeed, in what might appear to be the first real
thrust by Christian-backed political forces to challenge the deepening
secularization of the United States. Of course, this particular skirmish is
only a preview of a greater conflict to come that will be like nothing we
have ever experienced in this nation.
Perhaps not surprisingly, the Bible predicts who in America is going to
win this war over religion and government. But before you begin figuring
that out, you should ask yourself two questions: What side do you stand for
on this issue And are you sure that God is standing behind you The
Anti-Defamation League believes that the increasing call by private citizens
and public officials for the government to post the Ten Commandments in
schools, government buildings, courts and other public places -- while often
well-intentioned - is bad policy and often unconstitutional

But the seventh day is a Sabbath to the Lord your God; you shall not do any
work-you, your son or your daughter, your male or female slave, your
livestock, or the alien resident in your towns.

Remember the Sabbath day and keep it holy Keep the Church and State Forever
Separate

Should Students Pray in Public Schools?
The Ten Commandments Controversy:
A First Amendment Perspective
Prohibitions on Display of the Ten Commandments

The Supreme Court has long held that the government may not take any action
that endorses a specific religious belief. All of the Court's decisions
banning government support for religious activity have rested on the First
Amendment's requirement of separation of church and state. Over the years,
this precept has led the high court to ban such government practices as
organized prayer in public schools, the inclusion of creationism in public
school science classes and the sponsorship of nativity scenes by government
agencies.

In the majority of cases considering official posting of the Ten
Commandments, the Court has extended this prohibition. In its 1980 (Stone v.
Graham) decision striking down a Kentucky law requiring that a copy of the
Ten Commandments be posted in every public school classroom, the Court said:

The pre-eminent purpose for posting the Ten Commandments on schoolroom walls
is plainly religious in nature. The Ten Commandments are undeniably a sacred
text in the Jewish and Christian faiths, and no legislative recitation of a
supposed secular purpose can blind us to that fact. The Commandments do not
confine themselves to arguably secular matters, such as honoring one's
parents, killing or murder, adultery, stealing, false witness, and
covetousness. Rather, the first part of the Commandments concerns the
religious duties of believers: worshipping the Lord God alone, avoiding
idolatry, not using the Lord's name in vain, and observing the Sabbath Day.

The Court recently issued two decisions concerning official display of the
Ten Commandments with differing results. In McCreary v. ACLU of Kentucky,
the Court considered county courthouse displays of the Ten Commandments in
Kentucky. Similar to the Stone decision, it again recognized that the Ten
Commandments is ". an unmistakably religious statement dealing with
religious obligations and with morality subject to religious sanction." The
Court ultimately decided that the displays were unconstitutional because
their history and context demonstrated a clear religious purpose and intent
on the part of county officials.

In Van Orden v. Perry, the Court considered a forty-year-old granite Ten
Commandments monument on the Texas capitol grounds - one of seventeen
monuments on the broad plaza. Reaching an opposite result, the Court decided
that this display is constitutionally permissible. However, Justice Breyer,
who cast the deciding vote in the case, characterized the display as
"borderline" and found that it served "a mixed but primarily nonreligious
purpose." Significantly, as with the McCreary decision, a majority of the
Justices indicated that displays in public schools likely will be
unconstitutional. In other situations, a display or posting's location,
history and context will be critical in determining its constitutionality.

These recent decisions mean that - outside the school context - there is no
bright-line test for Ten Commandments cases. Rather, the legality of these
displays will be decided on a case-by-case basis. Many of them will be found
unconstitutional.

Of course, the First Amendment protects the right of any citizen to post the
Ten Commandments on private property and to engage in other kinds of private
religious expression. There are many places in this country where the Ten
Commandments would be welcome and appropriate - houses of worship, private
schools and universities, and private parks. Yet supporters of Ten
Commandments initiatives are willing to engage in lengthy, costly and
divisive legal battles. They ignore Justice O'Connor's recent warning in the
McCreary case that:

Allowing government to be a potential mouthpiece for competing religious
ideas risks the sort of division that might easily spill over into
suppression of rival beliefs. Tying secular and religious authority together
poses risks to both.

True religious liberty means freedom from having the government impose the
religion of the majority on all citizens. It is precisely this point that
advocates of posting the Ten Commandments are missing.

For me, the controversy raging over the display of the 10 Commandments is
not really about legality or the constitution. No. It really seems to be all
about irony.
As the news reported daily of this battle, I soon began to wonder if
anyone else was finding the whole thing paradoxical. As this huge outcry for
for the 10 Commandments to be displayed in schools, courthouses, and in
other public places reached a feverish pitch in Internet chat rooms, on
talk-radio shows, and in newsmagazines, I understood that most Christian
churches in the country still teach that all or a part of them were nailed
to the cross. (A belief that teaches the Commandments and/or their penalties
are no longer in force for Christians.)
Proponents of that stance say that America should have them on display
because they are a part of our Judeo-Christian heritage, even as they also
say that Christ did away with the Commandments when He died. In fact, some
also say He left just two new commandments with which believers should
concern themselves.
Yet this is confusing: If the Commandments are no longer in effect, why
are they, as Christians and Americans, trying to force them on every other
citizen by displaying them as a government-sanctioned artifact Also, if
Jesus did away with them, can they really be part of a common
Judeo-Christian heritage Wouldn't the most correct course of action be to
post the two new covenant commandments of Jesus for a Christian nation
On the other hand, if the 10 Commandments were so important to this
nation's Founding Fathers, why should we not be compelled to obey them
implicitly-every one of them, with or without the benefits of grace-if
America is to return to its glorious roots If the Founding Fathers
established this nation on the pillar of the 10 Commandments, might they
have reasonably expected them to be followed to the letter by likeminded
Christian citizens
Some might label me unpatriotic because I feel it necessary to point out a
fundamental flaw in the reasoning of the many Christians who want to see the
10 Commandments displayed in government institutions. Although my purpose is
not to argue the details of why this nation was founded, I do believe that
the United States plays a pivotal and wonderful role in God's plan of
salvation. As such, I love this nation as the gift from God that it is. My
heart always soars with joy when I hear our national anthem.
Yet whether or not "Christian" leaders established this country as a
"Christian" nation is not the issue. Of course, the ideals of Christianity
and Judaism should be the moral compass that guides the hearts of our
leaders. Christianity offers freedom to every human being, just as the
United States has a strong record of fighting for freedom throughout the
world.
However, I don't think America is responsible for spreading God's
end-time message to the world. Rather, America is here to protect His
church, so she can take the gospel to every people and nation. I believe
this is why America has acquired such undisputable power, unprecedented in
the history of the world. Its economical and political influence protects
God's last-day church from tyrant governments and unwanted political
intervention, enabling it to freely spread the good news to people all
around the world. God would surely bless such a nation.
Some Christians boldly claim that they want the Commandments displayed
as a way to get God back into America, in addition to prayer in schools and
in Congress. But is that really safe Is the government the right power to
tell us what is right and wrong morally Surely we are blessed that our laws
reflect the basic principles of God's Commandments; that's a very real
comfort to even non-Christians. But by separating church and state, we are
assured that no religious power will have the authority to override the
conscience of those who might believe otherwise, suppressing the religious
beliefs of another church. Yet well-meaning but misguided Christians who
want to smash the wall of separation of church and state will turn the
blessings of this country on their head and lead America into a terrible
disaster.

Frankly, this nation hasn't lost its way because the government or strident
humanists seek separation of church and state, forbidding the government
display of Commandments; it's lost its way because more and more of her
people's hearts are seeking separation from God in their everyday living. It's
not secular government that's sending this nation down the sewer of moral
decay; it's secularized hearts!
Make no mistake; everything about the 10 Commandments speaks of
religion. It just cannot be displayed as mere history, because any person
who sees it, Christian or heathen, will understand its towering religious
significance. It is so powerful that an atheist will feel its influence in a
chamber of justice on the other side of the building and truly believe he
has no fair shot because of his or her beliefs. And Christians need to
understand this about God's law: It is not just a statue to display in
public, like a costume from a famous movie. It affects everybody's lives,
even the unbelievers', whether they want it to or not.
Likewise, every Christian acknowledges that the Commandments come
directly from the hand of God. "And he gave unto Moses . two tables of
testimony, tables of stone, written with the finger of God" (Exodus 31:18).
They are religious laws, period. The government of man has no real power or
mandate to enforce them-they are enforced solely by God's omnipresence,
universal power, and wisdom. And yet far too many Christians are
secularizing their own hearts to God's Commandments, believing the
government plays a part in the task He has given to each individual. We
should not attempt to use the government to spread God's message-we should
be using our own voices and the example of our lives. What example
Reflecting the spirit of the 10 Commandments.
So as some clamor about the separation of church and state, they still
yet deny with their hearts and mouths the ultimate authority of God's law.
They lift up the Commandments without any intention of honoring them
completely-the very definition of a form of godliness without power.
Shouldn't Christians in this country be more concerned about obeying
those Commandments than making them a historical display on the walls in our
halls of justice Shouldn't we stop treating God's law as an idol of
government, but instead as the living, fulfilled testimony of Jesus Christ
The answer to these questions is yes, yes, yes! And here is why.

Any healthy debate among Christians about God's law must begin with how God
Himself defines the terms. Without this step, it's impossible to find a
biblical consensus. Yet by letting God define our terms in this discussion,
it won't take long to realize that the evidence compelling us to obey His
Commandments today, in the new covenant faith, is overwhelming.
Here are 10 indisputable facts, or definitions, about the 10
Commandments from the Old and New Testaments-two witnesses, or dictionaries,
of God's message to humanity.

1.
God wrote the 10 Commandments. "And the tables were the work of God,
and the writing was the writing of God, graven upon the tables" (Exodus
32:16).

2.
They are eternal, meaning they will not change or be erased. "All his
commandments are sure. They stand fast forever and ever" (Psalm 89:34).




3.
They are perfect as they are. "The law of the Lord is perfect" (Psalm
19). If they were perfect, would their function or purpose need to change

4.
We'll die if we break them. "He poured out his life unto death .
[bearing] the sin of many." (Isaiah 13:9). Satan was first to convince a
human otherwise.

5.
It is our job to obey them. "Fear God, and keep his commandments: for
this is the whole duty of man" (Ecclesiastes 12:13).


These first five points are taken from the Old Testament. Many of those
who want to display the Commandments argue that the laws are an old covenant
relic meant for the Jews, and Christians aren't subject to them because they
are outmoded in our relationship with Jesus. Although points 2 and 3 each
seem to shatter this argument, we'll see later from the New Testament that
Jesus also denied the claim that the Commandments have been nullified.
But first, this viewpoint contradicts one major reason given to
showcase the Commandments in schools and other government-run institutions;
that being, we have a government established on Judeo-Christian principles
and displaying them is simply honoring that. If we live in contradiction to
the Commandments, merely displaying them as a testimony of past government,
it is hollow praise at best. We shouldn't treat God's law with such
diminished value!
At worst, it is hypocrisy. For if we tell non-believers we want to
honor our Judeo heritage, and then claim that actually following its
principles is no longer important in a saving relationship with God, what
other message could that send It seems logical to conclude that to honor our
Jewish heritage, we would honor the 10 Commandments in our lives and hearts.
(In addition, displaying a religious icon to honor our past is in fact a
sincere endorsement of those principles-something God has asked us to do,
not an earthly government.)
But the New Testament, even after Jesus' death, doesn't regard the law
itself any differently than the Old Testament. In fact, it is easy to
conclude that the New Testament also affirms that God's law is forever and
ever.

6.
Breaking them is still wrong. "Sin is the transgression of the law" (1
John 3:4).

7.
Humanity still needs them. "I had not known sin, but by the law: for I
had not known lust, except the law said, Thou shall not covet" (Romans 7:7).




8.
Obeying them is still a sign of loyalty. "If ye love me, keep my
commandments" (John 14:15).

9.
They are still eternal. "It is easier for heaven and earth to pass,
than one tittle of the law to fail" (Luke 16:17). Jesus exalted them! God
established the law with His own voice; might it need Jesus' voice to do
away with them Yet He never does, before or after His death!

10.
They are still perfect. "Think not that I come to destroy the law . but
to fulfill" (Matthew 5:17, 18). Jesus did not change any part of them.


It's clear that Jesus wants us to keep the laws of God-the 10
Commandments-and I believe He is dismayed at the hollow gesture of
displaying them in our government halls and not in our outward lives. Jesus
continued to call the Commandments "laws," and He never defined them
differently. So this next verse is a clear message: "Whoever shall keep the
whole law, and yet offend in one point, he is guilty of all" (James 2:10).
Of course, Jesus also obeyed them exactly the way they were intended,
so Christians surely cannot conclude that they are not meant to follow them
as Jesus followed them. Isn't that what Christians are-a reflection of
Christ.





Reference:

© 2005 Anti-Defamation League; http://www.adl.org/10comm/print.asp; © 2008
Anti-Defamation League. All rights reserved. The Anti-Defamation League is a
not-for-profit organization recognized as tax-exempt under Internal Revenue
Code section 501(c)(3).

· http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Ten_Commandments; This
page was last modified 21:02, 30 January 2008.

· All text is available under the terms of the GNU Free
Documentation License. (See Copyrights for details.)
Wikipedia® is a registered trademark of the Wikimedia Foundation, Inc., a
U.S. registered 501(c)(3) tax-deductible nonprofit charity.

Annie Laurie Gaylor. Copyright 1995 by the Freedom From Religion Foundation,
Inc., PO Box 750, Madison, WI 53701 (608) 256-8900



1. "Kentucky school board reposts Ten Commandments" at:
http://www.mcjonline.com/news/00b/20010102b.htm

2. Laurence Cruz, "Commandments bill defeated: Schools will
not be allowed to display the biblical doctrine," Statesman Journal, at:
http://news.statesmanjournal.com/article.cfm?i=24194

3. Rachel Kovner, "Ten Commandments in schools OK's in
Senate," The Charlotte Observer, 2001-JUL-18.

4. Mark Niesse, "Chief Justice unveils Ten Commandments in
[Alabama] Supreme Court building," Associated Press, at:
http://news.findlaw.com/ap_stories/l

5. American Atheists, newsletter, 2001-AUG-3

6. "Alabama congressman prepares to introduce patently
unconstitutional 'Ten Commandments Defense Act," Americans United news
release, 2001-AUG-23

7. "Ga. Town Posts Ten Commandments," Assocaited Press,
2001-SEP-25, at: http://news.findlaw.com/ap_stories/other/

8. The Ten Commandments, or Decalogue, are a list of religious
and moral imperatives that according to religious tradition, were written by
God and given to Moses on the mountain referred to as "Mount Sinai" (Exodus
19:23) or "Mount Horeb" (Deuteronomy 5:2) in the form of two stone tablets.
James Beck
2008-02-15 20:24:11 UTC
Permalink
<Snipped a lot of stuff>
Post by MAHAGURU ISLAM KRISTEN
Here are 10 indisputable facts, or definitions, about the 10
Commandments from the Old and New Testaments-two witnesses, or dictionaries,
of God's message to humanity.
1.
God wrote the 10 Commandments. "And the tables were the work of God,
and the writing was the writing of God, graven upon the tables" (Exodus
32:16).
Really?
I love the phrase "indisputable facts".
Does he/she/it have a copyright on it?
Maybe he had a (holy)ghost writer.
Maybe there is no proof that 'god' did anything.
You kinda' had my interest right up to here, or am I not understanding
this part of the post?

Jim
David V.
2008-02-15 21:41:21 UTC
Permalink
Post by MAHAGURU ISLAM KRISTEN
In July 2001, Alabama Supreme Court Justice Roy Moore, in the cover of
night, placed in the middle of a public courthouse foyer a two-ton granite
display....
And he should have been removed from the bench for such an
asinine act.
--
Dave

You measure a democracy by the freedom it gives its dissidents,
not the freedom it gives its assimilated conformists.
- Abbie Hoffman
Mike
2008-02-16 15:27:26 UTC
Permalink
Post by MAHAGURU ISLAM KRISTEN
As the news reported daily of this battle, I soon began to wonder if
anyone else was finding the whole thing paradoxical. As this huge outcry for
for the 10 Commandments to be displayed in schools, courthouses, and in
other public places reached a feverish pitch in Internet chat rooms, on
talk-radio shows, and in newsmagazines, I understood that most Christian
churches in the country still teach that all or a part of them were nailed
to the cross. (A belief that teaches the Commandments and/or their penalties
are no longer in force for Christians.)
So xians CAN steal, lie, even kill now days? Boy, that almost makes me
want to become an xian. </sarcasm>

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