Discussion:
Temples of Satan (ToS), Turner and Clergy
(too old to reply)
SOD of the CoE
2005-05-11 00:15:29 UTC
Permalink
There was no plot to keep information from you. You can (and will, I
have no doubt) continue to blame others for your own reputation in
Satanism.
the only reputation thusfar I've seen has come from you. this seems
to primarily involve a handful of people of little consequence.
The only time you were limited as far as access was when you
were placed under a censure order by your upper clergy because of your
actions in forums such as this one.
this is one of the reasons that "Satanic orgs" are bogus: they make
their best efforts to *represent Satanism* and constrain membership.
this is how orgs are parasitic to individuals and as part of the
overt study of Satanism some knowledge of how religions do this
(study of cults and religious sociology) is extremely helpful.
For years, those of us that you
trusted and trusted you, tried to get you to understand that your
efforts were further alienating you among Satanists.
striking off away from organizations is admirable, and far more
Satanic than complaining about wayward org-members, as you are
here doing. of course you also mention Mr. Turner's complaints,
which is in fact relevant, but seem to be posturing techniques.
What you have
called 'marketing' is not having the effect you wanted. I find it
intensely odd that you would call others 'liars' considering your
posting record in forums including this one. When we decided to
resign, there were only a handful of members left.
apparently resignation from "Temples of Satan" whatever
this was or is. who is left in these "Temples"? is there
an accurate history of this association somewhere written?
They either went
their seperate way or stayed with the clergy that they had come to
know. Even when you were not under a censure order, you never utilized
the forums that we had to communicate with the members. I told you
this offline on many occasions. I kept saying that your efforts would
be better spent explaining your ideas to those that were inside your
own group, but you continued to choose to focus your energy outside of
it. I do not think it is necessary to argue whether or not the things
you say are truth or not. Your record in forums like this speaks for
itself. You had many great ideas when things began, but none of us
have any idea what happened to these. If you think this was all some
elaborate plot to overthrow you, consider the fact that we did not
attempt to take your group from you. After you came to us with all
these new changes and claims of control of the ONA, we asked for
details. We wanted to see the documents, etc. We gave you weeks to
provide these to the clergy. You avoided our requests.
this is the way of many empowering organizations: they allow for the
possibility of being usurped by the egotistic and willful member.
almost NONE of these orgs truly make such usurpation possible, and
instead attempt to excommunicate (a la Roman Catholics) the member
who was "offending" or make overtures explaining how that member is
not representative. usually they are consolidating and hierarchic.

the issue really is REPRESENTATION and how it functions in religion
and in Satanism generally (which is arguably anti-religion).
Your sudden
new direction was not one that the clergy wanted to go in. None of us
held back in that respect and, we were very clear on our position of
being opposed to the changes you were discussing.
what changes were being discussed?
The fact that you
are starting an arguement over a few members that remained is amazing.
it isn't at all amazing given the usual people involved with
Satanism -- egotistic, narcissistic, social failures, etc.
According to one of your responses to me upon resigning, you mentioned
that you were getting thousands of applications. If this is the case,
why do you care what happens to the few members that were left in the
ToS at the time of our resignation? You were well aware of the exodus
of our members from the ToS, but you did not want to listen to the
reasons this was happening and, in fact, continued to act in ways that
fueled it further. All these actions were termed 'marketing' by you in
communications to myself and other clergy. Well, they are not working.
LOL! that's calling them as one sees them!
We all told you they would not and that we disagreed with your
methods. You are claiming now that the ToS is exploding with new
growth.
it is customary, after the examples of the CoS (Church of Satan)
and ToS (Temple of Set) to do things like this, yes. this appears
to be a direct attempt to struggle with the Temple of Set --
primarily by using their abbreviation in correspondence. the step
to "Reformed Church of Satan" ties the knot rather precisely
around the LaVey-Aquino camouflage and represents an obsession
with disrupting media rather than an expression of strict genius.
If this is true, be happy about it and move on. As for you
calling us liars, I find that funny considering the fact that this
string was begun by a lie. This Devon person was never a member of the
ToS while any of us were clergy of the group. Her writing style is
strangely familiar ;) All members of the ToS were instructed to
contact you directly at your website if they wanted to remain with the
ToS. That choice was up to them. You had a very long time to get to
know your own members and access to do so via our forums. The fact
that you did not make the effort to do so is no one's fault but your
own.
amusing.
Why would anyone stay in a group where the head of that group
only spoke outside of it and in ways that alienated that group more
with every post?
individualists? non-Herd-members? those with backbone?
Anyway, you say the ToS is now flourshing under new
leadership...so why do you care about those that left because of
difference in direction?
as with the focus on the ToS, the Departure Treason is always
of import to revenge-based ethical systems. the focus on
cursing and the competitive edge are important aspects of the
adversarialism played out by modern Satanists, often without
much more ontologically present than some statistical lies
and a desire to impress.
Personally, Ive lost count of the times I
have heard you say that you did not care at all about those that choose
to leave...
it is a means of recontextualizing the statement. a posturing feint.
if you hang around in public forums where people use expertise in
argumentation then you may learn some of these techniques. until
then, you'll just suffer as a victim of their use within the
Toddler Forums in your knowledge to whose moderated pablum
you've been invited. in the wilds of usenet this is daily fare,
and one of the reasons that alt.satanism is FEARED BY ORGS, as
it cannot be *controlled* (oh no!) and nobody can *moderate*
(the horrors!). ignore the fact that the reader is perfectly
empowered to select or deselect reading materials and posters.
yet when people do leave, you always react in this fashion
by attacking them for it.
of course, more treason-response from those attached to appearances.
I agree that the truth is out there, but it
is certainly not coming from you on the subjects of the ToS,
you expect that it might, given that it competes for attention
with and masquerades under the acronym of "ToS"? LOL!
its members, former members, clergy, or former clergy.
mimicry of the Setian Temple with real connects to Satan?
it is rather amusing overall, and should be analyzed with
all of this in mind. all other analysis is infantile and
ignorant, from what I can see.

blessed beast!

boboroshi at-sign satanservice.org: Satanic Outreach Director
Church of Euthanasia: http://www.churchofeuthanasia.org/
TOKUS WEBLINKS: http://dmoz.org/Bookmarks/B/boboroshi/
Ninth Scholar's Library (Satanism Archive): http://www.satanservice.org/
SOD of the CoE
2005-05-11 00:21:06 UTC
Permalink
you know what tom... YOUR clergy has left you now what twice....now
from what i can take of it... not all these people can be wrong.
where individualism and narcissism collide, everybody is wrong.
We had
to censure you while we built ToS because you couldnt keep your mouth
shut, when you decided to let yourself off censure (which i was
against) I watched the membership decline from over a hundred people
to 12 in the matter of a month.
what exhibits the value of an expression: that it is believed?
that it looks pretty? that it generates a willing Herd of ingrates?
Its hard for anyone to respect any
person that cant even communicate without making counteless errors both
in spelling and grammar without having someone to fix up their
articles.
this issue (literateness) is a huge divider in the Neopagan/Satanist
communities because there is an inherent mistrust of the "People of
the Book" (books-as-mind-traps, exemplified by "The Bible", "The
Koran", "The Book of the Law", and "The Satanic Bible"), and with
*very* good reason.

literateness does often tell whether one is illiterate *or*
dyslexic, but literacy is *not* a guarantee of liberation.
this latter point is lost on my ignorant plebes.
you cant "sell" your ideas about satanism to everyone. Most
of them know your reputation and wont give you a second look.
consider why this advice is being given or received.

blessed beast!

boboroshi at-sign satanservice.org: Satanic Outreach Director
Church of Euthanasia: http://www.churchofeuthanasia.org/
TOKUS WEBLINKS: http://dmoz.org/Bookmarks/B/boboroshi/
Ninth Scholar's Library (Satanism Archive): http://www.satanservice.org/
SOD of the CoE
2005-05-11 00:23:54 UTC
Permalink
...Why have you avoided responding to me directly, one on one?
you're killfiled and unimportant?
expounding in public is more important than engaging in dialogues?
alt.satanism is the "ghetto of cyberspace"??
Have your tactics on alt and other forums ever worked for you
in a positive way? Be honest with yourself. I do not expect
you to respond to me directly in private, but I have been
surprised on occasion before.
have your discussion here. be brave, risk ridicule.

blessed beast!

boboroshi at-sign satanservice.org: Satanic Outreach Director
Church of Euthanasia: http://www.churchofeuthanasia.org/
TOKUS WEBLINKS: http://dmoz.org/Bookmarks/B/boboroshi/
Ninth Scholar's Library (Satanism Archive): http://www.satanservice.org/
Visscher
2005-05-26 06:55:21 UTC
Permalink
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Post by SOD of the CoE
There was no plot to keep information from you. You can (and will, I
have no doubt) continue to blame others for your own reputation in
Satanism.
the only reputation thusfar I've seen has come from you. this seems
to primarily involve a handful of people of little consequence.
The only time you were limited as far as access was when you
were placed under a censure order by your upper clergy because of your
actions in forums such as this one.
this is one of the reasons that "Satanic orgs" are bogus: they make
their best efforts to *represent Satanism* and constrain membership.
this is how orgs are parasitic to individuals and as part of the
overt study of Satanism some knowledge of how religions do this
(study of cults and religious sociology) is extremely helpful.
For years, those of us that you
trusted and trusted you, tried to get you to understand that your
efforts were further alienating you among Satanists.
striking off away from organizations is admirable, and far more
Satanic than complaining about wayward org-members, as you are
here doing. of course you also mention Mr. Turner's complaints,
which is in fact relevant, but seem to be posturing techniques.
What you have
called 'marketing' is not having the effect you wanted. I find it
intensely odd that you would call others 'liars' considering your
posting record in forums including this one. When we decided to
resign, there were only a handful of members left.
apparently resignation from "Temples of Satan" whatever
this was or is. who is left in these "Temples"? is there
an accurate history of this association somewhere written?
They either went
their seperate way or stayed with the clergy that they had come to
know. Even when you were not under a censure order, you never utilized
the forums that we had to communicate with the members. I told you
this offline on many occasions. I kept saying that your efforts would
be better spent explaining your ideas to those that were inside your
own group, but you continued to choose to focus your energy outside of
it. I do not think it is necessary to argue whether or not the things
you say are truth or not. Your record in forums like this speaks for
itself. You had many great ideas when things began, but none of us
have any idea what happened to these. If you think this was all some
elaborate plot to overthrow you, consider the fact that we did not
attempt to take your group from you. After you came to us with all
these new changes and claims of control of the ONA, we asked for
details. We wanted to see the documents, etc. We gave you weeks to
provide these to the clergy. You avoided our requests.
this is the way of many empowering organizations: they allow for the
possibility of being usurped by the egotistic and willful member.
almost NONE of these orgs truly make such usurpation possible, and
instead attempt to excommunicate (a la Roman Catholics) the member
who was "offending" or make overtures explaining how that member is
not representative. usually they are consolidating and hierarchic.
the issue really is REPRESENTATION and how it functions in religion
and in Satanism generally (which is arguably anti-religion).
Your sudden
new direction was not one that the clergy wanted to go in. None of us
held back in that respect and, we were very clear on our position of
being opposed to the changes you were discussing.
what changes were being discussed?
The fact that you
are starting an arguement over a few members that remained is amazing.
it isn't at all amazing given the usual people involved with
Satanism -- egotistic, narcissistic, social failures, etc.
According to one of your responses to me upon resigning, you mentioned
that you were getting thousands of applications. If this is the case,
why do you care what happens to the few members that were left in the
ToS at the time of our resignation? You were well aware of the exodus
of our members from the ToS, but you did not want to listen to the
reasons this was happening and, in fact, continued to act in ways that
fueled it further. All these actions were termed 'marketing' by you in
communications to myself and other clergy. Well, they are not working.
LOL! that's calling them as one sees them!
We all told you they would not and that we disagreed with your
methods. You are claiming now that the ToS is exploding with new
growth.
it is customary, after the examples of the CoS (Church of Satan)
and ToS (Temple of Set) to do things like this, yes. this appears
to be a direct attempt to struggle with the Temple of Set --
primarily by using their abbreviation in correspondence. the step
to "Reformed Church of Satan" ties the knot rather precisely
around the LaVey-Aquino camouflage and represents an obsession
with disrupting media rather than an expression of strict genius.
If this is true, be happy about it and move on. As for you
calling us liars, I find that funny considering the fact that this
string was begun by a lie. This Devon person was never a member of the
ToS while any of us were clergy of the group. Her writing style is
strangely familiar ;) All members of the ToS were instructed to
contact you directly at your website if they wanted to remain with the
ToS. That choice was up to them. You had a very long time to get to
know your own members and access to do so via our forums. The fact
that you did not make the effort to do so is no one's fault but your
own.
amusing.
Why would anyone stay in a group where the head of that group
only spoke outside of it and in ways that alienated that group more
with every post?
individualists? non-Herd-members? those with backbone?
Anyway, you say the ToS is now flourshing under new
leadership...so why do you care about those that left because of
difference in direction?
as with the focus on the ToS, the Departure Treason is always
of import to revenge-based ethical systems. the focus on
cursing and the competitive edge are important aspects of the
adversarialism played out by modern Satanists, often without
much more ontologically present than some statistical lies
and a desire to impress.
Personally, Ive lost count of the times I
have heard you say that you did not care at all about those that choose
to leave...
it is a means of recontextualizing the statement. a posturing feint.
if you hang around in public forums where people use expertise in
argumentation then you may learn some of these techniques. until
then, you'll just suffer as a victim of their use within the
Toddler Forums in your knowledge to whose moderated pablum
you've been invited. in the wilds of usenet this is daily fare,
and one of the reasons that alt.satanism is FEARED BY ORGS, as
it cannot be *controlled* (oh no!) and nobody can *moderate*
(the horrors!). ignore the fact that the reader is perfectly
empowered to select or deselect reading materials and posters.
yet when people do leave, you always react in this fashion
by attacking them for it.
of course, more treason-response from those attached to appearances.
I agree that the truth is out there, but it
is certainly not coming from you on the subjects of the ToS,
you expect that it might, given that it competes for attention
with and masquerades under the acronym of "ToS"? LOL!
its members, former members, clergy, or former clergy.
mimicry of the Setian Temple with real connects to Satan?
it is rather amusing overall, and should be analyzed with
all of this in mind. all other analysis is infantile and
ignorant, from what I can see.
blessed beast!
boboroshi at-sign satanservice.org: Satanic Outreach Director
Church of Euthanasia: http://www.churchofeuthanasia.org/
TOKUS WEBLINKS: http://dmoz.org/Bookmarks/B/boboroshi/
Ninth Scholar's Library (Satanism Archive): http://www.satanservice.org/
si
2005-06-18 06:12:48 UTC
Permalink
Ehhh....and you lot wonder how the Catholic church got so corrupted???

See...happens when any organisation gets big enough. Doesn't matter what
church it is.

What leads to corruption is egos flying around and the politics of a big
organisation. Human nature is what leads to corruption.

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