Moody's Churches and Resocialization Theory (Satanism and Magical Therapy)

Bobo, Ole's paper states a lot of this in a much clearer fashion. You have
it in pdf.

Post by SOD of the CoE
---------------------------------------------------
Notes and Excerpts in Reflection on Academic Text
Moody's Churches and Resocialization Theory
---------------------------------------------------
"Religious Movements in Contemporary America",
by Irving I. Zaretsky and Mark P. Leone,
and primarily the written expression of
An Anthropological Investigation of
Contemporary Satanism";
the whole published by Princeton University Press, 1974.
===========================================================================
Section Introduction
"Psychological Dimensions of Religious Innovation"
p 281-2 "Moody argues that today there is a revival of
black magic and Satanism in contemporary
America among many sectors of the population.
By membership in Satanic groups individuals
make themselves the target of the community's
scorn and aggression. Why then do individuals
persist? They persist because the magic
"works" by helping them achieve the goals
they desire. He analyzes the magical rituals
such as the Invocation of Lust and the
Shibboleth to show how they help practicing
Satanists, members of the Church of the
Trapezoid, to achieve their goals.
"Moody points out the kind of therapy offered
by this group and examines its results. He
explains the rituals of the Satanic church in
terms of models taken from behavioral
psychology, because he feels that much of
what goes on in Satanic rituals is explained
better in terms of short term behavior change
than by psychoanalytic and anthropological
models. He argues that this religious group
absorbs the deviants that society shuts out.
These are people who sometimes have not left
society or dropped out but have been shut
out. In that sense Satanists resocialize
those shut out by the dominant society. Some
of the groups' [sic] value are not really too
distant from the culture's values. Such
groups are replays of the dominant cultural
value system."
------------------------------------------------------
Edward J. Moody
"Magical Therapy: An Anthropological Investigation
of Contemporary Satanism"
quotations below are from pages 355-382.
p 355 "There is a revival of Black Magic and Satanism
in the West at the present time. Many well-
educated individuals are practicing the Black
Arts. In so doing they make themselves the
target of the community's scorn and aggression.
Why do they persist? They persist because
their magic "works" by helping them to
achieve the goals they desire. This paper
attempts to indicate how magical rituals such
as the Invocation of Lust and the Shibboleth
Ritual help practicing Satanists, members of
the Church of the Trapezoid[1], to accomplish
their desires."
----------------------
my notes from his text, mostly quoted terms/phrases/sections
follow and I recommend the interested pick up a copy of the book.
I obtained one easily, referred to it now twice by Lewis.
p 355; "the Goat God"; "the Baphomet" (same?);
"young girl" altar supine;
"the First Church of the Trapezoid, the
Church of Satan, San Francisco, California.";
"the Black Arts of witchcraft and magic";
"the ancient art of Black Magic";
p 356 "I joined the First Church of Satan. For two
years I was an active member of the group";
"*how* magic "works," ...is the subject of this
paper";
"the Church of the Trapezoid and its members";
p 357 "Black Magic and Satanism are not new phenomena,
even in the West";
p 358 "[The] characterization of persons accused of
witchcraft in other cultures is a surprisingly
accurate depiction of many if not all the
Satanists I encountered";
"They ... turn to witchcraft out of envy and
frustration";
"Why do some turn to the Church of Satan,
to Black Magic and the Occult?";
p 362 [astrology, an] esoteric science;
other types of Magic [than astrology!];
"Black Magic ... Anton LaVey and the First Church
of the Trapezoid";
p 364 "the Church of the Trapezoid";
"the pre-Satanist"; "the would-be Satanist";
"Black Magic provides a solution [to his
problems, identified as to source as the
evaluative system, an essentially Judeo-
Christian system of his culture]";
"It solves the problem of the fragmented self,
of guilt, of inadequacy, of anxiety, of lack
of success, and it solves them 'magically'";
"social ineptitude, lack of explanation for
his failure and the success of others";
"... astrology and card reading -- "magic in
sports clothes" as the High Priest Anton
LaVey would say -- to serious magic.";
"lack of power"; "anxiety [lowered], maladaptive
responses extinguished, appropriate responses
conditioned [reform church!] through the ritual
of the Satanic Church, and Black Magic rituals.";
"The would-be Satanist asks, "Is there a secret to
success?" Anton LaVey, High Priest and sorcerer,
responds, "Of course, magic." The pre-Satanist asks
"Will you teach me?" LaVey replies, "If you are
p 365 worthy." series of tests and interviews, then one may
be asked to become a "member of the elite Inner
Circle";
the newbie is instructed that he is "evil"; "the
definition of evil is changed, it is a tenet of
the Satanic Theology that evil is relative to the
time and place in which the deed is done";
"and only when one feels guilty about doing
something is he really "doing wrong." The Satanists
persuade their adherents that the Judeo-Christian
value system was a trick perpetrated on our
forefathers. It is the position of the Satanic
church that the "white light magicians"
(Christians) made sins of natural human impulses
in order to be srue that people would transgress.
They then, by making salvation dependent on
belief in Christianity, "hooked" the population
and made them dependent upon the Christian church
for freedom from fear. The Satanists by contrast,
persuade their new members to revel in their own
humanity, to give free reign to their natural
impulses and indulge their appetites without fear
or guilt. Members are constantly reminded that
man is the human *animal*, and members are
encouraged to throw off the shackles of
Christianity and rediscover the joy of living.
"Evil" is redefined as human, free, unafraid,
and joyful.";
"symbolic image of the witch"; "more animal-like,
less social";
p 366 "In the Western tradition, the Devil clearly
stands midway between the completely animal (or
physical) and the completely human (or
spiritual). He has a mixture of animal and human
parts: he is hermaphroditic with a man's torso
but a woman's breasts, with human arms but animal
legs. He is the symbol of confusion between the
animal and the spiritual."
"[The Satanists] deliberately set out to be the
antithesis of Christianity, preaching indulgence
rather than meekness, worldly rather than other-
worldly orientation.";
"They preach power rather than weakness and
depict the image of the crucified Christ as
"pallid incompetence nailed to a tree.";
p 367 Black Mass; "It is for people [who still
cower in guilt and fear before the charismatic
power of the symbols of Christianity.";
"[The Black Mass] is a blasphemy.";
"The purpose of blasphemy is to bring about a
change in the Satanists' responses (decondition)
[AUTHOR'S NOTE:]
"Wallace: "All ritual is directed toward
the problem of transformations of state
in human beings or nature"...
In some cases [the Satanists] describe the
[ritual effects desired] in terms of magic,
at other times their explanation is very
sociological.
[of anxiety or fear to a given stimulus]";
"The traditional Black Mass parodies the
Christian Mass using urine for communion wine,
a beet rubbed in vaginal fluid for the wafer and
so on. The cross is hung upside down, and in some
cults was and is used for other bizarre purposes
of a sexual nature. A naked female was and is the
altar, and in some instances the mass itself is
ridiculed, the "Lord's Prayer" is recited
backward, obscene phrases chanted in Latin, and
so on."
p 368 "In some rituals, aggression, another
antithetical response [as compared to disgust,
such as when consuing the above substances]
against the symbols is encouraged, breaking them,
urinating on them, and yet another non-anxiety
response is conditioned.";
[A member with conservative Christian
upbringing, used as an example] had not [yet]
been taught the "magical" power to attract and
win females. To accomplish this he was instructed
in both Greater and Lesser Magic....";
p 369 "resocialization"
p 370 "Each ritual is performed before the "altar
of flesh," the naked body of some young and
usually attractive young witch (different witches
play this role each week).";
systematic desensitization;
p 371 "the Church of the Trapezoid";
"he was instructed in both Greater and Lesser
Magic concerning the Invocation of Lust and the
other phenomena associated with
heterosexuality.";
"Greater and Lesser Magic are rleatively easy to
distinguish. Greater Magic is ritual magic in
which the purposes of the ritual are usually
specific, the structure of the ritual formalized
[special setting and time] and the magical
rationale for the success or failure of the
ritual codified. Lesser Magic is a type of magic
used to bring the results one wants in *daily*
interactions with others in the *workaday*
world.";
"poorly socialized individuals ... unaware of ...
subtle... unwritten (societal) rules";
p 372 "As "Lesser Magic," the type of magical
knowledge taught may range from how to flatter a
girl to how to dress and groom oneself in order
to be attractive to others.";
"the Greater Magic he learned initially took the
form of Love Magic. He was instructed in the art
of preparing a love amulet and conjuring lust in
his love object. Preparing a love amulet is a
rather difficult and time-consuming thing to do.
Exotic or rare ingredients must be gathered and
ritually combined accordingly in a special setting";
p 373 "First the theory of love magic is explained
to him. He is taught that every individual gives
off "vibrations" of one kind or another. To be
successful as a lover you must transform yourself
into a love magnet by focussing and concentrating
these emanations. You must make yourself attractive
to others, a "magnetic personality." ... The
Satanists, both male and female, are taught good
grooming, social graces, how to indicate interest
to another, and many other social techniques which
many of us take for granted. They are taught to
emphasize and capitalize on some characteristic of
theirs that is appealing to others. Males and
females both are taught how to give off an aura
of mystery, or of power, or even of helplessness
if that is the technique best suited to their
personality." [see "The Satanic Witch"]
"the Satanic ritual can be modified for a variety
of special purposes"; weekly, compared with
Communion/Mass;
p 374 "Love magic ... involves the use of certain
ritual objects, the preparation of certain
types of candles, parchments, and so on.";
p 376 "Satanic theology encourages rather than
discourages the Satanist's aggressiveness, but
teaches him to be discriminating about the targets
of his aggression. Only deserving victims are to
be the targets of aggressive magic, only people
against whom one has the right to feel hostile.";
"The modern witch ... directs his aggression
against those individuals who have behaved badly
toward him/her.";
"When an individual wants the group's help in
cursing an enemy, he must persuade the group that
his grievance is just.";
p 378 "The who has cursed a person then waits
patiently for the inevitable destruction to
descend on his victim. The curse is not
usually designed to cause death.";
"During the course of the evening [at the
Shibboleth ritual] the Satanist is required to
act like, think like, talk like, and in fact "be"
[the person whom he least understands or who
causes him the most difficulty in life]";
p 379 "Rituals in which the animal nature of man,
the similarity between his behavior and that of
the animals, is demonstrated by delibrants [sic,
s/b "celebrants"] dressed as men with animal
heads who perform animalistically in the ritual,
gradually shifting back and forth from human to animal.";
"Ideological Rituals"; the Black Mass can also be
seen as such [alongside that lycanthropic above];
p 380 "Magic Transformation" (for concealment);
"The member is taught that those fearful of
his great power will attempt to destroy him
if possible just as some of his predecessors
were destroyed. He is taught that though he
may be a powerful magician, he must used his
magic not only to protect himself but to take
advantage of the stupid and insensitive
non-magicians of the world. It would be
unwise, he is told, to flaunt that fact in
the faces of the fearful. Instead it is
smarter and better magic to turn their fear
and your power to your own advantage.";
p 381 "The Satanists preach indulgence of all
desires, but the indulgences they enjoy are
confined to the Satanic context and are never
forced on unwilling victims."
p 382 [Moody's Summary] "The Satanist is training
himself to be assertive and powerful "as an
individual*. Although he draws a sense of security
from his association with powerful forces, he is
finding inner sources of strength. He is casting
off the need for powerful gods to protect and
care for him, insisting that he is strong enough
to take care of himself. He commands the gods and
does not beseech them. He is turning from an
ethereal and other-worldly orientation to a
somewhat more realistic assessment and concern
with the mundane and real world.";
"the Church of the Trapezoid".
====================================================================
References Listed of Note
(from the *excellent and extensive bibliography!!!!)
p 819
Moody, Edward James
Lecturer, The Queen's University at Belfast, Ireland.
For two and a half years he was a member of the
First Church of Satan [sic!] in San Francisco doing
participant observation; and for four years he
conducted research with individuals practicing
various forms of magical ritual. Part of 1972 was
spent researching exorcism in London, England.
==============================
other references (by date)
==============================
1908
Hartland, E. Sidney
"Satanism" in Encyclopedia of Religion and Ethics,
ed. by J. Hastings; NY Scribner.
1941
Casey, Robert P.
"Transient Cults" in Psychiatry #4:525-534. [??]
1954
Rhodes, H.T.F.
The Satanic Mass
[several hits on this title by Rhodes!!]
1962
Leon Cristiani
Evidences of Satan in the Modern World [??]
1968
Levin, Jay
"The Magic Explosion" in Eye #1:24-29, 80-84, 84.
[pertains to CoS? ?? ]
1969
Dodson, Victor
Devil Sex [??]
Robson, Peter
The Devil's Own [??]
1970
Lyons, Arthur
The Second Coming: Satanism in America
[how is this title different than "Satan Wants You"?]
Marty, Martin
"The Occult Establishment" in Social Research #37(2):212-230.
Pileggi, Nicholas
"Occult" in McCalls #97:62-65, 140.
Truzzi, Marcello
Some Random Observations on the Old and
the Nouveau Witch" in Sociological Quarterly #13:16-36. [2]
from pp 281-2, 355-382, 771-813 (Bibliography), & 819 in Zaretsky/Leone.
===============================================================================
NOTES
--------------------------------------------------------------------------
[1] - editor's note: the reference to the Satanist external and interior
social body identifier ('Church of Satan', 'First Church of Satan',
'Church of the Trapezoid', 'First Church of the Trapezoid') shifts
occasionally within this article by Moody. I observed this and tried
to interfere with it as little as possible so as to give the reader
the full effect of this academic seminal work.
-------------------------------------------------------------------
[2] - the author, Marcello Truzzi, is supposed to also have in the works
text titles "The Sociology of the Occult in America" and "Science
and the Occult Today", as well as publishing a newsletter (called
"Exploration") "of academic research into the occult and occult
movements". the author is described as having "conducted field
research in CA, MI, and FL with witch covens and Satanic grottos."
===============================================================================
EOF

2005-02-13 21:47:30 UTC

so?

SOD of the CoE

2005-02-17 04:33:20 UTC

"Tani Jantsang ©" <***@SPAMpost.com>:
# ...Ole's paper states a lot of this in a much clearer fashion.
# You have it in pdf.

Ole Wolfe is not of the standing of Moody or of Lewis, whom I am now
studying. if you want to showcase the similarity of Ole's material
with that of Moody ("seminal", 1970s), please quote it directly.

blessed beast!

boboroshi at-sign satanservice.org: Satanic Outreach Director
Church of Euthanasia: http://www.churchofeuthanasia.org/
TOKUS WEBLINKS: http://dmoz.org/Bookmarks/B/boboroshi/
Ninth Scholar's Library (Satanism Archive): http://www.satanservice.org/

SOD of the CoE

2005-02-18 02:08:03 UTC

please comment on the original or on this review.
compressed/reorg'd -- see post-end for citation info. :>

***@boboroshi (SOD of the CoE):
# ===========================================================================
# Section Introduction "Psychological Dimensions of Religious Innovation"
# p 281-2 "Moody argues that today there is a revival of
# black magic and Satanism in contemporary
# America among many sectors of the population.

it appears that either Moody was taken in by the rhetoric of LaVey
and Co, or is attempting to have one over on the academics. to my
knowledge there was n such widespread multi-sector "revival",
and generally the language here is slanted and mistaken.

since the Section introduction effectively reproduces Moody's
text at points, I'm omitting some portions here. this seems a
very WAN treatment overall, 'seminal' or no.

# "Moody points out the kind of therapy offered
# by this group and examines its results. He
# explains the rituals of the Satanic church in
# terms of models taken from behavioral
# psychology, because he feels that much of
# what goes on in Satanic rituals is explained
# better in terms of short term behavior change
# than by psychoanalytic and anthropological
# models.

note the materialist (Behaviourist) orientation of Moody.
this conforms not only with the Church of Satan's basically
atheistic and materialist slant (at least initially), but
also makes it possible to avoid some of the depth treatment
of more complex issues about magic ('deconditioning religion'
for example: see below as he indicates that the Black Mass:
"is for people [who still cower in guilt and fear before the
charismatic power of the symbols of Christianity]." and
Magick does not have its 'Greater' mystical qualities).

# He argues that this religious group
# absorbs the deviants that society
# shuts out....

did the CoS understand he thought they were 'deviants'?
this sounds very uncomplimentary to the membership.

# ...Such groups [as the CoS] are replays
# of the dominant cultural value system."

would the members of the church have agreed? doubtful!

# ------------------------------------------------------
# excerpts from: Edward J. Moody "Magical Therapy:
# An Anthropological Investigation of Contemporary
# Satanism"
# ...This paper
# attempts to indicate how magical rituals such
# as the Invocation of Lust

a semi-ambiguous spell on a "love object" (inspiring lust in
the desired target it seems, and yet 'invocation' seems to
imply that the target is the magician or their amulet!).

# and the Shibboleth Ritual

a ritual engagement of trans-identity to "act like, think
like, talk like, and in fact 'be' [the person whom one
least understands or who causes one the most difficulty
in life]". why not simply oppose and decimate such people?
sounds kind of weak in comparison to the 9 Satanic Statements.

# help practicing Satanists, members of
# the Church of the Trapezoid[1], to accomplish
# their desires."

resocialize, conform, refine societal conditioning. strange.
perhaps this was Satanism's attempt to get into academic
attention, appear tame, and undermine SRA scare-mongering.

# ----------------------
# my notes from his text, mostly quoted terms/phrases/sections....
# p 355; "the Goat God"; "the Baphomet" (same?);
# "young girl" altar supine;

note: no real explanation as to religious worship or practice,
only "Black Magic and Satanism", whatever this means (never
truly specified). e.g.:

# "the Black Arts of witchcraft and magic";
# "the ancient art of Black Magic";

here the researcher appears to give the impression that the
Church of Satan is primarily involved with Black Magic or
"the Black Arts", which is explained as including both
ordinary talismanic magic as well as resocialization
in order to work past the individual's nerdiness.

# "*how* magic "works," ...is the subject of this
# paper";

how the talismanic magic "works" is never described, and
barely touched on. primarily Moody wants to focus on the
resocialization Behaviourism that his editor has approved.

# p 357 "Black Magic and Satanism are not new phenomena,
# even in the West";

more of the legendizing. no details are provided.

# p 358 "[The] characterization of persons accused of
# witchcraft in other cultures is a surprisingly
# accurate depiction of many if not all the
# Satanists I encountered";
# "They ... turn to witchcraft out of envy and
# frustration";

this paints a very uncomplimentary picture of members also.

# p 362 [astrology, an] esoteric science;
# other types of Magic [than astrology!];

Moody's familiarity with magic appears superficial at best,

[Satanism]
# "It solves the problem of the fragmented self,
# of guilt, of inadequacy, of anxiety, of lack
# of success, and it solves them 'magically'";

no mention of Satan in any valence. a non-issue apparently.
to me it seems a tremendous oversight, as does the bypassing
of the significance for the use of 'Trapezoid' in the name
of (one of) the body/ies he is studying.

# "... astrology and card reading -- "magic in
# sports clothes" as the High Priest Anton
# LaVey would say -- to serious magic.";

perhaps he obtained his information about magic from LaVey.

# the newbie is instructed that he is "evil"; ...

this is very interesting, and I don't recall it reflected in
many of the Church of Satan's expressions, LaVey or otherwise.
I'll have to look for it again (identification as 'evil').

# ... evil is relative to the
# time and place in which the deed is done";
#
# "and only when one feels guilty about doing
# something is he really "doing wrong."

this latter portion I do recall from LaVey or others in the CoS,
complete with the whole 'Christianity tricked our forefathers'.

# Members are constantly reminded that
# man is the human *animal*....

redundant. humans are animals.

# p 366 "In the Western tradition, the Devil clearly
# stands midway between the completely animal (or
# physical) and the completely human (or
# spiritual). He has a mixture of animal and human
# parts: he is hermaphroditic with a man's torso
# but a woman's breasts, with human arms but animal
# legs. He is the symbol of confusion between the
# animal and the spiritual."

why does this imagery surround resocialization? not explained.

# "[The Satanists] deliberately set out to be the
# antithesis of Christianity, preaching indulgence
# rather than meekness, worldly rather than other-
# worldly orientation.";

note the severely-limited understanding (negative) of Christianity.

# p 367 Black Mass; "It is for people [who still
# cower in guilt and fear before the charismatic
# power of the symbols of Christianity.";
# "[The Black Mass] is a blasphemy.";
# "The purpose of blasphemy is to bring about a
# change in the Satanists' responses (decondition)

note: specific to Christianity. perhaps LaVey and church didn't
conceive of the transcultural notion of Satanism or utter
expressions about it until later.

#
# "The traditional Black Mass parodies the
# Christian Mass using urine for communion wine,
# a beet rubbed in vaginal fluid for the wafer and
# so on.

I don't remember hearing about beets rubbed in vaginal fluid.

# The cross is hung upside down, and in some
# cults was and is used for other bizarre purposes
# of a sexual nature....

we might wonder to what "cults" the author refers.

# [A member with conservative Christian
# upbringing, used as an example] had not [yet]
# been taught the "magical" power to attract and
# win females. To accomplish this he was instructed
# in both Greater and Lesser Magic....";

note the terminology "winning females". the Crowleyan 'k' in the
phrases 'Greater and Lesser Magick' later picked up at least by
Michael Aquino and some other CoS members.

# p 370 "Each ritual is performed before the "altar
# of flesh," the naked body of some young and
# usually attractive young witch (different
# witches play this role each week).";

no mention of the hiring of dancing girls. this conforms to the
notion expressed above of the general intention of conformance
with the surrounding society (contra-religious-prudery).

# p 371 "the Church of the Trapezoid";
# "he was instructed in both Greater and Lesser
# Magic concerning the Invocation of Lust and the
# other phenomena associated with
# heterosexuality.";
#
# "Greater and Lesser Magic are relatively easy
# to distinguish. Greater Magic is ritual magic
# in which the purposes of the ritual are usually
# specific, the structure of the ritual formalized
# [special setting and time] and the magical
# rationale for the success or failure of the
# ritual codified. Lesser Magic is a type of magic
# used to bring the results one wants in *daily*
# interactions with others in the *workaday* world.";

this is a far more tenuous distinction than is promoted elsewhere.
what I've seen (ToS?) was:

Lesser Black Magick -- manipulation at base, ordinary and
mundane, inclusive of enticement, attraction,
subtle influences in ordinary manners, and straight
out manipulation and harm; possibly simple spellwork.

Greater Black Magick -- personal deconditioning and
empowerment through ritualized pursuits.

# p 372 "As "Lesser Magic," the type of magical
# knowledge taught may range from how to flatter a
# girl to how to dress and groom oneself in order
# to be attractive to others.";

consonant with the above.

# "the Greater Magic he learned initially took the
# form of Love Magic. He was instructed in the art
# of preparing a love amulet and conjuring lust in
# his love object. Preparing a love amulet is a
# rather difficult and time-consuming thing to do.
# Exotic or rare ingredients must be gathered and
# ritually combined accordingly in a special setting";

the reason this is "Greater" appears to be because it pertains to a
specific magical rite (the Invocation of Lust).

# p 373 "First the theory of love magic is explained
# to him. He is taught that every individual gives
# off "vibrations" of one kind or another....

here is the closest Moody comes to "chi"/"energy"/"prana"/etc.

# "the Satanic ritual can be modified for a variety
# of special purposes"; weekly, compared with
# Communion/Mass;

this is a very brief mention that doesn't focus sufficiently for
a full explanation of whether and how closely this refers to
quasi-Neopagan rites, comparable to Calling Quarters; Satanist
ritual early on conforms most closely to a kind of Wiccan
Infernalism, from what I've seen, extending toward
Lovecraftian wrathful encounters.

# p 374 "Love magic ... involves the use of certain
# ritual objects, the preparation of certain
# types of candles, parchments, and so on.";

here's the place where "how magic 'works'" is missing.

# "When an individual wants the group's help in
# cursing an enemy, he must persuade the group that
# his grievance is just.";

this is reflected very strongly in Lewis' surveys also.

# p 379 "Rituals in which the animal nature of man,
# the similarity between his behavior and that of
# the animals, is demonstrated by delibrants [sic,
# s/b "celebrants"] dressed as men with animal
# heads who perform animalistically in the ritual,
# gradually shifting back and forth from human to animal.";
# "Ideological Rituals"; the Black Mass can also be
# seen as such [alongside that lycanthropic above];

why can the Black Mass be seen as such??

# p 380 "Magic Transformation" (for concealment);

presumably a form of Lesser Black Magic.

# p 381 "The Satanists preach indulgence of all
# desires, but the indulgences they enjoy are
# confined to the Satanic context and are never
# forced on unwilling victims."

note the focus here on non-coersion of anyone, no mention
of rightful vengeance except possibly the magical (curse).

# p 382 [Moody's Summary] "The Satanist ... casting
# off the need for powerful gods to protect and
# care for him, insisting that he is strong enough
# to take care of himself.

note that few gods are specifically mentioned here except in
possible implication (the Christian god(s)).

# He commands the gods and does not beseech
# them.

no examples of this. perhaps it is more than Black Magic.

# He is turning from an
# ethereal and other-worldly orientation to a
# somewhat more realistic assessment and concern
# with the mundane and real world.";

again the focus or orientation to materialism.

# ====================================================================
# References Listed of Note
# p 819 Moody, Edward James
# Lecturer, The Queen's University at Belfast, Ireland.
# For two and a half years he was a member of the
# First Church of Satan [sic!] in San Francisco doing
# participant observation; and for four years he
# conducted research with individuals practicing
# various forms of magical ritual. Part of 1972 was
# spent researching exorcism in London, England.

no explanation of the 4 years researching "various forms of magical
ritual". no mention of his credentials. any?

# ==============================
# other references (by date)
# ==============================

# 1954
# Rhodes, H.T.F.
# The Satanic Mass
# [several hits on this title by Rhodes!!]

anyone have familiarity with this text?

# 1970
# Lyons, Arthur
# The Second Coming: Satanism in America
# [how is this title different than "Satan Wants You"?]

in many ways Lyons does a more thorough investigative report than
Moody has done within this academic context.

# Truzzi, Marcello
# "The Occult Revival as Popular Culture:
# Some Random Observations on the Old and
# the Nouveau Witch" in Sociological Quarterly #13:16-36. [2]

[transposed]

# -------------------------------------------------------------------
#
# [2] - the author, Marcello Truzzi, is supposed to also have in the works
# text titles "The Sociology of the Occult in America" and "Science
# and the Occult Today", as well as publishing a newsletter (called
# "Exploration") "of academic research into the occult and occult
# movements". the author is described as having "conducted field
# research in CA, MI, and FL with witch covens and Satanic grottos."

anyone familiar with this man's work? years? I'll try to track him down.

# [1] - editor's note: the reference to the Satanist external and interior
# social body identifier ('Church of Satan', 'First Church of Satan',
# 'Church of the Trapezoid', 'First Church of the Trapezoid') shifts
# occasionally within this article by Moody. I observed this and tried
# to interfere with it as little as possible so as to give the reader
# the full effect of this academic seminal work.

this facet of the paper seems extremely strange. either the Church of
Satan hadn't yet formalized its nomenclature and internals at the time
of his study, or he was very spotty on his details.

# ==============================================================================

SOURCE:

# Notes and Excerpts in Reflection on Academic Text
# Satanism and Magical Therapy:
# Moody's Churches and Resocialization Theory
# ---------------------------------------------------
# excerpts about Satanism from the excellent book:
# "Religious Movements in Contemporary America",
# by Irving I. Zaretsky and Mark P. Leone,
# and primarily the written expression of
# Edward J. Moody, within "Magical Therapy:
# An Anthropological Investigation of
# Contemporary Satanism";
# the whole published by
# Princeton University Press, 1974.

END

Tani Jantsang ©

2005-02-18 22:02:11 UTC

Post by SOD of the CoE
please comment on the original or on this review.
compressed/reorg'd -- see post-end for citation info. :>
#
===========================================================================
# Section Introduction "Psychological Dimensions of Religious Innovation"
# p 281-2 "Moody argues that today there is a revival of
# black magic and Satanism in contemporary
# America among many sectors of the population.
it appears that either Moody was taken in by the rhetoric of LaVey
and Co, or is attempting to have one over on the academics. to my
knowledge there was n such widespread multi-sector "revival",
and generally the language here is slanted and mistaken.

Is Moody alive? He may view all occultism as "black magic." The
wide-spread and multi sector revival was more like Sybil Leek stuff of the
day, Tarot cards, O Boards, Astrology and the like - all forms of things
considered "occultism or magic" by the prevailing Christian culture in
society. I.e., things that were not strictly based in material science! I
remember when the word "vibes" became a word that was purely occultic,
linked to something like auras and the like. It was when the movie Jaws
came out. I was on line and everyohe got into a convo about sharks. I
mentioned that sharks can sense prey from vibes, especially those made by
swimmers who seem more like thrashing fish. I meant literal vibrations.
The person thought I meant something very different. In fact, most of the
people in the convo thought I meant something very different! Back then the
word "vibes" no longer meant a literal vibration from a real movement, like
thrashing in water.

Keep in mind that ALL of this stuff lumped together, even tarot and
astrology, were considered satanic or at least black magic or "magick," if
they didn't use the Satan-IC word. I remember that very clearly. I also
remember some people, including MOST black people in the area, thinking that
Lamas were black magicians. And so it comes to labels. Is what we do black
magic? It is, according to quite a lot of people. According to us, no -
it's not even magic or magick. People have their own definitions of things,
and you are going to have to learn to accept that since it's about
paradigms, not "YOUR definitions." To do otherwise would be patronizing,
authoritarian and rigidly pompous. Crowley was the Big One that came first
when it comes to western occultism. His definition of Magick is "any act of
Will."

One of the reasons back then that LaVey spewed so much vitriol against these
alternate religions (not Lamaism, but the Witch, astrology, tarot and etc.
stuff) was that these people, in the midst of this revival, ignored him,
dismissed him - and only a few of them made stronger stances against him.
Most ignored/dismissed him. Yes, there was a big revival - but it wasn't
related to LaVey's thing. It does boil down to semantics, no matter how you
look at it. You have your definitions - of magic, occultism, etc, others
have theirs. Crowley had his and he's BIG. We don't tend to call anything
magic except stage tricks. Semantics. I personally tend to use the word
magic or magick to people that THINK in those terms. That is called
Communicating in a way that will enable them to understand what is being
said. That you can't seem to quite grasp that - is amazing.

Post by SOD of the CoE
since the Section introduction effectively reproduces Moody's
text at points, I'm omitting some portions here. this seems a
very WAN treatment overall, 'seminal' or no.
# "Moody points out the kind of therapy offered
# by this group and examines its results. He
# explains the rituals of the Satanic church in
# terms of models taken from behavioral
# psychology, because he feels that much of
# what goes on in Satanic rituals is explained
# better in terms of short term behavior change
# than by psychoanalytic and anthropological
# models.
note the materialist (Behaviourist) orientation of Moody.
this conforms not only with the Church of Satan's basically
atheistic and materialist slant (at least initially), but
also makes it possible to avoid some of the depth treatment
of more complex issues about magic ('deconditioning religion'
"is for people [who still cower in guilt and fear before the
charismatic power of the symbols of Christianity]." and
Magick does not have its 'Greater' mystical qualities).
# He argues that this religious group
# absorbs the deviants that society
# shuts out....

Actually, they do tend to absorb that type now. At first, they definitely
did NOT attract that type at all. Take a look at who was in it, including
Dr. Aquino. He was a MODEL American citizen, a former boy scout. He was
not shut out of anything. The people that initially werein the COS were
good looking people, well built people, people with good jobs and the like -
they were not social outcasts in the least, not even CLOSE to that. They
had pals and had enjoyable lives. What later came to constitute a lot of
the main membership of the COS were white males (as the survey showed) who
ARE outcasts in society and/or who were picked on, usually in school. Many
of them are victims of black ON white crap - which is precisely why the
"fascist ideal" rose up so fast in their ranks. It was a reaction NOT to
Christianity (except that Christians, for them, told them to turn the other
cheek!) - it was a reaction to this very human social dynamic and Big
Liberal stuff. Definitely. Consider that carefully then instead of
ignoring it. When before Christianity was strong, macho, persecutorial of
differences and eye for eye, intolerant - now Christianity boiled down to
"turn the other cheek, take abuse from people - be tolerant tolerant
tolerant!" BIG difference in the prevailing encircling culture.

Post by SOD of the CoE
did the CoS understand he thought they were 'deviants'?
this sounds very uncomplimentary to the membership.

LaVey certainly understood that about a lot of what was in his org when he
corresponded with me - and he was talking about the organization in the
1990s and so forth, not the org he made at first. So was Gilmore when he
talked to me on phone. He personally called them losers! Gilmore himself
is not a person that society has shut out. He's a person with a degree from
a university in music. He collects Star Trek tapes and other sci fi show
tapes. he likes to bowl. They (Gilmore and wife) watch the Food Channel
and make dinners from recipes there; they like to dine out. He's a very
regular guy in that way, not a society shut out.

Post by SOD of the CoE
# ...Such groups [as the CoS] are replays
# of the dominant cultural value system."
would the members of the church have agreed? doubtful!

It would take the ability to see themselves to see that.

Btw, when Lewis mentions the Satanic Reds, that IS mentioning the ddocs
because SR is THE ddoc org, Bobo. Guess that went past you. I personally
asked Lewis to ask another SR for an interview. He did.

Fact is, quite a lot of the philosophy LaVey borrowed from, Nietzsche, Rand,
London - are also philosophers and writers that the National Alliance likes
a lot - you can even buy London and Nietzsche books from them. National
Alliance is a Nazi organization, Bobo. They'd not sell Rand because she is
Jewish.

The FCOS of Egan and many other organizations that took a clue from his
stance got so big because, as the biggeest European Satanic group said
(Satanic Kindred) in one essay written to their entire membership, "as you
know, most of us have suffered abuse, either at the hands of our parents or
at the hands of others in school." There you have it. MOST of them. They
could RELATE to that. Egan also related to the gays as victims or as people
afraid to come out into the open. His membership consisted of anyone on his
egroup - so yeah, he had thousands. Anyone could get on it. Sr doesn't
work that way, Bobo. NO ONE can get on it unless they are members of the
org - and they can't get into the org if they don't understand the basic
tenets. We can **AFFORD** to be exclusive that way - even if we are
inclusive of any religion so long as they are "in" with the basic tenets.

Post by SOD of the CoE
# ------------------------------------------------------
# An Anthropological Investigation of Contemporary
# Satanism"
# ...This paper
# attempts to indicate how magical rituals such
# as the Invocation of Lust
a semi-ambiguous spell on a "love object" (inspiring lust in
the desired target it seems, and yet 'invocation' seems to
imply that the target is the magician or their amulet!).

That is something most people would call magick or magic - it's definitely
not materialist science at all.

Post by SOD of the CoE
# and the Shibboleth Ritual
a ritual engagement of trans-identity to "act like, think
like, talk like, and in fact 'be' [the person whom one
least understands or who causes one the most difficulty
in life]". why not simply oppose and decimate such people?
sounds kind of weak in comparison to the 9 Satanic Statements.
# help practicing Satanists, members of
# the Church of the Trapezoid[1], to accomplish
# their desires."
resocialize, conform, refine societal conditioning. strange.
perhaps this was Satanism's attempt to get into academic
attention, appear tame, and undermine SRA scare-mongering.

SRA came much later. At first, there was very non-materialist type
mysticism there - spells and the like. I think you are trying to rewrite
LaVey.

Post by SOD of the CoE
# ----------------------
# my notes from his text, mostly quoted terms/phrases/sections....
# p 355; "the Goat God"; "the Baphomet" (same?);
# "young girl" altar supine;
note: no real explanation as to religious worship or practice,
only "Black Magic and Satanism", whatever this means (never
# "the Black Arts of witchcraft and magic";
# "the ancient art of Black Magic";
here the researcher appears to give the impression that the
Church of Satan is primarily involved with Black Magic or
"the Black Arts", which is explained as including both
ordinary talismanic magic as well as resocialization
in order to work past the individual's nerdiness.

At first it was. They had grottos, they did ceremonies as a group. Lots of
them. I remember reading interviews with these people in these grottos back
then in magazines such as Look or whatever.

Post by SOD of the CoE
# "*how* magic "works," ...is the subject of this
# paper";
how the talismanic magic "works" is never described, and
barely touched on. primarily Moody wants to focus on the
resocialization Behaviourism that his editor has approved.

That is the problem with books published by a publisher. They have to stick
to a guideline.

Post by SOD of the CoE
# p 357 "Black Magic and Satanism are not new phenomena,
# even in the West";
more of the legendizing. no details are provided.

Dennis Wheatley and Aleister Crowley.

Post by SOD of the CoE
# p 358 "[The] characterization of persons accused of
# witchcraft in other cultures is a surprisingly
# accurate depiction of many if not all the
# Satanists I encountered";
# "They ... turn to witchcraft out of envy and
# frustration";
this paints a very uncomplimentary picture of members also.

It is also what AE Waite had to say in the last chapter of his UNEDITED
book. The edited version has the scathing last chapter ommitted! "The Book
of Ceremonial Magic" is the unedited book. Keep in mind, "Solomon's" book
The goetia was a big seller back then, too. That's all about demons, Bobo.

Post by SOD of the CoE
# p 362 [astrology, an] esoteric science;
# other types of Magic [than astrology!];
Moody's familiarity with magic appears superficial at best,

See above - ALL of that fell under the label magic back then, including
tarot and O board.

Post by SOD of the CoE
[Satanism]
# "It solves the problem of the fragmented self,
# of guilt, of inadequacy, of anxiety, of lack
# of success, and it solves them 'magically'";

AE Waite says the same.

Post by SOD of the CoE
no mention of Satan in any valence. a non-issue apparently.
to me it seems a tremendous oversight, as does the bypassing
of the significance for the use of 'Trapezoid' in the name
of (one of) the body/ies he is studying.
# "... astrology and card reading -- "magic in
# sports clothes" as the High Priest Anton
# LaVey would say -- to serious magic.";
perhaps he obtained his information about magic from LaVey.

Yes.

Post by SOD of the CoE
# the newbie is instructed that he is "evil"; ...
this is very interesting, and I don't recall it reflected in
many of the Church of Satan's expressions, LaVey or otherwise.
I'll have to look for it again (identification as 'evil').
# ... evil is relative to the
# time and place in which the deed is done";
#
# "and only when one feels guilty about doing
# something is he really "doing wrong."
this latter portion I do recall from LaVey or others in the CoS,
complete with the whole 'Christianity tricked our forefathers'.
# Members are constantly reminded that
# man is the human *animal*....
redundant. humans are animals.
# p 366 "In the Western tradition, the Devil clearly
# stands midway between the completely animal (or
# physical) and the completely human (or
# spiritual). He has a mixture of animal and human
# parts: he is hermaphroditic with a man's torso
# but a woman's breasts, with human arms but animal
# legs. He is the symbol of confusion between the
# animal and the spiritual."
why does this imagery surround resocialization? not explained.

He also wrongly calls that the devil. It's not the devil. And there is no
"confusion" between the animal and the spiritual at all. They are ONE
thing.

Post by SOD of the CoE
# "[The Satanists] deliberately set out to be the
# antithesis of Christianity, preaching indulgence
# rather than meekness, worldly rather than other-
# worldly orientation.";
note the severely-limited understanding (negative) of Christianity.
# p 367 Black Mass; "It is for people [who still
# cower in guilt and fear before the charismatic
# power of the symbols of Christianity.";
# "[The Black Mass] is a blasphemy.";
# "The purpose of blasphemy is to bring about a
# change in the Satanists' responses (decondition)
note: specific to Christianity. perhaps LaVey and church didn't
conceive of the transcultural notion of Satanism or utter
expressions about it until later.

There are many ways to BLASPHEMY. Stand erect, hold out your arm and scream
HEIL HITLER, or "WHITE POWER." Or "ZIEG HEIL." In fact, the title of a
whole COS venture albm of music done by Magister Vincent Crowley was "Hail
Victory" and in German speaking countries they would not allow them to call
it that because in German, you say that "Zieg Heil." That is BLASPHEMY,
Bobo. Does it serve a purpose? yes, it tends to make white guys that were
rendered meek and emasculated by "black on white" shit in school - get FREE
of it and go overboard in standing up for themselves AND their race. It
does do that. Therefore - that might be "behavioral deconditioning" or -
magick - depending on who uses which label. Do you see this?

Post by SOD of the CoE
#
# "The traditional Black Mass parodies the
# Christian Mass using urine for communion wine,
# a beet rubbed in vaginal fluid for the wafer and
# so on.
I don't remember hearing about beets rubbed in vaginal fluid.
# The cross is hung upside down, and in some
# cults was and is used for other bizarre purposes
# of a sexual nature....
we might wonder to what "cults" the author refers.

Back then, a collection of COS authorized amulets included an upside down
cross.

Post by SOD of the CoE
# [A member with conservative Christian
# upbringing, used as an example] had not [yet]
# been taught the "magical" power to attract and
# win females. To accomplish this he was instructed
# in both Greater and Lesser Magic....";
note the terminology "winning females". the Crowleyan 'k' in the
phrases 'Greater and Lesser Magick' later picked up at least by
Michael Aquino and some other CoS members.
# p 370 "Each ritual is performed before the "altar
# of flesh," the naked body of some young and
# usually attractive young witch (different
# witches play this role each week).";
no mention of the hiring of dancing girls. this conforms to the
notion expressed above of the general intention of conformance
with the surrounding society (contra-religious-prudery).
# p 371 "the Church of the Trapezoid";
# "he was instructed in both Greater and Lesser
# Magic concerning the Invocation of Lust and the
# other phenomena associated with
# heterosexuality.";
#
# "Greater and Lesser Magic are relatively easy
# to distinguish. Greater Magic is ritual magic
# in which the purposes of the ritual are usually
# specific, the structure of the ritual formalized
# [special setting and time] and the magical
# rationale for the success or failure of the
# ritual codified. Lesser Magic is a type of magic
# used to bring the results one wants in *daily*
# interactions with others in the *workaday* world.";
this is a far more tenuous distinction than is promoted elsewhere.
Lesser Black Magick -- manipulation at base, ordinary and
mundane, inclusive of enticement, attraction,
subtle influences in ordinary manners, and straight
out manipulation and harm; possibly simple spellwork.
Greater Black Magick -- personal deconditioning and
empowerment through ritualized pursuits.

Our definition, IF you care to have it. LBM would be intuitive street
savvy. GBM would be siddhi. None of these do I personally regard as magic.
But many DO regard it as magic. In fact, MOST people do.

Post by SOD of the CoE
# p 372 "As "Lesser Magic," the type of magical
# knowledge taught may range from how to flatter a
# girl to how to dress and groom oneself in order
# to be attractive to others.";
consonant with the above.
# "the Greater Magic he learned initially took the
# form of Love Magic. He was instructed in the art
# of preparing a love amulet and conjuring lust in
# his love object. Preparing a love amulet is a
# rather difficult and time-consuming thing to do.
# Exotic or rare ingredients must be gathered and
# ritually combined accordingly in a special setting";
the reason this is "Greater" appears to be because it pertains to a
specific magical rite (the Invocation of Lust).

Or else it takes up a lot of time and effort. Ah, but does it produce
results? Usually not.

Post by SOD of the CoE
# p 373 "First the theory of love magic is explained
# to him. He is taught that every individual gives
# off "vibrations" of one kind or another....
here is the closest Moody comes to "chi"/"energy"/"prana"/etc.

My article, published in the TBF magazine brought all of that "vibe" stuff
down to chemistry, pheromones and such. Materialist in the extreme. That's
all it really IS. Anger and sadness boil down to chemistry. Happy and joy
also boil down to chemistry. A person's brain chemistry during these moods
CAN be empirically measured. Hence, Phil and I both were seen WITHIN the
confines of the upper COS - as people bringing in hard science and
explaining mystical stuff away. We also sent them actual science journal
articles. But you know, there is this stuff out on the market that can turn
rust into metal. Is that magic? Well, it's chemistry - but no one I know
knows exactly HOW this works. The formula is of course, a trade secret.
It really does turn rust INTO METAL, too. It does not just coat it over.
It transforms it.

Post by SOD of the CoE
# "the Satanic ritual can be modified for a variety
# of special purposes"; weekly, compared with
# Communion/Mass;
this is a very brief mention that doesn't focus sufficiently for
a full explanation of whether and how closely this refers to
quasi-Neopagan rites, comparable to Calling Quarters; Satanist
ritual early on conforms most closely to a kind of Wiccan
Infernalism, from what I've seen, extending toward
Lovecraftian wrathful encounters.

Yes.

Post by SOD of the CoE
# p 374 "Love magic ... involves the use of certain
# ritual objects, the preparation of certain
# types of candles, parchments, and so on.";
here's the place where "how magic 'works'" is missing.
# "When an individual wants the group's help in
# cursing an enemy, he must persuade the group that
# his grievance is just.";
this is reflected very strongly in Lewis' surveys also.
# p 379 "Rituals in which the animal nature of man,
# the similarity between his behavior and that of
# the animals, is demonstrated by delibrants [sic,
# s/b "celebrants"] dressed as men with animal
# heads who perform animalistically in the ritual,
# gradually shifting back and forth from human to animal.";
# "Ideological Rituals"; the Black Mass can also be
# seen as such [alongside that lycanthropic above];
why can the Black Mass be seen as such??

What is a Blass Mass, after all? It is a MASS - like the Christians have -
and it's black only because they coined that word "black" for it and
anything "evil." Afro Americans picked up on how the word BLACK continues
to be equated with - EVIL. A better question to ask would be to ask if ANY
of these magickal groups ever considered that as they perpetuated this kind
of label? Did they realize that they were equating black with evil?

Post by SOD of the CoE
# p 380 "Magic Transformation" (for concealment);
presumably a form of Lesser Black Magic.
# p 381 "The Satanists preach indulgence of all
# desires, but the indulgences they enjoy are
# confined to the Satanic context and are never
# forced on unwilling victims."
note the focus here on non-coersion of anyone, no mention
of rightful vengeance except possibly the magical (curse).
# p 382 [Moody's Summary] "The Satanist ... casting
# off the need for powerful gods to protect and
# care for him, insisting that he is strong enough
# to take care of himself.
note that few gods are specifically mentioned here except in
possible implication (the Christian god(s)).
# He commands the gods and does not beseech
# them.
no examples of this. perhaps it is more than Black Magic.

That the person is "talking to Gods" is, on my terms, just the same religion
side ways, upside down, whatever.

Post by SOD of the CoE
# He is turning from an
# ethereal and other-worldly orientation to a
# somewhat more realistic assessment and concern
# with the mundane and real world.";
again the focus or orientation to materialism.
# ====================================================================
# References Listed of Note
# p 819 Moody, Edward James
# Lecturer, The Queen's University at Belfast, Ireland.
# For two and a half years he was a member of the
# First Church of Satan [sic!] in San Francisco doing
# participant observation; and for four years he
# conducted research with individuals practicing
# various forms of magical ritual. Part of 1972 was
# spent researching exorcism in London, England.
no explanation of the 4 years researching "various forms of magical
ritual". no mention of his credentials. any?
# ==============================
# other references (by date)
# ==============================
# 1954
# Rhodes, H.T.F.
# The Satanic Mass
# [several hits on this title by Rhodes!!]
anyone have familiarity with this text?
# 1970
# Lyons, Arthur
# The Second Coming: Satanism in America
# [how is this title different than "Satan Wants You"?]
in many ways Lyons does a more thorough investigative report than
Moody has done within this academic context.
# Truzzi, Marcello
# Some Random Observations on the Old and
# the Nouveau Witch" in Sociological Quarterly #13:16-36. [2]
[transposed]
-------------------------------------------------------------------
#
# [2] - the author, Marcello Truzzi, is supposed to also have in the works
# text titles "The Sociology of the Occult in America" and "Science
# and the Occult Today", as well as publishing a newsletter (called
# "Exploration") "of academic research into the occult and occult
# movements". the author is described as having "conducted field
# research in CA, MI, and FL with witch covens and Satanic grottos."
anyone familiar with this man's work? years? I'll try to track him down.
# [1] - editor's note: the reference to the Satanist external and interior
# social body identifier ('Church of Satan', 'First Church of Satan',
# 'Church of the Trapezoid', 'First Church of the Trapezoid') shifts
# occasionally within this article by Moody. I observed this and tried
# to interfere with it as little as possible so as to give the reader
# the full effect of this academic seminal work.
this facet of the paper seems extremely strange. either the Church of
Satan hadn't yet formalized its nomenclature and internals at the time
of his study, or he was very spotty on his details.

They did formalize it. Then they went defacto dormant. Then Gilmore et al
stepped in and REformalized it, more or less - sort of. You need to read
Ole's paper - and he and Amina ARE big in Denmark - considered experts in
the field and they do have credentials.

The squabbles over SR material well, it's the same exact material as it
always was, it was never REformalized - it's the old Kishite stuff with the
addition of using LINGO that people into the western occult WILL relate to
and not words they never heard of. It's exactly the same, identical stuff -
no change at all except for lingo. The squabbles seem to be over how
individuals VIEW the 1, the 3 the 5 and the 7 main things. Ole's view is
extremely atheistic - him always trying to "find science" to explain the
stuff and finding some - or finding something in psychology or neurology.
Finding out that my view doesn't exactly agree with that - and imo he just
never understood anything about where I was 'coming from' and he should NOT
give a shit about it - caused a split. I don't care about that . The ddoc
material is exactly the same as it was decades ago - except for LANGUAGE
being used. It really doesn't have any roots in western occultism. And if
I say Mendu and then I start to say Hello and then I start to say Hey Yo -
it doesn't mean that I'm saying something different at all. All things are
Spirit in different forms. Ok, you don't get that one? The SELF is a
combination of the entire brain, entire body, including somatic markers all
as one merged thing. I'm saying the same thing.

Post by SOD of the CoE
#
==============================================================================
# Notes and Excerpts in Reflection on Academic Text
# Moody's Churches and Resocialization Theory
# ---------------------------------------------------
# "Religious Movements in Contemporary America",
# by Irving I. Zaretsky and Mark P. Leone,
# and primarily the written expression of
# An Anthropological Investigation of
# Contemporary Satanism";
# the whole published by
# Princeton University Press, 1974.
END

SOD of the CoE

2005-03-13 08:46:38 UTC

"SOD of the CoE" <***@boboroshi>:
#> ...to my
#> knowledge there was [no] such widespread multi-sector "revival",
#> [of black magic and satanism] and generally the language here
#> is slanted and mistaken.

"Tani Jantsang ©" <***@SPAMpost.com>:
# Is Moody alive?

no idea. probably.

# He may view all occultism as "black magic." The
# wide-spread and multi sector revival was more like Sybil Leek stuff of the
# day, Tarot cards, O Boards, Astrology and the like - all forms of things
# considered "occultism or magic" by the prevailing Christian culture in
# society....

the mystique of "black magic" and "black arts" gave Moody reason to
focus on this just as the CoS did at the time. he knew little about
truly caustic magic (the usual referent here), but obliquely
referred to spellcasting as if somewhat familiar (grey variety).

# it's not even magic or magick. People have their own definitions of things,
# and you are going to have to learn to accept that since it's about
# paradigms, not "YOUR definitions." To do otherwise would be patronizing,
# authoritarian and rigidly pompous. Crowley was the Big One that came first
# when it comes to western occultism. His definition of Magick is "any act of
# Will."

not for black magic. he discerned it from his own "Magick" which he coined
for the purpose of competition with Blavatsky and others. he even eschewed
the term 'Satanist', while invoking Satan and considering his Holy Guardian
Angel to *be* 'Satan by any other name'.

# related to LaVey's thing. It does boil down to semantics, no matter how you
# look at it.

not entirely. typically the phrase 'black magic' within the context
of those who *accept magic as legitimate* is caustic or harmful. the
Church of Satan was attempting a novelty term control, possibly
thinking just what you assert above.

# > # He argues that this religious group
# > # absorbs the deviants that society
# > # shuts out....

# Actually, they do tend to absorb that type now....

much of the personnel in "Satanis: the Devil's Mass" does appear this way.
it is dated 1969.

# Btw, when Lewis mentions the Satanic Reds, that IS mentioning the ddocs

geocities/satanicreds/ is the closest he comes. he has numerous
paragraphs in the entry but never mentions the DDocs in any way.

# > in life]". why not simply oppose and decimate such people?
# > sounds kind of weak in comparison to the 9 Satanic Statements.
# >
# > # help practicing Satanists, members of
# > # the Church of the Trapezoid[1], to accomplish
# > # their desires."
# >
# > resocialize, conform, refine societal conditioning. strange.
# > perhaps this was Satanism's attempt to get into academic
# > attention, appear tame, and undermine SRA scare-mongering.
#
# SRA came much later. At first, there was very non-materialist type
# mysticism there - spells and the like. I think you are trying to
# rewrite LaVey.

1972, mostly pre-SRA agreed, but the whole notion of 'satanic church'
not being about sacrificing children and pets was counter-cultural.
the Bogey was out there, and the CoS sought to grapple with it.

# > note: no real explanation as to religious worship or practice,
# > only "Black Magic and Satanism", whatever this means (never
# > truly specified). e.g.:
# >
# > # "the Black Arts of witchcraft and magic";
# > # "the ancient art of Black Magic";
# >
# > here the researcher appears to give the impression that the
# > Church of Satan is primarily involved with Black Magic or
# > "the Black Arts", which is explained as including both
# > ordinary talismanic magic as well as resocialization
# > in order to work past the individual's nerdiness.
#
# At first it was.

actually only according to their own peculiar definitions that
do not really apply in the occult world.

# > # "*how* magic "works," ...is the subject of this
# > # paper";
# >
# > how the talismanic magic "works" is never described, and
# > barely touched on. primarily Moody wants to focus on the
# > resocialization Behaviourism that his editor has approved.

# That is the problem with books published by a publisher.
# They have to stick to a guideline.

no, this is an academic text on religion. it is the editors and
the general environment he is pleasing, and apparently focus on
materialist psychology got the gig with the Church of Satan, in
spite of Moody's poor attention to detail and overall mistakes.

# > # p 357 "Black Magic and Satanism are not new phenomena,
# > # even in the West";
# >
# > more of the legendizing. no details are provided.

# Dennis Wheatley and Aleister Crowley.

Dennis Wheatley was a writer of fiction. Aleister Crowley
condemned what he called "black magic": the operation of
magic without connection to the Knowledge and Conversation
of the Holy Guardian Angel; cf. "Magick in Theory and
Practice", Part Three of Book Four, or just see Liber Nigris:

http://www.luckymojo.com/avidyana/shaitan/libernigris.fn

# > # "They ... turn to witchcraft out of envy and
# > # frustration";
# >
# > this paints a very uncomplimentary picture of members also.

# It is also what AE Waite had to say in the last chapter of his UNEDITED
# book. The edited version has the scathing last chapter ommitted! "The Book
# of Ceremonial Magic" is the unedited book. Keep in mind, "Solomon's" book
# The goetia was a big seller back then, too. That's all about demons, Bobo.

most of Waite's grimoire material has pieces missing.
to this extent Shah did a better job of conveying the information.
Waite was all hung up on people getting the technology.

# > # p 366 "In the Western tradition, the Devil clearly
# > # stands midway between the completely animal (or
# > # physical) and the completely human (or
# > # spiritual). He has a mixture of animal and human
# > # parts: he is hermaphroditic with a man's torso
# > # but a woman's breasts, with human arms but animal
# > # legs. He is the symbol of confusion between the
# > # animal and the spiritual."
# >
# > why does this imagery surround resocialization?
# > not explained.
#
# He also wrongly calls that the devil. It's not the devil.

amusingly, it *is* the Devil tarot card (after Levi), plus it
does conform to most conceptions of the Devil in some ways
(theriomorph, for example).

# And there is no "confusion" between the animal and the
# spiritual at all. They are ONE thing.

his language is convoluted. he mans between the objective
and the subjective. generally, intraspecial.

# > # The cross is hung upside down, and in some
# > # cults was and is used for other bizarre purposes
# > # of a sexual nature....
# >
# > we might wonder to what "cults" the author refers.
#
# Back then, a collection of COS authorized amulets included an upside down
# cross.

still does. Purging Talon's mark has one. I'm sure it's all over.

# > SOURCE:
# >
# > # Notes and Excerpts in Reflection on Academic Text
# > # Satanism and Magical Therapy:
# > # Moody's Churches and Resocialization Theory
# > # ---------------------------------------------------
# > # excerpts about Satanism from the excellent book:
# > # "Religious Movements in Contemporary America",
# > # by Irving I. Zaretsky and Mark P. Leone,
# > # and primarily the written expression of
# > # Edward J. Moody, within "Magical Therapy:
# > # An Anthropological Investigation of
# > # Contemporary Satanism";
# > # the whole published by
# > # Princeton University Press, 1974.

END

Tani Jantsang ©

2005-03-17 07:44:06 UTC

Just saw this - gotta try to remember what were were chatting about... See
in.

Post by SOD of the CoE
#> ...to my
#> knowledge there was [no] such widespread multi-sector "revival",
#> [of black magic and satanism] and generally the language here
#> is slanted and mistaken.
# Is Moody alive?
no idea. probably.
# He may view all occultism as "black magic." The
# wide-spread and multi sector revival was more like Sybil Leek stuff of the
# day, Tarot cards, O Boards, Astrology and the like - all forms of things
# considered "occultism or magic" by the prevailing Christian culture in
# society....
the mystique of "black magic" and "black arts" gave Moody reason to
focus on this just as the CoS did at the time. he knew little about
truly caustic magic (the usual referent here), but obliquely
referred to spellcasting as if somewhat familiar (grey variety).

Well, again, O board, Tarot - all of that was "black arts." My most Kodak
moment was probably my face after a good friend of mine visited Temple.
"OH MY GOD, you people worship the Old Ones." That went over really well
(not).

Speaking of which :-DDD - the other day I thought up an Idea (note
capitalized "I") that had me howling laughning so hard and so long that I
couldn't speak the words to tell anyone what was so funny. I'd bust out
laughing too hard if I even tried to say the two words out loud. Presenting
the: Ouija Bowl. Take can of AUTHENTIC, GENUINE, Campbells Alphabet soup.
Put soup in Ouija Bowl. Magically, the letters spell out prophecy. SEE?
There is a W, a T and a C in my Magic Bowl - and that showed up the day
before 9/11. Sell it on amazon or ebay, LMAO.

Anyway....

Post by SOD of the CoE
# it's not even magic or magick. People have their own definitions of things,
# and you are going to have to learn to accept that since it's about
# paradigms, not "YOUR definitions." To do otherwise would be
patronizing,
# authoritarian and rigidly pompous. Crowley was the Big One that came first
# when it comes to western occultism. His definition of Magick is "any act of
# Will."
not for black magic. he discerned it from his own "Magick" which he coined
for the purpose of competition with Blavatsky and others. he even eschewed
the term 'Satanist', while invoking Satan and considering his Holy Guardian
Angel to *be* 'Satan by any other name'.

Well, my whole stance on that is that "that Satan" is tired. You read what
I wrote about shamanism (aka Lamaism). I don't regard ANY of that as magic
or magick. Some folks can do it, some can't. No big deal. I think folks
that can't do it think it's magic or a big deal. That's my opinion on it.

Post by SOD of the CoE
# related to LaVey's thing. It does boil down to semantics, no matter how you
# look at it.
not entirely. typically the phrase 'black magic' within the context
of those who *accept magic as legitimate* is caustic or harmful.

I disagree. Lots of (totally legal) things are harmful - especially in
competitive situations where money is involved. Is any of it black? NO. Is
it evil? Not in this society.

the

Post by SOD of the CoE
Church of Satan was attempting a novelty term control, possibly
thinking just what you assert above.

I think so.

Post by SOD of the CoE
# > # He argues that this religious group
# > # absorbs the deviants that society
# > # shuts out....
# Actually, they do tend to absorb that type now....
much of the personnel in "Satanis: the Devil's Mass" does appear this way.
it is dated 1969.

They looked more like they were just people goofing around - and
after-the-fact that is what Gilmore said they were actually doing. The only
way to know what they were actually doing at that time is to ask them - and
hope for a non-revised answer.

Post by SOD of the CoE
# Btw, when Lewis mentions the Satanic Reds, that IS mentioning the ddocs
geocities/satanicreds/ is the closest he comes. he has numerous
paragraphs in the entry but never mentions the DDocs in any way.

Well, I asked another Sr to do the inverview. He is aware of us - but we
are not really seen as typical western satanism at all (and we aren't.).

Post by SOD of the CoE
# > in life]". why not simply oppose and decimate such people?
# > sounds kind of weak in comparison to the 9 Satanic Statements.
# >
# > # help practicing Satanists, members of
# > # the Church of the Trapezoid[1], to accomplish
# > # their desires."
# >
# > resocialize, conform, refine societal conditioning. strange.
# > perhaps this was Satanism's attempt to get into academic
# > attention, appear tame, and undermine SRA scare-mongering.
#
# SRA came much later. At first, there was very non-materialist type
# mysticism there - spells and the like. I think you are trying to
# rewrite LaVey.
1972, mostly pre-SRA agreed, but the whole notion of 'satanic church'
not being about sacrificing children and pets was counter-cultural.
the Bogey was out there, and the CoS sought to grapple with it.

I call that putting a bull's eye on your back. But it was the 1960s. If
LaVey was alive now, and he was a BIG flag waver btw, he'd say Osamma is
evil. I don't even think that - tho I've used Osamma as a synonym for
bogeyman myself.

Post by SOD of the CoE
# > note: no real explanation as to religious worship or practice,
# > only "Black Magic and Satanism", whatever this means (never
# >
# > # "the Black Arts of witchcraft and magic";
# > # "the ancient art of Black Magic";
# >
# > here the researcher appears to give the impression that the
# > Church of Satan is primarily involved with Black Magic or
# > "the Black Arts", which is explained as including both
# > ordinary talismanic magic as well as resocialization
# > in order to work past the individual's nerdiness.
#
# At first it was.
actually only according to their own peculiar definitions that
do not really apply in the occult world.

Well, they did ceremonies, spells, that kind of thing. Hoped they'd work.
heh.

Post by SOD of the CoE
# > # "*how* magic "works," ...is the subject of this
# > # paper";
# >
# > how the talismanic magic "works" is never described, and
# > barely touched on. primarily Moody wants to focus on the
# > resocialization Behaviourism that his editor has approved.
# That is the problem with books published by a publisher.
# They have to stick to a guideline.
no, this is an academic text on religion. it is the editors and
the general environment he is pleasing, and apparently focus on
materialist psychology got the gig with the Church of Satan, in
spite of Moody's poor attention to detail and overall mistakes.

Yes, but as Ole pointed out in his essay, sticking to mistaken science and
wrong-headed ideas and ignoring what's out there today is not very
materialistic at all.

Post by SOD of the CoE
# > # p 357 "Black Magic and Satanism are not new phenomena,
# > # even in the West";
# >
# > more of the legendizing. no details are provided.
# Dennis Wheatley and Aleister Crowley.
Dennis Wheatley was a writer of fiction.

People did not read it so, even if he claimed it so. He was also the
equivalent of CiA operative in the UK! People believed it was based on
solid facts. I was there. I remember this very clearly. He was BIG.

Aleister Crowley

Post by SOD of the CoE
condemned what he called "black magic": the operation of
magic without connection to the Knowledge and Conversation
of the Holy Guardian Angel; cf. "Magick in Theory and
http://www.luckymojo.com/avidyana/shaitan/libernigris.fn
# > # "They ... turn to witchcraft out of envy and
# > # frustration";
# >
# > this paints a very uncomplimentary picture of members also.
# It is also what AE Waite had to say in the last chapter of his UNEDITED
# book. The edited version has the scathing last chapter ommitted! "The Book
# of Ceremonial Magic" is the unedited book. Keep in mind, "Solomon's" book
# The goetia was a big seller back then, too. That's all about demons, Bobo.
most of Waite's grimoire material has pieces missing.
to this extent Shah did a better job of conveying the information.
Waite was all hung up on people getting the technology.

Eh? The chapter in question claims that people that would resort to calling
up demons (real or not) to try to get what ordinary normal people go out and
get very easily on their own without force, are losers of the worst sort,
degenerate, sick and twisted, - because if they DID have power, political
power, they'd surely use the police state to get what they want - instead of
demons. That's a paraphrase, but Waite is very clear on this - and it's very
strongly stated. The entire book is an expose of complete bullshit, btw. I
have it. Uncensored.

Post by SOD of the CoE
# > # p 366 "In the Western tradition, the Devil clearly
# > # stands midway between the completely animal (or
# > # physical) and the completely human (or
# > # spiritual). He has a mixture of animal and human
# > # parts: he is hermaphroditic with a man's torso
# > # but a woman's breasts, with human arms but animal
# > # legs. He is the symbol of confusion between the
# > # animal and the spiritual."
# >
# > why does this imagery surround resocialization?
# > not explained.
#
# He also wrongly calls that the devil. It's not the devil.
amusingly, it *is* the Devil tarot card (after Levi), plus it
does conform to most conceptions of the Devil in some ways
(theriomorph, for example).

Slander of the Greek Pan androgyne. Pan is not the devil. The Devil is a
SPIRIT in Christianity, not a person or beast at all.

Post by SOD of the CoE
# And there is no "confusion" between the animal and the
# spiritual at all. They are ONE thing.
his language is convoluted. he mans between the objective
and the subjective. generally, intraspecial.
# > # The cross is hung upside down, and in some
# > # cults was and is used for other bizarre purposes
# > # of a sexual nature....
# >
# > we might wonder to what "cults" the author refers.
#
# Back then, a collection of COS authorized amulets included an upside down
# cross.
still does. Purging Talon's mark has one. I'm sure it's all over.
# >
# > # Notes and Excerpts in Reflection on Academic Text
# > # Moody's Churches and Resocialization Theory
# > # ---------------------------------------------------
# > # "Religious Movements in Contemporary America",
# > # by Irving I. Zaretsky and Mark P. Leone,
# > # and primarily the written expression of
# > # An Anthropological Investigation of
# > # Contemporary Satanism";
# > # the whole published by
# > # Princeton University Press, 1974.
END

Blazin' Tommy D.

2005-03-17 11:34:10 UTC

Post by Tani Jantsang Â©
Just saw this - gotta try to remember what were were chatting about...

See

Post by Tani Jantsang Â©
in.

[clip]

Post by Tani Jantsang Â©
Aleister Crowley

[clip]

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
BTD: (from alt.magick)

Hi Tani:)

Hi Siva:)

This is a pretty interesting piece you have here. The thing that makes it so
complicated is the attempt to reconcile the Black Brother challenge of
Master Therion (maybe some aspect/form of this dual person?) which appears
to be some sort of Rimbaudian like Odyssey into what is described as the
individual's emotions. So on the one hand it is claimed that one remains
above one's emotions like maybe this is how the person began their journey
while the others actually uses or dives down into the emotions to discover
their true self. But that both intend to achieve that same goal.

Looks to me like someone was influenced by Rimbaud and maybe they realized
what's the use of making the trip if you're not going to enjoy the ride:)

SOD of the CoE

2005-03-17 20:25:45 UTC

"Tani Jantsang ©" <***@SPAMpost.com> apparently about the late 60s:
# ...[Ouija] board, Tarot - all of that was "black arts."

possibly to conservative Christians or in pop-culture. for those
who were and are practitioner, Black Arts means something more
specific than anything occult, whether it is related to alchemy
(alchem) or to 'negative stuff' (applied to whatever is seen).
in specialization, Black Arts refers to necromancy/nigromancy
and dealing with demons, caustic magical operations, etc.

# ...Presenting the: Ouija Bowl. Take can of AUTHENTIC, GENUINE,
# Campbells Alphabet soup. Put soup in Ouija Bowl. Magically,
# the letters spell out prophecy....

lovely. making divination tools is fun. :) I made I Chunk once:
take three serpentine stones with orientations, throw them on
the ground and generate hexagrams. that's one of the great
things about divination is its variability and innovative aspect.

Tani:
#># it's not even magic or magick. People have their own definitions
#># of things.... it's about paradigms, not "YOUR definitions."

scientific understanding of the occult is possible, though few seem
interested in developing it. the application of rational structure
to the field of the occult is long-overdue and primarily the sport
of shysters and shams. some academics have taken long hard looks at
the past and come up with some decent categorical analyses. ignoring
these, occultists pretend that it's all malleable, the word salad is
sufficient to instruct My Novel Black Magic Tool, and be done with
it; presto, no authorities. the problem with this is that it isn't
really sustainable in any kind of examination of the facts.

#># To do otherwise would be patronizing, authoritarian and rigidly
#># pompous.

naw, now you're talking about the usual occultist mishmash speak.
attempting to derive sustainable scientific notions about how and
why magic and divination works is the true activity of adepts
interested in fomenting the intrusion of the occult into every
aspect of world culture. trying to pretend like no advances are
ever made and that it's all relative is the manner by which the
stage magicians preserve the illusion, but little is achieved
other than entertainment and flimflam.

#># Crowley was the Big One that came first when it comes to
#># western occultism.

he didn't come first, but in the late 20th century occult
revival he became a darling for a time. the OTO likes him.

#># His definition of Magick is "any act of Will."

#> not for black magic. he discerned it from his own "Magick"
#> which he coined for the purpose of competition with Blavatsky
#> and others.

you said you never read anything he wrote. if you look more
deeply you'll find that he differentiates "Magick" from other
occultist constructs (including magic, and black magic), plus
he provides at least 3 or 4 different definitions for what
that Magick is in his various written expositions. while you
are correct that volitional exercize is something which he
sought to connect with occult activity, few serious magicians
truly believe that brushing one's teeth is an act of magic.

as we've discussed in alt.magick several times (it is a FAQ
therein) such rudimentary volitional exercise is preliminary
but requires a symbolic matrix to effect the actual magic.
until then it is merely wishing or engineering (if applied).

#> he even eschewed the term 'Satanist', while invoking
#> Satan and considering his Holy Guardian Angel to *be*
#> 'Satan by any other name'.
#
# ..."that Satan" is tired....

it's getting a thorough work-out through time, plus it keeps
changing in appearance and character. Satanists have glorified
it to a degree, revising toward beneficence or admirability.

# ...I don't regard ANY of that as magic or magick.

right, you're of the Clarkean school, which effectively
disputes magic's existence except as an ephemeral illusion
transitioning toward science. of course you wouldn't think
that exercizing super(natural!) powers is not magic. those
powers are real to you, not just some if-we-don't-understand-
it-then-it-must-be-magic-type power.

#> ...typically the phrase 'black magic' within the context
#> of those who *accept magic as legitimate* is caustic or
#> harmful.
#
# ...Lots of (totally legal) things are harmful

sure, but I'm talking about occultism here and those who
actually practice magic and divination. very FEW things
which are considered harmful by occultists who actually
believe in it (unlike you) are illegal in my country.
maybe in some small backwater curses are illegal, but
by and large that isn't the case. it *is* funny how
much hesitation exists/existed in the Satanist subculture
surrounding the activity of cursing. this may display its
essentially Hermetic character (ceremonial magicians
and Wiccans are all hung up on it too, whereas hoodoo
conjures and many folk magic sectors don't bat an eye in
carrying out the heiniest of curses).

# - especially in competitive situations where money is
# involved.

money involved with occultism? that appears to be taboo
in Euro-based occult society. you can charge for healings
where therapy is the kick (New Age), but as soon as you
start taking money to cast spells, they're all over you
for doing "wrong things". again, it's somewhat amusing.

competitive? hm. I don't think Euro-baseds are really
comfortable enough with the occult outside some pristine
religiomystical affair to engage in it as a sport. we've
considered that occasionally in alt.magick/.chaos before --
exercize combat. it seems primarily the edge-walkers
like Chaoss Mayjuz and Discordians are into that. else
it takes the form of actual combat and witch-wars.

# Is any of it black? NO. Is it evil? Not in this society.

in this context of occultism, money makes it "black" as it
takes advantage of the conceived belief-based anybody-can-
do-this-stuff-so-there's-no-specialist mentality setting
up taboos on contracts. "evil" -- I don't use that word much
except to talk about things I oppose. it's too abused, a
tool like "drugs" castigating demonized targets by morons.

#>#># He argues that this religious group absorbs the
#>#># deviants that society shuts out....
#>#
#># Actually, they do tend to absorb that type now....

your previous contention was that that was not the case
initially in the CoS.

#> much of the personnel in "Satanis: the Devil's Mass"
#> does appear this way. it is dated 1969.
#
# They looked more like they were just people goofing
# around....

interviews within this video didn't give that impression.
they were trying to impress upon the viewer that they
were experiencing important things, not 'goofing around'.
I gather you haven't seen the video, else you'd know that
about half of it *is* interviews with the people themselves
and the folks that lived nearby to the Black House (humor!).

#>#> resocialize, conform, refine societal conditioning. strange.
#>#> perhaps this was Satanism's attempt to get into academic
#>#> attention, appear tame, and undermine SRA scare-mongering.
#>#
#># SRA came much later. At first, there was very non-materialist
#># type mysticism there - spells and the like....

btw, my impression over time is that much of the "mysticism" left
with the fracture of the Temple of Set. comparison between the
effect of consultation with either LaVey or Aquino for horror
flicks yields different results. LaVey's are less literate and
less other-worldly. Aquino's (like "Asylum of Satan", which
is schlock except for the 2-3 minute ritual Aquino wrote for
the film's amusing ending) are hi-falutin', Lovecraft-inducing,
and mysticoreligious, complete with Nine Angles and trapezoids.

#>#> note: no real explanation as to religious worship or practice,
#>#> only "Black Magic and Satanism", whatever this means (never
#>#> truly specified). e.g.:
#>#>
#>#># "the Black Arts of witchcraft and magic";
#>#># "the ancient art of Black Magic";
#>#>
#>#> here the researcher appears to give the impression that the
#>#> Church of Satan is primarily involved with Black Magic or
#>#> "the Black Arts", which is explained as including both
#>#> ordinary talismanic magic as well as resocialization
#>#> in order to work past the individual's nerdiness.
#>#
#># At first it was.

if you mean "it was conceived as such by these Satanists" then I'm
not so sure. if you mean "it was conceived as such by Christians
and those outside the occult world" then sure, it still is. the
point in general is that where the person considering it is aware
of the variety of occult terms and how they actually apply within
the field, rather than merely pastiche-labels applied from without,
this is rather blatantly sham and just about as much at odds with
occultists as the Satanism they constructed was at odds with the
demonizations and fantasies constructed by Christians. the whole
is twisted for notoriety purposes, apparently.

#> actually only according to their own peculiar definitions that
#> do not really apply in the occult world.
#
# Well, they did ceremonies, spells, that kind of thing. Hoped
# they'd work. heh.

ceremonies of the sort they were doing aren't really a big part
of the Black Arts per se, outside fundi Christian nightmares of it.
spells were done, this is true, and they seem rather conventional.
few curses are actually described in the material I've seen so far,
and that guarded about but the need for consensus. Lewis remarks on
this also. true black magicians and sorcerous individuals are less
hesitant about causing magical damage. the aim within these social
groups seems to have been positive change for themselves and the
AIR of controversy. they probably read some Pennethorne Hughes.

#>#># "*how* magic "works," ...is the subject of this paper";
#>#>
#>#> how the talismanic magic "works" is never described, and
#>#> barely touched on. primarily Moody wants to focus on the
#>#> resocialization Behaviourism that his editor has approved.

#> ...this is an academic text on religion. it is the editors and
#> the general environment he is pleasing, and apparently focus on
#> materialist psychology got the gig with the Church of Satan, in
#> spite of Moody's poor attention to detail and overall mistakes.

# ...as Ole pointed out in his essay, sticking to mistaken science

Behaviourism wasn't mistaken, as I understand it. that's where
Mooney is trying to come from in his analysis of some of their
magical activities (as resocialization for nerds). interestingly
a number of those who post to magical newsgroups are anti-magic
and recommend resocialization in precisely the same way for those
who ask about spells. maybe it is a faction of white society.

# and wrong-headed ideas and ignoring what's out there today

no idea to what you refer here. the point of my comment original
was that Moody the academic hasn't done his homework, isn't going
to do an exposition on magic (believe me, even Crowley was citing
more plausible academic sources than Moody has apparently read,
the former rarely doing so and the latter supposed to be giving
us a glimpse of the CoS's "psychological therapy 'magic'". why
he doesn't expose this as limited and a corruption of traditional
language (cf. Frazer, even Levi if you like) is peculiar. you're
apparently agreeing here, but not explaining why Moody is being
taken seriously by Lewis, who calls Moody "seminal" (likely on
account of its actual sociology).

worse, "Satanism Today: an Encyclopedia of Religion, Folklore,
and Popular Culture", for all the hooplah and promise, is somewhat
disappointing. Lewis is BADLY-researched at points, misses entire
strata of pop-culture demonics, and behaves NONacademically. his
'"Magical Religion and Modern Witchcraft" was far more thorough
and substantive, whereas this latter work is more on the order
of Baskin (whom I like but from whom I don't expect academic
standards within his "Dictionary of Satanism" -- a great text!).

# is not very materialistic at all.

science tends to be materialistic in a physicalist sense,
but mistaken science is definitely sad. Crowley did that
with his Hallowed Sex Magick Seekrets (Homunculus theories),
and also attempted to propagate the notion that Phallos=Penis.

#>#># p 357 "Black Magic and Satanism are not new phenomena,
#>#># even in the West";

#>#> more of the legendizing. no details are provided.
#>
#># Dennis Wheatley and Aleister Crowley.
#>
#> Dennis Wheatley was a writer of fiction.
#
# People did not read it so, even if he claimed it so.

stay with the context here: academics. Wheatley is NOT an
academic source, nor is Crowley, though at least Crowley
wasn't (exactly) writing fiction stories, as was Wheatley.
ok, Crowley wrote some fiction, but much of his material
is poetic and some he dictated and his women followers
with literacy skills penned for him.

# He was also the equivalent of CiA operative in the UK!

did he write any nonfiction?

# People believed it was based on solid facts....

sure. maybe fundies and the impressionable. are you talking
about any specific text, like "The Satanist" or "The Devil
Rides In" or something? if you were there, you might recall
the actual title of what you are saying they believed.

#># It is also what AE Waite had to say in the last chapter of his UNEDITED
#># book. The edited version has the scathing last chapter ommitted! "The
#># Book of Ceremonial Magic" is the unedited book. Keep in mind, "Solomon's"
#># book The goetia was a big seller back then, too. That's all about demons....
#>
#> most of Waite's grimoire material has pieces missing. to this extent Shah
#> did a better job of conveying the information. Waite was all hung up on
#> people getting the technology.
#
# Eh?

Idries Shah's "The Secret Lore of Magic". check it out sometime.
Shah tends not to be as wordy and intrude into that which he presents.

# The chapter in question ....

name? I've got a few copies of the text, but haven't looked too
closely at the chapter to which you're referring.

# claims that people that would resort to calling up demons (real or not)
# to try to get what ordinary normal people go out and get very easily on
# their own without force,

that's the premise of the Goetia, yes.

# are losers of the worst sort, degenerate, sick and twisted, - because
# if they DID have power, political power, they'd surely use the police
# state to get what they want - instead of demons. That's a paraphrase....

sounds like something it might be akin to some of Waite's other text.
he used bigger words and was more cagey about his condemnations.

# but Waite is very clear on this - and it's very strongly stated. The
# entire book is an expose of complete bullshit, btw. I have it.
# Uncensored.

key it in. it may already be online somewhere. search for key phrases.
do you think we should believe Waite for some reason about this?

quoting from Moody:
#>#># p 366 "In the Western tradition, the Devil clearly
#>#># stands midway between the completely animal (or
#>#># physical) and the completely human (or
#>#># spiritual). He has a mixture of animal and human
#>#># parts: he is hermaphroditic with a man's torso
#>#># but a woman's breasts, with human arms but animal
#>#># legs. He is the symbol of confusion between the
#>#># animal and the spiritual."
#>#>
#>#> why does this imagery surround resocialization?
#>#> not explained.
#>#
#># He also wrongly calls that the devil. It's not the devil.
#>
#> amusingly, it *is* the Devil tarot card (after Levi), plus it
#> does conform to most conceptions of the Devil in some ways
#> (theriomorph, for example).
#
# Slander of the Greek Pan androgyne. Pan is not the devil.
# The Devil is a SPIRIT in Christianity, not a person or beast at all.

depends on what level of Christianity. the most literate interpret
the Devil as a transphysical being, even a mere metaphor. the plebes
take it all the way to a monster in the underworld, purely physical.
it extends extravagantly into multicultural melange. consider the
form and character of Krampus from European St. Nick traditions
in the origins of 'Santa Claus', for example.

#># Back then, a collection of COS authorized amulets included an
#># upside down cross.
#>
#> still does. Purging Talon's mark has one. I'm sure it's all over.

were you thinking that they ditched the upside-down cross thing?

oh, btw, in videos HP Gilmore wears Christian-*like* get-ups, but
the bit at his throat is sometimes *red* instead of white. I can
imagine varying it all the way to purple (the shock of it! ;>).

blessed beast!

boboroshi at-sign satanservice.org: Satanic Outreach Director
Church of Euthanasia: http://www.churchofeuthanasia.org/
TOKUS WEBLINKS: http://dmoz.org/Bookmarks/B/boboroshi/
Ninth Scholar's Library (Satanism Archive): http://www.satanservice.org/

Blazin' Tommy D.

2005-03-17 22:33:17 UTC

(from alt.magick) This post is desperately in need of a thesis statement - I
had to top post, no one would have had time to scroll down that far:o

Post by SOD of the CoE
# ...[Ouija] board, Tarot - all of that was "black arts."
possibly to conservative Christians or in pop-culture. for those
who were and are practitioner, Black Arts means something more
specific than anything occult, whether it is related to alchemy
(alchem) or to 'negative stuff' (applied to whatever is seen).
in specialization, Black Arts refers to necromancy/nigromancy
and dealing with demons, caustic magical operations, etc.
# ...Presenting the: Ouija Bowl. Take can of AUTHENTIC, GENUINE,
# Campbells Alphabet soup. Put soup in Ouija Bowl. Magically,
# the letters spell out prophecy....
take three serpentine stones with orientations, throw them on
the ground and generate hexagrams. that's one of the great
things about divination is its variability and innovative aspect.
#># it's not even magic or magick. People have their own definitions
#># of things.... it's about paradigms, not "YOUR definitions."
scientific understanding of the occult is possible, though few seem
interested in developing it. the application of rational structure
to the field of the occult is long-overdue and primarily the sport
of shysters and shams. some academics have taken long hard looks at
the past and come up with some decent categorical analyses. ignoring
these, occultists pretend that it's all malleable, the word salad is
sufficient to instruct My Novel Black Magic Tool, and be done with
it; presto, no authorities. the problem with this is that it isn't
really sustainable in any kind of examination of the facts.
#># To do otherwise would be patronizing, authoritarian and rigidly
#># pompous.
naw, now you're talking about the usual occultist mishmash speak.
attempting to derive sustainable scientific notions about how and
why magic and divination works is the true activity of adepts
interested in fomenting the intrusion of the occult into every
aspect of world culture. trying to pretend like no advances are
ever made and that it's all relative is the manner by which the
stage magicians preserve the illusion, but little is achieved
other than entertainment and flimflam.
#># Crowley was the Big One that came first when it comes to
#># western occultism.
he didn't come first, but in the late 20th century occult
revival he became a darling for a time. the OTO likes him.
#># His definition of Magick is "any act of Will."
#> not for black magic. he discerned it from his own "Magick"
#> which he coined for the purpose of competition with Blavatsky
#> and others.
you said you never read anything he wrote. if you look more
deeply you'll find that he differentiates "Magick" from other
occultist constructs (including magic, and black magic), plus
he provides at least 3 or 4 different definitions for what
that Magick is in his various written expositions. while you
are correct that volitional exercize is something which he
sought to connect with occult activity, few serious magicians
truly believe that brushing one's teeth is an act of magic.
as we've discussed in alt.magick several times (it is a FAQ
therein) such rudimentary volitional exercise is preliminary
but requires a symbolic matrix to effect the actual magic.
until then it is merely wishing or engineering (if applied).
#> he even eschewed the term 'Satanist', while invoking
#> Satan and considering his Holy Guardian Angel to *be*
#> 'Satan by any other name'.
#
# ..."that Satan" is tired....
it's getting a thorough work-out through time, plus it keeps
changing in appearance and character. Satanists have glorified
it to a degree, revising toward beneficence or admirability.
# ...I don't regard ANY of that as magic or magick.
right, you're of the Clarkean school, which effectively
disputes magic's existence except as an ephemeral illusion
transitioning toward science. of course you wouldn't think
that exercizing super(natural!) powers is not magic. those
powers are real to you, not just some if-we-don't-understand-
it-then-it-must-be-magic-type power.
#> ...typically the phrase 'black magic' within the context
#> of those who *accept magic as legitimate* is caustic or
#> harmful.
#
# ...Lots of (totally legal) things are harmful
sure, but I'm talking about occultism here and those who
actually practice magic and divination. very FEW things
which are considered harmful by occultists who actually
believe in it (unlike you) are illegal in my country.
maybe in some small backwater curses are illegal, but
by and large that isn't the case. it *is* funny how
much hesitation exists/existed in the Satanist subculture
surrounding the activity of cursing. this may display its
essentially Hermetic character (ceremonial magicians
and Wiccans are all hung up on it too, whereas hoodoo
conjures and many folk magic sectors don't bat an eye in
carrying out the heiniest of curses).
# - especially in competitive situations where money is
# involved.
money involved with occultism? that appears to be taboo
in Euro-based occult society. you can charge for healings
where therapy is the kick (New Age), but as soon as you
start taking money to cast spells, they're all over you
for doing "wrong things". again, it's somewhat amusing.
competitive? hm. I don't think Euro-baseds are really
comfortable enough with the occult outside some pristine
religiomystical affair to engage in it as a sport. we've
considered that occasionally in alt.magick/.chaos before --
exercize combat. it seems primarily the edge-walkers
like Chaoss Mayjuz and Discordians are into that. else
it takes the form of actual combat and witch-wars.
# Is any of it black? NO. Is it evil? Not in this society.
in this context of occultism, money makes it "black" as it
takes advantage of the conceived belief-based anybody-can-
do-this-stuff-so-there's-no-specialist mentality setting
up taboos on contracts. "evil" -- I don't use that word much
except to talk about things I oppose. it's too abused, a
tool like "drugs" castigating demonized targets by morons.
#>#># He argues that this religious group absorbs the
#>#># deviants that society shuts out....
#>#
#># Actually, they do tend to absorb that type now....
your previous contention was that that was not the case
initially in the CoS.
#> much of the personnel in "Satanis: the Devil's Mass"
#> does appear this way. it is dated 1969.
#
# They looked more like they were just people goofing
# around....
interviews within this video didn't give that impression.
they were trying to impress upon the viewer that they
were experiencing important things, not 'goofing around'.
I gather you haven't seen the video, else you'd know that
about half of it *is* interviews with the people themselves
and the folks that lived nearby to the Black House (humor!).
#>#> resocialize, conform, refine societal conditioning. strange.
#>#> perhaps this was Satanism's attempt to get into academic
#>#> attention, appear tame, and undermine SRA scare-mongering.
#>#
#># SRA came much later. At first, there was very non-materialist
#># type mysticism there - spells and the like....
btw, my impression over time is that much of the "mysticism" left
with the fracture of the Temple of Set. comparison between the
effect of consultation with either LaVey or Aquino for horror
flicks yields different results. LaVey's are less literate and
less other-worldly. Aquino's (like "Asylum of Satan", which
is schlock except for the 2-3 minute ritual Aquino wrote for
the film's amusing ending) are hi-falutin', Lovecraft-inducing,
and mysticoreligious, complete with Nine Angles and trapezoids.
#>#> note: no real explanation as to religious worship or practice,
#>#> only "Black Magic and Satanism", whatever this means (never
#>#>
#>#># "the Black Arts of witchcraft and magic";
#>#># "the ancient art of Black Magic";
#>#>
#>#> here the researcher appears to give the impression that the
#>#> Church of Satan is primarily involved with Black Magic or
#>#> "the Black Arts", which is explained as including both
#>#> ordinary talismanic magic as well as resocialization
#>#> in order to work past the individual's nerdiness.
#>#
#># At first it was.
if you mean "it was conceived as such by these Satanists" then I'm
not so sure. if you mean "it was conceived as such by Christians
and those outside the occult world" then sure, it still is. the
point in general is that where the person considering it is aware
of the variety of occult terms and how they actually apply within
the field, rather than merely pastiche-labels applied from without,
this is rather blatantly sham and just about as much at odds with
occultists as the Satanism they constructed was at odds with the
demonizations and fantasies constructed by Christians. the whole
is twisted for notoriety purposes, apparently.
#> actually only according to their own peculiar definitions that
#> do not really apply in the occult world.
#
# Well, they did ceremonies, spells, that kind of thing. Hoped
# they'd work. heh.
ceremonies of the sort they were doing aren't really a big part
of the Black Arts per se, outside fundi Christian nightmares of it.
spells were done, this is true, and they seem rather conventional.
few curses are actually described in the material I've seen so far,
and that guarded about but the need for consensus. Lewis remarks on
this also. true black magicians and sorcerous individuals are less
hesitant about causing magical damage. the aim within these social
groups seems to have been positive change for themselves and the
AIR of controversy. they probably read some Pennethorne Hughes.
#>#># "*how* magic "works," ...is the subject of this paper";
#>#>
#>#> how the talismanic magic "works" is never described, and
#>#> barely touched on. primarily Moody wants to focus on the
#>#> resocialization Behaviourism that his editor has approved.
#> ...this is an academic text on religion. it is the editors and
#> the general environment he is pleasing, and apparently focus on
#> materialist psychology got the gig with the Church of Satan, in
#> spite of Moody's poor attention to detail and overall mistakes.
# ...as Ole pointed out in his essay, sticking to mistaken science
Behaviourism wasn't mistaken, as I understand it. that's where
Mooney is trying to come from in his analysis of some of their
magical activities (as resocialization for nerds). interestingly
a number of those who post to magical newsgroups are anti-magic
and recommend resocialization in precisely the same way for those
who ask about spells. maybe it is a faction of white society.
# and wrong-headed ideas and ignoring what's out there today
no idea to what you refer here. the point of my comment original
was that Moody the academic hasn't done his homework, isn't going
to do an exposition on magic (believe me, even Crowley was citing
more plausible academic sources than Moody has apparently read,
the former rarely doing so and the latter supposed to be giving
us a glimpse of the CoS's "psychological therapy 'magic'". why
he doesn't expose this as limited and a corruption of traditional
language (cf. Frazer, even Levi if you like) is peculiar. you're
apparently agreeing here, but not explaining why Moody is being
taken seriously by Lewis, who calls Moody "seminal" (likely on
account of its actual sociology).
worse, "Satanism Today: an Encyclopedia of Religion, Folklore,
and Popular Culture", for all the hooplah and promise, is somewhat
disappointing. Lewis is BADLY-researched at points, misses entire
strata of pop-culture demonics, and behaves NONacademically. his
'"Magical Religion and Modern Witchcraft" was far more thorough
and substantive, whereas this latter work is more on the order
of Baskin (whom I like but from whom I don't expect academic
standards within his "Dictionary of Satanism" -- a great text!).
# is not very materialistic at all.
science tends to be materialistic in a physicalist sense,
but mistaken science is definitely sad. Crowley did that
with his Hallowed Sex Magick Seekrets (Homunculus theories),
and also attempted to propagate the notion that Phallos=Penis.
#>#># p 357 "Black Magic and Satanism are not new phenomena,
#>#># even in the West";
#>#> more of the legendizing. no details are provided.
#>
#># Dennis Wheatley and Aleister Crowley.
#>
#> Dennis Wheatley was a writer of fiction.
#
# People did not read it so, even if he claimed it so.
stay with the context here: academics. Wheatley is NOT an
academic source, nor is Crowley, though at least Crowley
wasn't (exactly) writing fiction stories, as was Wheatley.
ok, Crowley wrote some fiction, but much of his material
is poetic and some he dictated and his women followers
with literacy skills penned for him.
# He was also the equivalent of CiA operative in the UK!
did he write any nonfiction?
# People believed it was based on solid facts....
sure. maybe fundies and the impressionable. are you talking
about any specific text, like "The Satanist" or "The Devil
Rides In" or something? if you were there, you might recall
the actual title of what you are saying they believed.
#># It is also what AE Waite had to say in the last chapter of his UNEDITED
#># book. The edited version has the scathing last chapter ommitted!

"The

Post by SOD of the CoE
#># Book of Ceremonial Magic" is the unedited book. Keep in mind, "Solomon's"
#># book The goetia was a big seller back then, too. That's all about demons....
#>
#> most of Waite's grimoire material has pieces missing. to this extent Shah
#> did a better job of conveying the information. Waite was all hung up on
#> people getting the technology.
#
# Eh?
Idries Shah's "The Secret Lore of Magic". check it out sometime.
Shah tends not to be as wordy and intrude into that which he presents.
# The chapter in question ....
name? I've got a few copies of the text, but haven't looked too
closely at the chapter to which you're referring.
# claims that people that would resort to calling up demons (real or not)
# to try to get what ordinary normal people go out and get very easily on
# their own without force,
that's the premise of the Goetia, yes.
# are losers of the worst sort, degenerate, sick and twisted, - because
# if they DID have power, political power, they'd surely use the police
# state to get what they want - instead of demons. That's a paraphrase....
sounds like something it might be akin to some of Waite's other text.
he used bigger words and was more cagey about his condemnations.
# but Waite is very clear on this - and it's very strongly stated. The
# entire book is an expose of complete bullshit, btw. I have it.
# Uncensored.
key it in. it may already be online somewhere. search for key phrases.
do you think we should believe Waite for some reason about this?
#>#># p 366 "In the Western tradition, the Devil clearly
#>#># stands midway between the completely animal (or
#>#># physical) and the completely human (or
#>#># spiritual). He has a mixture of animal and human
#>#># parts: he is hermaphroditic with a man's torso
#>#># but a woman's breasts, with human arms but animal
#>#># legs. He is the symbol of confusion between the
#>#># animal and the spiritual."
#>#>
#>#> why does this imagery surround resocialization?
#>#> not explained.
#>#
#># He also wrongly calls that the devil. It's not the devil.
#>
#> amusingly, it *is* the Devil tarot card (after Levi), plus it
#> does conform to most conceptions of the Devil in some ways
#> (theriomorph, for example).
#
# Slander of the Greek Pan androgyne. Pan is not the devil.
# The Devil is a SPIRIT in Christianity, not a person or beast at all.
depends on what level of Christianity. the most literate interpret
the Devil as a transphysical being, even a mere metaphor. the plebes
take it all the way to a monster in the underworld, purely physical.
it extends extravagantly into multicultural melange. consider the
form and character of Krampus from European St. Nick traditions
in the origins of 'Santa Claus', for example.
#># Back then, a collection of COS authorized amulets included an
#># upside down cross.
#>
#> still does. Purging Talon's mark has one. I'm sure it's all over.
were you thinking that they ditched the upside-down cross thing?
oh, btw, in videos HP Gilmore wears Christian-*like* get-ups, but
the bit at his throat is sometimes *red* instead of white. I can
imagine varying it all the way to purple (the shock of it! ;>).
blessed beast!
boboroshi at-sign satanservice.org: Satanic Outreach Director
Church of Euthanasia: http://www.churchofeuthanasia.org/
TOKUS WEBLINKS: http://dmoz.org/Bookmarks/B/boboroshi/
Ninth Scholar's Library (Satanism Archive): http://www.satanservice.org/

Tani Jantsang ©

2005-03-18 02:39:19 UTC

No no no - even gypsies (I used to see them in NJ) were always considered
necromancers of some type, usually spiritual, with demonic knowledge and
such - and so were WE considered that, Bobo. Do you think we appreciated
that? Uh, NO.

Post by SOD of the CoE
# ...Presenting the: Ouija Bowl. Take can of AUTHENTIC, GENUINE,
# Campbells Alphabet soup. Put soup in Ouija Bowl. Magically,
# the letters spell out prophecy....
take three serpentine stones with orientations, throw them on
the ground and generate hexagrams. that's one of the great
things about divination is its variability and innovative aspect.

Gee, you did NOT think that was hilariously funny?

Post by SOD of the CoE
#># it's not even magic or magick. People have their own definitions
#># of things.... it's about paradigms, not "YOUR definitions."
scientific understanding of the occult is possible, though few seem
interested in developing it. the application of rational structure
to the field of the occult is long-overdue and primarily the sport
of shysters and shams. some academics have taken long hard looks at
the past and come up with some decent categorical analyses. ignoring
these, occultists pretend that it's all malleable, the word salad is
sufficient to instruct My Novel Black Magic Tool, and be done with
it; presto, no authorities. the problem with this is that it isn't
really sustainable in any kind of examination of the facts.

Ok, you know my stance. Nothing is supernatural - it's natural even if not
yet explained. All of it has to do with neurology. Words of power to one
are nothing to another. Same with words of power that can hurt people, in
whatever way. The definitions of magic vary - and are often not even
applied in some circumstances. Example: a bunch of people in a high school,
the number one clique types, they single out this one student, a plain
looking guy that always gets good grades and minds his own business. They
torment the shit out him with WORDS, only words! Surely, it wouldn't work
if the guy didn't speak and understand English, right? But he does
understand it. Eventually, that person they're picking on, his grades get
worse, his posture changes. And so forth. That's NOT magic? That is
exactly what BLACK MAGIC is - when it's used to harm. What the fuck does
anyone THINK it is? Oh, it can be explained - and it is explained - but let
the person who lived thru it explain it (he did, he made a movie
documentary) and what he has to say sounds pretty damned mystical and
occult - for damned sure. He said that eventually he began to identify with
the names they called him, as if he REALLY WAS that? His entire perception
of his own **BEING** changed, Bobo. That's not magic? OH fuck yes it is.
And it's ....never mind. You'll get sarcastic. I'll say it this way - it's
why bullies like that NEVER fuck with some people - because they do not want
that shit turned back on them and slammed so hard down their throats that
they will go to their death beds in old age REMEMBERING that day vividly.
How do they know? Instinct? Intuition? Now, let us say that the bullies
were in monetary competition with this guy. That is surely a magical way
to destroy the competition. They didn't lift a finger. They just said
words.

That whole schtick about "descending into your emotions" or "distancing self
from them" is a bunch of schizoid rubbish for people with a neurological
split. SOME folks know god damned well what they are feeling at the MOMENT
they feel it. That's normal - not some kind of "Adept Magical Stage." It's
NORMAL. Crowley was fucked up, he was sexually fucked up too - and baby
that's the main thing - if that's fucked up the rest of the person is gonna
be a waste, imo . No, not imo. I know it. Like a car with no engine - no
changing the tire (studying rityools) is gonna fix it. They should just
freaking give it up. Empty people perpetually searching to fill up their
holes. That's how I see them. It reminds me of Nietzsche, a mind sick with
syphillis, grappling with his own dualism - FINALLY he realizes that "self
overcoming" is without any effort at all. DUHHHHH. His BIG enlightenment.
Something a normal KID should know by living life. Self overcoming is not
exactly like learning how to lay tiles on a floor, you know. (That takes
effort, LMAO). These people, imo, have NO self - that is why they are so
damned obsessed with the self. They have sick twisted emotions that RULE
them - that is why they are obsessed with that, always grappling with
themselves. Sheesh. I told you, I avoid people like that because they are
a plague.

Post by SOD of the CoE
#># To do otherwise would be patronizing, authoritarian and rigidly
#># pompous.
naw, now you're talking about the usual occultist mishmash speak.
attempting to derive sustainable scientific notions about how and
why magic and divination works is the true activity of adepts
interested in fomenting the intrusion of the occult into every
aspect of world culture.

True Adepts never tried to do that in the past. Esoteric schools were not
public schools.

trying to pretend like no advances are

Post by SOD of the CoE
ever made and that it's all relative is the manner by which the
stage magicians preserve the illusion, but little is achieved
other than entertainment and flimflam.
#># Crowley was the Big One that came first when it comes to
#># western occultism.
he didn't come first, but in the late 20th century occult
revival he became a darling for a time. the OTO likes him.
#># His definition of Magick is "any act of Will."
#> not for black magic. he discerned it from his own "Magick"
#> which he coined for the purpose of competition with Blavatsky
#> and others.
you said you never read anything he wrote.

Hardly anything. I read Book of Law. SOME of his theory and practice
(sounded pretty practical to me!). Got bored with it.

if you look more

Post by SOD of the CoE
deeply you'll find that he differentiates "Magick" from other
occultist constructs (including magic, and black magic), plus
he provides at least 3 or 4 different definitions for what
that Magick is in his various written expositions. while you
are correct that volitional exercize is something which he
sought to connect with occult activity, few serious magicians
truly believe that brushing one's teeth is an act of magic.

Bobo . . . . . I know what "magic of the darkness is." Leave it at that.
I know what magic using the "light" is too - and you can see fast results
from it. Magic of the darkness is slow, seeps in, and the effects of it can
be pretty big - and often NOT 100% what you expected. I don't think magic
of the light is magic - anyone can do it - people DO do it even without
realizing it. Magic of the dark - it's something else. I never met anyone
"INTO" the occult able to do a bit of it except call it down on themselves
and further fuck up their own already fucked up beings. I fear nothing on
the spiritual level. I've said that before. Point is, spirtual and magical
stuff is NOT gonna lay tiles down for ya. So many of these "magical" people
don't even know how to use common sense to get the normal everyday things
needed for regular life, or get anything done. They can't hold it together
at all. So much for that. Dismissed.

OH - an aside. dumai and renmai chakra system is not the one identical to
shushumna. Ren and du are about acupuncture. Chong mai is identical to
shushumna. When I get ALL the words, I'll make a chart. Some of it ha ha,
was up on a website all this time, too - one of those urls you didn't look
at :)

Post by SOD of the CoE
as we've discussed in alt.magick several times (it is a FAQ
therein) such rudimentary volitional exercise is preliminary
but requires a symbolic matrix to effect the actual magic.
until then it is merely wishing or engineering (if applied).

Well, as Harreee said - Randi is always there to help science prove magic.
Take the challenge.

Post by SOD of the CoE
#> he even eschewed the term 'Satanist', while invoking
#> Satan and considering his Holy Guardian Angel to *be*
#> 'Satan by any other name'.
#
# ..."that Satan" is tired....
it's getting a thorough work-out through time, plus it keeps
changing in appearance and character. Satanists have glorified
it to a degree, revising toward beneficence or admirability.

It's tired. It's even tired in the world we live in today. Is Osamma evil
or not? Are we the Great Satan or not? Tired. Shit, who was that big
preacher's wife? She's pals with karla Lavey. So if her Satan is your
Satan, then that Satan is a-ok according to one of the biggest well known
preachers in the USA.

Post by SOD of the CoE
# ...I don't regard ANY of that as magic or magick.
right, you're of the Clarkean school, which effectively
disputes magic's existence except as an ephemeral illusion
transitioning toward science.

Clarkian, interesting. At least you didn't say Jantsangian. LOL. I have
my own views - and I arrived at them myself. Thank ya. Living with a
person since 1974 that studied the hard sciences all his life - who pins me
down trying to find out WHAT I'm doing, HOW I'm doing it - well, that aids
in understanding that it CAN be explained - and who knows, maybe someone IS
studying it.

of course you wouldn't think

Post by SOD of the CoE
that exercizing super(natural!) powers is not magic. those
powers are real to you, not just some if-we-don't-understand-
it-then-it-must-be-magic-type power.

Heh, if I do something, it's real to anyone that sees me do it, or is
affected by it. As real as if I hit them with my hand, or handed them food.
I do not think it's magic - even IF some folks can not do it. Some people
can't catch a ball, Bobo. Consider what goes ito catching a ball hurling at
you at a fast speed. The brain is calculating FAST. The body has to react,
FAST. Every instinct in your being says: DUCK. So then, did the super
primitive aborigines that invented an aerodynamically perfect boomerang know
aerodynamics or any of Newton's laws? No, but they invented the thing and
know how to use it quite well. HOW? HOW did they do it? That is a
mystery, a real mystery and trial and error just doesn't cut it for any
explanation.

Post by SOD of the CoE
#> ...typically the phrase 'black magic' within the context
#> of those who *accept magic as legitimate* is caustic or
#> harmful.
#
# ...Lots of (totally legal) things are harmful
sure, but I'm talking about occultism here and those who
actually practice magic and divination. very FEW things
which are considered harmful by occultists who actually
believe in it (unlike you) are illegal in my country.

I'm in the USA too. A judge once had a voodoo practioner arrested cause he
sent away to Haiti for "stuff" to harm the judge. LMAO. (it was probably
real poison). I know what they believe - and imo they believe in very
simplistic explanations because they are stupid (sorry). I'm talking about
legit stuff now, not delusional ravings of schizos. That girl in Phoenix,
the Medium they made a show from, Mrs. Dubois (forgot her first name) - WHY
doesn't someone study her brain and find out what's going on - how she does
that? Karabog sticks its fingers in the hot swirling mass and stirs it. It
cools down and stars are born that swirl around the hole made by Karabog.
Of course the hole is black, like Karabog is black or "total absense of
light." How do we know this? Thru our FLESH - and we SAY that, openly, to
anyone that asks. That is a fine definition for recently discovered super
massive black holes that are responsible for creation AND destruction of
every galaxy out there. They ALL have these black holes in them, they spin
around them, and there is a direct mathematical correlation between the mass
of those galaxies and the mass of those black holes. VIOLA! The more they
find out, the more it AGREES with our cosmology - all gotten by us via
shamanic trance means. Go figure. You call what we do to know this magic.
I do not. I say it is WITHIN us to know - because we all came FROM it.
It's like memory. You do realize you are talking across a HUGE cultural
gulf yes? I may be Americanized, but my inner being is pretty far from
anything American - or western. I think people who are not able to figure
out what they are doing and explain it in a way that is in line with FACTS
of chemistry, neurology, whatever - are just STUPID. Sorry if I offend
anyone. And before you ask, Karabog is not a being, not an entity, it is
not centralized. It's nothing anyone with "gods" can relate to - I found
that out and still see they can NOT relate to it.

But regarding first sentence, think of the zombies. OH, NOW they know HOW
that's done. Mehhh, no magic involved at all. Do they know how that
chemical workd? At the time I heard of them researching it, they did not.

Post by SOD of the CoE
maybe in some small backwater curses are illegal, but
by and large that isn't the case. it *is* funny how
much hesitation exists/existed in the Satanist subculture
surrounding the activity of cursing.

Hesitation? LMAO. Uh, no.

this may display its

Post by SOD of the CoE
essentially Hermetic character (ceremonial magicians
and Wiccans are all hung up on it too, whereas hoodoo
conjures and many folk magic sectors don't bat an eye in
carrying out the heiniest of curses).

Same in my culture - but we don't go TALK about it to outsiders (Ask Cat, we
all wear halos :). Lots of those voodoo curses are actual poisoning, too.
Well, white folks involved in ceremonial magic and wicca ain't quite like
the darker folks who also tolerate a great many other things without batting
their eyes.

Post by SOD of the CoE
# - especially in competitive situations where money is
# involved.

Note - you snipped so much that I don't remember what we were saying, or why
I brought up money. Been kinda busy lately - it would be best to leave it
so I can read what you responded to.

Post by SOD of the CoE
money involved with occultism? that appears to be taboo
in Euro-based occult society. you can charge for healings
where therapy is the kick (New Age), but as soon as you
start taking money to cast spells, they're all over you
for doing "wrong things". again, it's somewhat amusing.

Not my experience.

Post by SOD of the CoE
competitive? hm. I don't think Euro-baseds are really
comfortable enough with the occult outside some pristine
religiomystical affair to engage in it as a sport. we've
considered that occasionally in alt.magick/.chaos before --
exercize combat. it seems primarily the edge-walkers
like Chaoss Mayjuz and Discordians are into that. else
it takes the form of actual combat and witch-wars.

I meant, I think, a witch that does spell to get advance in job. She has to
know that if she gets it thru occult means (real or imaginary) she has
deprived another person competing with her, of that job. And the $$$ money.

Post by SOD of the CoE
# Is any of it black? NO. Is it evil? Not in this society.
in this context of occultism, money makes it "black"

Hmm, intersting. So, doing magic for gain is black? Heh. News to me.

as it

Post by SOD of the CoE
takes advantage of the conceived belief-based anybody-can-
do-this-stuff-so-there's-no-specialist mentality setting
up taboos on contracts. "evil" -- I don't use that word much
except to talk about things I oppose. it's too abused, a
tool like "drugs" castigating demonized targets by morons.
#>#># He argues that this religious group absorbs the
#>#># deviants that society shuts out....
#>#
#># Actually, they do tend to absorb that type now....
your previous contention was that that was not the case
initially in the CoS.

Yep, not from what I saw and heard back then.

Post by SOD of the CoE
#> much of the personnel in "Satanis: the Devil's Mass"
#> does appear this way. it is dated 1969.
#
# They looked more like they were just people goofing
# around....
interviews within this video didn't give that impression.
they were trying to impress upon the viewer that they
were experiencing important things, not 'goofing around'.
I gather you haven't seen the video,

I have the video. They gave it to me. I know what Gilmore and Lavey both
said about it - they were goofing around. SIC! It was for the rubes, just
a show.

else you'd know that

Post by SOD of the CoE
about half of it *is* interviews with the people themselves
and the folks that lived nearby to the Black House (humor!).
#>#> resocialize, conform, refine societal conditioning. strange.
#>#> perhaps this was Satanism's attempt to get into academic
#>#> attention, appear tame, and undermine SRA scare-mongering.
#>#
#># SRA came much later. At first, there was very non-materialist
#># type mysticism there - spells and the like....
btw, my impression over time is that much of the "mysticism" left
with the fracture of the Temple of Set. comparison between the
effect of consultation with either LaVey or Aquino for horror
flicks yields different results.

Wrong impression. TOS people, including Magisters are VERY mystical and
into iniatory stuff. STILL. I know it for a fact, but I won't say on here
HOW I know it. In private - email me.
I don't know what you mean by horror flicks and consultation. Aquino was
not part of the making of Satanis. From what I know of the Storm, it's
kinda sexualized and tantrik. TOS is a lot more cerebral and studious and
not into tantra. I directly asked about it.

LaVey's are less literate and

Post by SOD of the CoE
less other-worldly. Aquino's (like "Asylum of Satan", which
is schlock except for the 2-3 minute ritual Aquino wrote for
the film's amusing ending) are hi-falutin', Lovecraft-inducing,
and mysticoreligious, complete with Nine Angles and trapezoids.

LaVey got a lot more atheists in his org, people ike Gilmore who, truth to
tell, if we told him "YOU GOTTA get this book" he'd get it - fast too.
Always pure science - nothing even remotely mystical or religious. Contrary
to the lay members who imo were stupid people, Phil and I were seen as two
people bringing SCIENCE into the org - not DDocs. We never gave them DDocs.
Vad sort of did that - maybe by accident, by putting commentary to it on his
website. But the thing is, LaVey handed out the Mags for the DDocs - NOT
for the science. The science was getting in there as soon as we showed up -
but a lot of it was also overshadowed by the nazi element getting in there.
But none of THAT was mystical either. TOS, as a big contrast, gets bonafide
mystics, like serious student types.

Post by SOD of the CoE
#>#> note: no real explanation as to religious worship or practice,
#>#> only "Black Magic and Satanism", whatever this means (never
#>#>
#>#># "the Black Arts of witchcraft and magic";
#>#># "the ancient art of Black Magic";
#>#>
#>#> here the researcher appears to give the impression that the
#>#> Church of Satan is primarily involved with Black Magic or
#>#> "the Black Arts", which is explained as including both
#>#> ordinary talismanic magic as well as resocialization
#>#> in order to work past the individual's nerdiness.
#>#
#># At first it was.
if you mean "it was conceived as such by these Satanists" then I'm
not so sure. if you mean "it was conceived as such by Christians

WHO do you think these Satanists were? Buddhists? Hindus? Hello? They
WERE Christians - who decided to switch religion.

Post by SOD of the CoE
and those outside the occult world" then sure, it still is. the
point in general is that where the person considering it is aware
of the variety of occult terms and how they actually apply within
the field, rather than merely pastiche-labels applied from without,
this is rather blatantly sham and just about as much at odds with
occultists as the Satanism they constructed was at odds with the
demonizations and fantasies constructed by Christians. the whole
is twisted for notoriety purposes, apparently.

Look, the thinking on it is very simple. Take the O board, OK? What's
moving that planchette? There you have it. It is demonic in the opinion of
MANY people, not just some Christians. Most Christians I run into think
things like that are a joke - YOU are moving the planchette. Otherwise, why
put hands on it? Don't touch it, see if it moves, LMAO.

Post by SOD of the CoE
#> actually only according to their own peculiar definitions that
#> do not really apply in the occult world.
#
# Well, they did ceremonies, spells, that kind of thing. Hoped
# they'd work. heh.
ceremonies of the sort they were doing aren't really a big part
of the Black Arts per se, outside fundi Christian nightmares of it.
spells were done, this is true, and they seem rather conventional.
few curses are actually described in the material I've seen so far,
and that guarded about but the need for consensus. Lewis remarks on
this also. true black magicians and sorcerous individuals are less
hesitant about causing magical damage. the aim within these social
groups seems to have been positive change for themselves and the
AIR of controversy. they probably read some Pennethorne Hughes.

I agree with Lewis - and truly sorcerous people wouldn't do it with a group
or any witnesses around. And then they'd DENY they did it. :) After all,
prove it's NOT a coincidence! You can not.

Post by SOD of the CoE
#>#># "*how* magic "works," ...is the subject of this paper";
#>#>
#>#> how the talismanic magic "works" is never described, and
#>#> barely touched on. primarily Moody wants to focus on the
#>#> resocialization Behaviourism that his editor has approved.
#> ...this is an academic text on religion. it is the editors and
#> the general environment he is pleasing, and apparently focus on
#> materialist psychology got the gig with the Church of Satan, in
#> spite of Moody's poor attention to detail and overall mistakes.
# ...as Ole pointed out in his essay, sticking to mistaken science
Behaviourism wasn't mistaken, as I understand it. that's where
Mooney is trying to come from in his analysis of some of their
magical activities (as resocialization for nerds). interestingly
a number of those who post to magical newsgroups are anti-magic
and recommend resocialization in precisely the same way for those
who ask about spells. maybe it is a faction of white society.

Ya think? LOL.

Post by SOD of the CoE
# and wrong-headed ideas and ignoring what's out there today
no idea to what you refer here. the point of my comment original
was that Moody the academic hasn't done his homework, isn't going
to do an exposition on magic (believe me, even Crowley was citing
more plausible academic sources than Moody has apparently read,
the former rarely doing so and the latter supposed to be giving
us a glimpse of the CoS's "psychological therapy 'magic'". why
he doesn't expose this as limited and a corruption of traditional
language (cf. Frazer, even Levi if you like) is peculiar. you're
apparently agreeing here, but not explaining why Moody is being
taken seriously by Lewis, who calls Moody "seminal" (likely on
account of its actual sociology).
worse, "Satanism Today: an Encyclopedia of Religion, Folklore,
and Popular Culture", for all the hooplah and promise, is somewhat
disappointing. Lewis is BADLY-researched at points, misses entire
strata of pop-culture demonics, and behaves NONacademically. his
'"Magical Religion and Modern Witchcraft" was far more thorough
and substantive, whereas this latter work is more on the order
of Baskin (whom I like but from whom I don't expect academic
standards within his "Dictionary of Satanism" -- a great text!).
# is not very materialistic at all.
science tends to be materialistic in a physicalist sense,
but mistaken science is definitely sad. Crowley did that
with his Hallowed Sex Magick Seekrets (Homunculus theories),
and also attempted to propagate the notion that Phallos=Penis.

He was sexually fucked up. When first talking to the LaVeyans in charge in
1989, their mainline opinion of the whole of the OTO was "a bunch of
queers." SIC.

Post by SOD of the CoE
#>#># p 357 "Black Magic and Satanism are not new phenomena,
#>#># even in the West";
#>#> more of the legendizing. no details are provided.
#>
#># Dennis Wheatley and Aleister Crowley.
#>
#> Dennis Wheatley was a writer of fiction.
#
# People did not read it so, even if he claimed it so.
stay with the context here: academics. Wheatley is NOT an
academic source, nor is Crowley, though at least Crowley
wasn't (exactly) writing fiction stories, as was Wheatley.

I said, people regarded Wheatly, the former OSI agent or whatever, as
writing fact disguised as fiction.

Post by SOD of the CoE
ok, Crowley wrote some fiction, but much of his material
is poetic and some he dictated and his women followers
with literacy skills penned for him.
# He was also the equivalent of CiA operative in the UK!
did he write any nonfiction?

Reports? Sure, he had to have. Keep in mind, he was investigating fascist
activity 5th column in England and that was FILLED with occult orders that
recuited people - and resocialized them, too. That's the main brunt of his
book "The Satanist," btw.

Post by SOD of the CoE
# People believed it was based on solid facts....
sure. maybe fundies and the impressionable. are you talking
about any specific text, like "The Satanist" or "The Devil
Rides In" or something?

I'm not impressionable. "The Satanist." What do you call what I did - as a
GROUP effort, sort of indoctrinating people with religio-political ideas to
the point that they DID have their little revolution, changed the laws and
pretty much got their way? I didn't do it alone - it would not have been
possible to do something like that alone. What do you call that? NOT
occult activity? It was anti Christian to the hilt, too - simply because
Christianity condemned THEM as people. How did we go about "finding"
people to help do this? The EXACT same way Wheatley describes in his book.
I read his book MUCH later - in the late 1980's when I moved here. I was
surprised at how accurate some of it was. I said, take out the hollywood
type theatrics - and he hit the nail on the head. Of course he'd know how
such things work and are done.

if you were there, you might recall

Post by SOD of the CoE
the actual title of what you are saying they believed.

"The Satanist." In fact, the bottom line on the leftist activity here, some
of the more extreme recruitment methods (breaking morals, breaking
inhibitions, indoctrination) was considered Satanic. And it's done exactly
the way Wheatley said. Think about it. HOW ELSE would anyone go about
doing that kind of thing? You can really be naive, sometimes. OK - watch
the documentary Hamburg Cell. See how a completely secular Moslem with
nothing to gain, everything to lose, a secular family, all that - that went
to Catholic School all his life - got so religiously indoctrinated by a CELL
of people (yeah?) that he flew the 9/11 plane and killed himself and
thousands of other. This is a fact. That is EXACTLY what Wheatley was
talking about. To the letter! Anyone unable to see it is plain freaking
dumb. SAME THING. SAME METHODS! OK, the Moslems didn't talk Satan. They
talked Allah. Whoppee do!

Post by SOD of the CoE
#># It is also what AE Waite had to say in the last chapter of his UNEDITED
#># book. The edited version has the scathing last chapter ommitted!
"The
#># Book of Ceremonial Magic" is the unedited book. Keep in mind, "Solomon's"
#># book The goetia was a big seller back then, too. That's all about demons....
#>
#> most of Waite's grimoire material has pieces missing. to this extent Shah
#> did a better job of conveying the information. Waite was all hung up on
#> people getting the technology.
#
# Eh?
Idries Shah's "The Secret Lore of Magic". check it out sometime.
Shah tends not to be as wordy and intrude into that which he presents.
# The chapter in question ....
name? I've got a few copies of the text, but haven't looked too
closely at the chapter to which you're referring.

Book of Ceremonial Magic - pg 334 chapter: "Conclusion": eg "The class of
people to whom such considerations would appeal (refers to the whole of that
magic) were those obviously, and as I have otherwise indicated, who could
not obtain their satisfaction through the normal channels, the outcasts, the
incompetent, the ignorant, the lonely, the deformed, the hideous, the
impotent and those whom Nature and Grace alike denied." HE is talking about
Klippoth, babe. Oh, I agree with him. Shit, I'd ocr it except that I wrote
all over it and it will never come out right. I refuse to "work" on it. Go
find it. Citadel Press, Secaucus, NJ , coyright 1961 by University Books,
Inc.

Post by SOD of the CoE
# claims that people that would resort to calling up demons (real or not)
# to try to get what ordinary normal people go out and get very easily on
# their own without force,
that's the premise of the Goetia, yes.
# are losers of the worst sort, degenerate, sick and twisted, - because
# if they DID have power, political power, they'd surely use the police
# state to get what they want - instead of demons. That's a paraphrase....
sounds like something it might be akin to some of Waite's other text.
he used bigger words and was more cagey about his condemnations.

Not in the text I have - I just quoted from it. STRONG language. Imagine a
person who was born deformed reading that, knowing that he wishes he could
DO things to get what HE wants - reading that Nature itself had DENIED him,
like cast him our, spit on him. That's god damned strong. Not cagey or
covert at all. Stuff I've written stuff to that effect and it has driven a
few people off the cliff, Bobo. Literally. What's sad is that the person
born deformed might just wish he could be healed, or wish for some Jesus
miracle or something, just wishing for a normal life - not power over
anyone - then after reading that - PHEW. Those are penetrating words, Bobo.
MAGICAL words if you want to call it that - and that is probably why that
chapter got heh, LOST.

It's one thing to go around with "I am the Damned you fear blah blah" and
provoke the shit out of christians or whoever with blasphemous bullshit ---
and it's quite another thing to FEEL damned. We who are blessed? We know
it, Bobo. And right, we do not bother with casted out people - imo they
are that way for a reason. Yeah, that's pretty mean. IS IT? I didn't cast
them out.

Post by SOD of the CoE
# but Waite is very clear on this - and it's very strongly stated. The
# entire book is an expose of complete bullshit, btw. I have it.
# Uncensored.
key it in. it may already be online somewhere. search for key phrases.
do you think we should believe Waite for some reason about this?

See my quote - go key it in - I may have left out -- marks in the book and
put in commas instead since those marks ain't gonna show up in a post. Do I
think I should believe him? I do not "believe" him. I knew this long
before I ever heard the name Waite or read it. I know exactly what it is
when a person wants to TAKE what I am from me because they are lacking - or
try to FORCE me to do their will - oh boy do I know it. They can't. It's
not possible. Not even if they have a gun to my head. I still have a
choice. But we ain't talking weapons or material force at all here.

Post by SOD of the CoE
#>#># p 366 "In the Western tradition, the Devil clearly
#>#># stands midway between the completely animal (or
#>#># physical) and the completely human (or
#>#># spiritual). He has a mixture of animal and human
#>#># parts: he is hermaphroditic with a man's torso
#>#># but a woman's breasts, with human arms but animal
#>#># legs. He is the symbol of confusion between the
#>#># animal and the spiritual."
#>#>
#>#> why does this imagery surround resocialization?
#>#> not explained.
#>#
#># He also wrongly calls that the devil. It's not the devil.
#>
#> amusingly, it *is* the Devil tarot card (after Levi), plus it
#> does conform to most conceptions of the Devil in some ways
#> (theriomorph, for example).
#
# Slander of the Greek Pan androgyne. Pan is not the devil.
# The Devil is a SPIRIT in Christianity, not a person or beast at all.
depends on what level of Christianity. the most literate interpret
the Devil as a transphysical being, even a mere metaphor. the plebes
take it all the way to a monster in the underworld, purely physical.
it extends extravagantly into multicultural melange. consider the
form and character of Krampus from European St. Nick traditions
in the origins of 'Santa Claus', for example.

I have never met a Christian, no matter how illiterate or stupid, that
thought the Devil was a real being. A spirit, yes - and MAYBE at that. It
seem to me that the stupidest of the Christians that end up being satanists
are the only Christians that ever thought that. That's my experience.

Post by SOD of the CoE
#># Back then, a collection of COS authorized amulets included an
#># upside down cross.
#>
#> still does. Purging Talon's mark has one. I'm sure it's all over.
were you thinking that they ditched the upside-down cross thing?

Yeah, I thought they might have. I'm not exactly paying attention to what
they sell in the first place.

Post by SOD of the CoE
oh, btw, in videos HP Gilmore wears Christian-*like* get-ups, but
the bit at his throat is sometimes *red* instead of white. I can
imagine varying it all the way to purple (the shock of it! ;>).

Purple would be beautiful. I always saw him in white checker. Hmm, heh,
lol, I wonder if anyone would imagine they were witnessing a devils sabbath
dance if they saw all the people wearing all black formal clothing and
dancing. LOL. My take: who cares?

Post by SOD of the CoE
blessed beast!
boboroshi at-sign satanservice.org: Satanic Outreach Director
Church of Euthanasia: http://www.churchofeuthanasia.org/
TOKUS WEBLINKS: http://dmoz.org/Bookmarks/B/boboroshi/
Ninth Scholar's Library (Satanism Archive): http://www.satanservice.org/

Blazin' Tommy D.

2005-03-18 04:37:59 UTC

Post by SOD of the CoE
# ...[Ouija] board, Tarot - all of that was "black arts."

[clip]

Post by Tani Jantsang Â©
That whole schtick about "descending into your emotions" or "distancing self
from them" is a bunch of schizoid rubbish for people with a neurological
split. SOME folks know god damned well what they are feeling at the MOMENT
they feel it. That's normal - not some kind of "Adept Magical Stage."

It's

Post by Tani Jantsang Â©
NORMAL. Crowley was fucked up, he was sexually fucked up too - and baby
that's the main thing - if that's fucked up the rest of the person is gonna
be a waste, imo . No, not imo. I know it. Like a car with no engine - no
changing the tire (studying rityools) is gonna fix it. They should just
freaking give it up. Empty people perpetually searching to fill up their
holes. That's how I see them. It reminds me of Nietzsche, a mind sick with
syphillis, grappling with his own dualism - FINALLY he realizes that "self
overcoming" is without any effort at all. DUHHHHH. His BIG

enlightenment.

Post by Tani Jantsang Â©
Something a normal KID should know by living life. Self overcoming is not
exactly like learning how to lay tiles on a floor, you know. (That takes
effort, LMAO). These people, imo, have NO self - that is why they are so
damned obsessed with the self. They have sick twisted emotions that RULE
them - that is why they are obsessed with that, always grappling with
themselves. Sheesh. I told you, I avoid people like that because they are
a plague.

[clip]
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
BTD: (alt.magick) I disagree entirely. The rest is too much to read. What
was being presented in the article Siva linked to is the distinction between
the idea of self sacrifice and radical individualism.

Everyone is fucked up, to varying degrees, particularly in US of A where
such state is essentially unavoidable, intended, and is imposed upon you at
a very young age. This was even worse in Victorian times especially under a
history of monarchy as opposed to individual sovereignty. And if you look at
the history of magic under that light you'll see that essentially that's
what it's all about - self discovery, the freedom to pursue the power of the
individual while blocking out influences opposed to such ideas or practices.

Life is like a big archive/warehouse with large tables and stacks of
manuscripts upon them. These are the works and ideas of people throughout
time. They die and their work is left incomplete. You go around and find an
interesting work and continue it. That's what Crowley did with magic and
what Mathers attempted before him

All of it makes perfect sense to me. Some of it seems silly because of the
time others have spent working these things out in their mind so that we
don't have to go through the same process that they did and thus may
progress rather than make redundant sacrifices. A good example here is
Crowley's apparent obsession with the Revelations thing. That his self
sacrifice is his life blood co mingled with all others who have gone before
him, now in the chalice of Babalon, drunken goddess of ____ what exactly?
Society up to then; monarchy, repression f the individual? That he would
work the end of this by challenging doe things claimed by these repressors
to be horrible sins? All of it seems a bit complicated. I think my
explanation is more simple appearing in my most recent my space blog

Another aspect is the illusion to a pig because it eats human shit. You know
you do the thing with your fingers "the horns". It does look like a pig; but
if you make the sign and look at it frontward it also looks like a large
cunt between spread legs; like the middle finger looks like a large cock
between two legs. Does it make any difference? Of course. My explanation
shows a passive character. Babalon drinks these said sacrifices and from
this comes some sort of change. The end of the world. I could never
understand why anyone would want to end the world but I sure would like to
end the notion of a preferred position of the State over the individual and
essentially everything the KKK so called conservative movement stands and
exist for. So if fornicating with Babalon would effect that then where is
she. But the passive nature to which Babalon refers is what black is. The
darkness or nothingness from whence all things issue. That is the mystery.
The true occult. (see the Gnostic Mass)

So the thing that really strikes home for me was the admonition regarding
selling your soul for money, fame, &c as being the ultimate of lowly things.
This of course is related to the idea of self sacrifice - e.g., picking up
one of these manuscripts and continuing the work earnestly rather than
voting Republican and spending your time watching Flipper reruns on your new
wide screen home theater while local prisoners incarcerated for smoking pot
in a remote area detected by radar systems in Bush occupied Russia cut your
lawn. Sex orgies are less of a crime. So is shooting smack.

Lots of artists still use alcohol and narcotics to block "psychic attacks"
essentially to help block out modern social influences -e.g., service to the
private sector, your involuntary servitude to obey, consume and lead others
to do the same. In contrast such altered or sedated states are used to work
these things out, in your mind, how you are to deal with such circumstances
and demands while continuing your work and through this process you discover
who you really are rather than the pod person personality the ruling class
has prepared for you. This appears to be what this article Siva linked to is
about.

It's a similar contrast between Timothy Leary's utility theory of LSD
compared to the us by the Merry Pranksters.

I liked the article unfortunately Mr. Mojo doesn't talk to me anymore,
apparently Mrs. Mojo doesn't want him to discuss such things with me --
'fraid I might corrupt him:)

Tani Jantsang ©

2005-03-18 08:34:53 UTC

Post by SOD of the CoE
# ...[Ouija] board, Tarot - all of that was "black arts."

[clip]

Post by Tani Jantsang Â©
That whole schtick about "descending into your emotions" or "distancing

self

Post by Tani Jantsang Â©
from them" is a bunch of schizoid rubbish for people with a neurological
split. SOME folks know god damned well what they are feeling at the

MOMENT

Post by Tani Jantsang Â©
they feel it. That's normal - not some kind of "Adept Magical Stage."

It's

Post by Tani Jantsang Â©
NORMAL. Crowley was fucked up, he was sexually fucked up too - and baby
that's the main thing - if that's fucked up the rest of the person is

gonna

Post by Tani Jantsang Â©
be a waste, imo . No, not imo. I know it. Like a car with no engine - no
changing the tire (studying rityools) is gonna fix it. They should just
freaking give it up. Empty people perpetually searching to fill up their
holes. That's how I see them. It reminds me of Nietzsche, a mind sick

with

Post by Tani Jantsang Â©
syphillis, grappling with his own dualism - FINALLY he realizes that "self
overcoming" is without any effort at all. DUHHHHH. His BIG

enlightenment.

are

Post by Tani Jantsang Â©
a plague.

[clip]
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
BTD: (alt.magick) I disagree entirely.

If it's with what I said, whether or not it's related to what Bobo (that's
Siva) linked to - I could care less. What I said is true. I can't even
conceive of anyone NOT knowing what they feel at the moment they feel it.
But I know academically that people are like that - and I know WHY they are
like that. Not all people are like that. It wasn't too long, you should
have read it. You are intelligent. You have ideas outside most paradigms.

The rest is too much to read. What

Post by Blazin' Tommy D.
was being presented in the article Siva linked to is the distinction between
the idea of self sacrifice and radical individualism.

Humans are, by nature, not individualistic animals. Isn't that obvious? We
are not sharks or like sharks. We can't even learn to speak language in
isolation from babyhood on. In fact, human babies are extremely dependent
on someone to care for them - and without the huggy huggy lovey lovey they
grow up twisted and warped. Neurological fact. The most herdlike yesmen
are always those that claim to be The Big Individual. They can't freaking
stand disagreement, either.

Self sacrifice comes in many forms. It could be spontaneous (like me saving
a drowning person's life - without thinking first that he's GOING to try to
drown me since he's scared into a total panic and filled with adrenalin) -
to purposeful self sacrifice (something I do not tend to do, ever). One is
instinctive. The other is something else - and I seriously question the
motives and real agenda of those that DO the second type. They want
something. No matter what - they want SOMEthing.

Post by Blazin' Tommy D.
Everyone is fucked up, to varying degrees, particularly in US of A where
such state is essentially unavoidable, intended, and is imposed upon you at
a very young age. This was even worse in Victorian times especially under a
history of monarchy as opposed to individual sovereignty.

Disagree. And what I said can be proven empirically with tests.

And if you look at

Post by Blazin' Tommy D.
the history of magic under that light you'll see that essentially that's
what it's all about - self discovery, the freedom to pursue the power of the
individual while blocking out influences opposed to such ideas or practices.

I don't care about the history of western magic or people who seek and seek
and never seem to find anything - or find something very small and obvious
and think it's nirvana or something. If you read more of these convos, you
might know that. What power of the individual - I do what I want, I don't
do what I don't want to do. For me, life really IS a wonder to be lived.
Sure, there are mundane chores - but so what? I mean, I REALLY don't care
about people that feel repressed, or oppressed and usualy I see they do it
to themselves since no one ELSE is doing it. I don't bother with people
like that. They are not in my sphere (loka)!

Post by Blazin' Tommy D.
Life is like a big archive/warehouse with large tables and stacks of
manuscripts upon them. These are the works and ideas of people throughout
time. They die and their work is left incomplete. You go around and find an
interesting work and continue it. That's what Crowley did with magic and
what Mathers attempted before him

And I should care about this why? It's not relevent to ME, does not pertain
to ME. One thing I'll say I kinda don't like - people who have grown from a
very different garden trying to horn in on the one I grew from - Eastern
stuff like Lamaism (Tatar Shamanism). Go away, we say. Get lost. No
matter what, they usually can't understand what we are saying - they come
with the desire to TAKE - and we will not give it to them. Let them starve.
Let them get some freaking "acadmic" knowledge (or so they think) and they
are telling US what our own cultural traditions are about. Typical. They
are clueless, and they remain so.

Post by Blazin' Tommy D.
All of it makes perfect sense to me. Some of it seems silly because of the
time others have spent working these things out in their mind so that we
don't have to go through the same process that they did and thus may
progress rather than make redundant sacrifices.

Look, Wayne wrote "Convalescence from Christianity" (we sell it) and well,
it's really too bad some people grow up with that. But it really is NOT my
problem, Tommy - and I really do NOT want to hear about it. I'd rather hear
about super massive black holes and the relation to the galaxy, or nail
polish! The DDocs are out there for JUST that kind of person. That's
enough. It's written down. Let them read it, get it. But don't come to me
about it unless they are willing to PAY for my time. And then I might
refuse. I'd rather have fun than hear about someone's angst. The DDocs
tend to do that (free people, if there is any self left in there to be
freed) FAST. Very fast.

A good example here is

Post by Blazin' Tommy D.
Crowley's apparent obsession with the Revelations thing. That his self
sacrifice is his life blood co mingled with all others who have gone before
him, now in the chalice of Babalon, drunken goddess of ____ what exactly?
Society up to then; monarchy, repression f the individual? That he would
work the end of this by challenging doe things claimed by these repressors
to be horrible sins? All of it seems a bit complicated. I think my
explanation is more simple appearing in my most recent my space blog
Another aspect is the illusion to a pig because it eats human shit. You know
you do the thing with your fingers "the horns". It does look like a pig; but
if you make the sign and look at it frontward it also looks like a large
cunt between spread legs; like the middle finger looks like a large cock
between two legs.

I don't tend to see sex organs where they ain't. I see hands where hands
are. The sign you mention means "fascination" in my culture - and GOOD
LUCK.

But the passive nature to which Babalon refers is what black is. The

Post by Blazin' Tommy D.
darkness or nothingness from whence all things issue. That is the mystery.
The true occult. (see the Gnostic Mass)

Well, the whole fact/truth of the Darkness as One and all things coming from
it was something I grew up with - try to understand that. It's not even so
much taught - I grew up with it, know it, it's everywhere. I see that
Divine-ness in every living thing - it's not hard to see at all. So - it's
kinda like someone "discovering" that WOW, you mean that's a TABLE - and
yeah duh, it's a table, you've been eating on it all your life. You really
should have read the post to Bobo/Siva. I said quite a few things about
that. But, you know, starving people jump and down if they finally get a
decent meal. People who aren't hungry and who never were hungry sit and
relax and enjoy the regular meal. That is an ANALOGY. Not literal.

Post by Blazin' Tommy D.
So the thing that really strikes home for me was the admonition regarding
selling your soul for money, fame, &c as being the ultimate of lowly things.

Now this doesn't compute. You ARE a soul. The only way you can sell "it"
is to sell YOU. It's must more western confused bullshit spoken by people
split from their own selves, or lacking a self.

Post by Blazin' Tommy D.
This of course is related to the idea of self sacrifice - e.g., picking up
one of these manuscripts and continuing the work earnestly rather than

No, read the Dark Doctrine monographs. I brush that other stuff aside as
groping, too non-direct. Someone wants to know this stuff? Do they really?
HERE, then. And it's direct as h hell, like an arrow piercing the
heart/mind.

Post by Blazin' Tommy D.
Lots of artists still use alcohol and narcotics to block "psychic attacks"
essentially to help block out modern social influences -e.g., service to the
private sector, your involuntary servitude to obey, consume and lead others
to do the same.

That's too bad if they do those things and especially worse if they don't
know they do them. Do they want to? That's another question. These things
are very VERY easy to ignore, block out. No drugs needed. No effort
needed.

In contrast such altered or sedated states are used to work

Post by Blazin' Tommy D.
these things out, in your mind,

You mean, in their mind.

how you are to deal with such circumstances

Post by Blazin' Tommy D.
and demands while continuing your work and through this process you discover
who you really are rather than the pod person personality the ruling class
has prepared for you.

Well, no one ever prepared anything for me one way or the other. A person
that has to discover who they are - I feel sorry for that person. But not
sorry enough to hang out with people like that or listen to it.

This appears to be what this article Siva linked to is

Post by Blazin' Tommy D.
about.

I did not read it.

SOD of the CoE

2005-04-03 02:24:21 UTC

"Tani Jantsang ©" <***@SPAMpost.com>:
# "SOD of the CoE" <***@boboroshi>:
# > "Tani Jantsang ©" <***@SPAMpost.com>:

apparently about the late 60s:
# > # ...[Ouija] board, Tarot - all of that was "black arts."

# even gypsies (I used to see them in NJ) were always considered
# necromancers of some type, usually spiritual, with demonic knowledge and
# such - and so were WE considered that, Bobo. Do you think we appreciated
# that? Uh, NO.

being considered things by the inexpert does indeed happen, thanks.

# > # ...Presenting the: Ouija Bowl. Take can of AUTHENTIC, GENUINE,
# > # Campbells Alphabet soup. Put soup in Ouija Bowl. Magically,
# > # the letters spell out prophecy....
# >
# > lovely. making divination tools is fun. :) I made I Chunk once:
# > take three serpentine stones with orientations, throw them on
# > the ground and generate hexagrams. that's one of the great
# > things about divination is its variability and innovative aspect.

# Gee, you did NOT think that was hilariously funny?

no, I'd thought of it before many times, and some of my friends
did too. there's no reason why it couldn't be done as you say.
perhaps if you were less of a disbeliever you'd start to look
at the real problems of these methods. what is the proportion
of letter-production in such soups? the same analysis can be
brought to the issue of using games like Scrabble to achieve
similar, amusing results.

# torment the shit out him with WORDS, only words! Surely, it wouldn't work
# if the guy didn't speak and understand English, right? But he does
# understand it. Eventually, that person they're picking on, his grades get
# worse, his posture changes. And so forth. That's NOT magic?

no, not by rationally-supportable standards of assessment. anything
you don't understand will be "magic" by Clarkean standards, of
course, but that's a characteristic, rather than formal standard.

# ...What the fuck does anyone THINK it is?

your issue is word-usage and appearance, rather than science.
sociology is different than occultism, even though at times
the former will used to explain the activities and results
of the latter. you are confusing topical areas for purposes
of folding them together and appearing knowledgeable.

# ...He said that eventually he began to identify with
# the names they called him, as if he REALLY WAS that?

no, not by rationally-supportable standards of assessment. anything
you don't understand will be "magic" by Clarkean standards, of
course, but that's a characteristic, rather than formal standard.

# His entire perception of his own **BEING** changed, Bobo.
# That's not magic? ....

no, not by rationally-supportable standards of assessment. anything
you don't understand will be "magic" by Clarkean standards, of
course, but that's a characteristic, rather than formal standard.
instead, it is manipulation and psychology, not magic.

# they will go to their death beds in old age REMEMBERING that day vividly.
# How do they know? Instinct? Intuition?

memory.

# > #># To do otherwise would be patronizing, authoritarian and rigidly
# > #># pompous.
# >
# > naw, now you're talking about the usual occultist mishmash speak.
# > attempting to derive sustainable scientific notions about how and
# > why magic and divination works is the true activity of adepts
# > interested in fomenting the intrusion of the occult into every
# > aspect of world culture.

# True Adepts never tried to do that in the past.

if they didn't, then they shouldn't represent themselves as
having anything to do with science. since I was strongly
educated by scientific theories and methods (to college-
level physics and analytic geometry), I bring this level
of scrutiny to these topical areas. few others are really
capable of doing this in combination with philosophical
reflection and suspension of their materialistic biases.
typically the option is something like you present, a
kind of Clarkean hand-waving which does nothing to give
explanation to the experiences which are occult or to
provide a stand-alone descriptor-set for the whole of
accepted occult disciplines in PRAXIS.

adepts of occultism should be able to rise above our culture,
the doctrines popular in the methods presented, and generally
reflect well and deeply upon what is being done by occultists,
rather than engage in mishmash speak and avoid empiricism to
fold things together into a preferred lexicon.

# Esoteric schools were not public schools.

the language is sometimes changed to protect the innocent.
while you are generally correct, they are often considered
to be appendant to such public schools, and sometimes to
other, "more rudimentary esoteric schools" (e.g. Freemasonic).

# Bobo . . . . . I know what "magic of the darkness is."
# Leave it at that.

your knowledge appears artificial to me, and not very useful
except for the promotion of your persona.

# > as we've discussed in alt.magick several times (it is a FAQ
# > therein) such rudimentary volitional exercise is preliminary
# > but requires a symbolic matrix to effect the actual magic.
# > until then it is merely wishing or engineering (if applied).

# Well, as Harreee said - Randi is always there to help science
# prove magic. Take the challenge.

non-sequitur. your mention was about something rudimentary
like brushing one's teeth or taking out the garbage. calling
this "magic" is a kind of screen that tends to obscure more
than it ever clarifies. 'proof' is only possible once the
criteria for demonstration are agreed. Randi's challenge is
as regards psychicism and supernatural effects. I don't
believe in either of those and so couldn't take his
challenge in any rational way.

# > #> he even eschewed the term 'Satanist', while invoking
# > #> Satan and considering his Holy Guardian Angel to *be*
# > #> 'Satan by any other name'.
# > #
# > # ..."that Satan" is tired....
# >
# > it's getting a thorough work-out through time, plus it keeps
# > changing in appearance and character. Satanists have glorified
# > it to a degree, revising toward beneficence or admirability.
#
# It's tired. It's even tired in the world we live in today.
# Is Osamma evil or not?

"evil" is a demonizing word that truly is best used to mean
"that which I oppose".

# Are we the Great Satan or not? ....

"the Great Satan" is a bogey I've sufficiently described.

# ...if her Satan is your Satan....

most preachers imagine something more than Satan really is.
it is a projection overtop of that which they don't control.

# > # ...I don't regard ANY of that as magic or magick.
# >
# > right, you're of the Clarkean school, which effectively
# > disputes magic's existence except as an ephemeral illusion
# > transitioning toward science.
#
# Clarkian, interesting....

Arthur C. Clarke. his quote on the idea of magic being an
appearance of sufficiently advanced technology is well-known,
yes. that doesn't make it a helpful taxonomical descriptor.

# ... did the super primitive aborigines that invented an
# aerodynamically perfect boomerang know aerodynamics or
# any of Newton's laws?

non-sequitur. that they called it "magic" doesn't demonstrate
that they know to what to apply the term properly.

# No, but they invented the thing and know how to use it
# quite well. HOW? HOW did they do it? ...

unimportant in an examination of what magic generally does
include. confusion of terms is bound to occur, but that does
not justify the continued confusion of terminology. suggest
something better that accounts for most instances of magic
and winnows out that which differs from it, rather than a
term which stands in for some kind of appearance character.

# I'm talking about
# legit stuff now, not delusional ravings of schizos....

you may be, but not that which attempts to achieve a desired
end using symbolic means. psychicism and unseen engineering
or chemistry are different, categorically, from magic, even
if the latter term is used to describe the former.

# find out, the more it AGREES with our cosmology - all gotten by us via
# shamanic trance means. Go figure. You call what we do to know this magic.

false, I call magic the use and manipulation of symbols to effect
intentional change at a distance or remove from the perceived cause.

in Euro-based Hermetic and Neopagan magic, generally and in alt.magick:
# > # Is any of it black? NO. Is it evil? Not in this society.
# >
# > in this context of occultism, money makes it "black"
#
# Hmm, intersting. So, doing magic for gain is black? Heh. News to me.

no, selling magical services, spells, that kind of thing. it
is said to tarnish, corrupt, or generally sully the mystical
operations done by these High Magicians (which are said to
*be* what magic is, esp. moral types).

# > #>#> note: no real explanation as to religious worship or practice,
# > #>#> only "Black Magic and Satanism", whatever this means (never
# > #>#> truly specified). e.g.:
# > #>#>
# > #>#># "the Black Arts of witchcraft and magic";
# > #>#># "the ancient art of Black Magic";
# > #>#>
# > #>#> here the researcher appears to give the impression that the
# > #>#> Church of Satan is primarily involved with Black Magic or
# > #>#> "the Black Arts", which is explained as including both
# > #>#> ordinary talismanic magic as well as resocialization
# > #>#> in order to work past the individual's nerdiness.
# > #>#
# > #># At first it was.
# >
# > if you mean "it was conceived as such by these Satanists" then I'm
# > not so sure. if you mean "it was conceived as such by Christians
#
# WHO do you think these Satanists were? Buddhists? Hindus? ....

Satanists. your assertion that they were Christians isn't
demonstrated by any rational standard, just your contention.
when I asked you how you assess who is a Christian you did
not give a rational standard to support yourself.

# ...the [Ouija] board, OK? What's moving that planchette?
# YOU are moving the planchette....

usually it isn't conscious as described, but agreed.

# > #>#># p 357 "Black Magic and Satanism are not new phenomena,
# > #>#># even in the West";
# >
# > #>#> more of the legendizing. no details are provided.
# > #>
# > #># Dennis Wheatley and Aleister Crowley.
# > #>
# > #> Dennis Wheatley was a writer of fiction.
# > #
# > # People did not read it so, even if he claimed it so.
# >
# > stay with the context here: academics. Wheatley is NOT an
# > academic source, nor is Crowley, though at least Crowley
# > wasn't (exactly) writing fiction stories, as was Wheatley.
#
# I said, people regarded Wheatly, the former OSI agent or
# whatever, as writing fact disguised as fiction.

academics have not generally done so to my knowledge.

# > ok, Crowley wrote some fiction, but much of his material
# > is poetic and some he dictated and his women followers
# > with literacy skills penned for him.
# >
# > # He was also the equivalent of CiA operative in the UK!
# >
# > did he write any nonfiction?

# Reports? Sure, he had to have....

on Satanism? please direct us to some of them.

# ...What do you call what I did - as a GROUP effort, sort of
# indoctrinating people with religio-political ideas to the
# point that they DID have their little revolution, changed the
# laws and pretty much got their way?

duping the ignorant through persuasive rhetoric, the same you
are attempting to do with me here. only I don't buy it and ask
for more substantive data, less and less often (primarily on
account you don't really appear able to provide any,
just more bluster behind the bluster).

# ...What do you call that? NOT occult activity? ....

you're hitting closer to the mark here. the term "occult"
refers in *theory* to items extending outside and beyond
practical pursuits of magic and divination. this kind of
sociopolitical indoctrination and cult-mongering is part
of a great many occult social activities (religious in
their overarching character, sociopolitical in result).

this is in part why I'm placing an emphasis on practical
activities which are separably occult or arcane, rather
than those which sneak under the radar of the ignorant
and confuse and obscure the real issues. focussing on
giving examples of and categorizing magic and
divination helps to avert all these facades
and religiopolitical maneuvers.

# ...the documentary Hamburg Cell. See how a completely
# secular Moslem with nothing to gain, everything to lose,
# a secular family, all that - that went to Catholic School
# all his life - got so religiously indoctrinated by a CELL
# of people (yeah?) that he flew the 9/11 plane and killed
# himself and thousands of other.....

sociopolitics, not magic or divination per se.

# > #># It is also what AE Waite had to say in the last chapter of his UNEDITED
# > #># book. The edited version has the scathing last chapter ommitted! "The
# > #># Book of Ceremonial Magic" is the unedited book. Keep in mind, "Solomon's"
# > #># book The goetia was a big seller back then, too. That's all about demons....
# > #>
# > #> most of Waite's grimoire material has pieces missing. to this extent Shah
# > #> did a better job of conveying the information. Waite was all hung up on
# > #> people getting the technology.

# > Idries Shah's "The Secret Lore of Magic". check it out sometime.
# > Shah tends not to be as wordy and intrude into that which he presents.
# >
# > # The chapter in question ....
# >
# > name? I've got a few copies of the text, but haven't looked too
# > closely at the chapter to which you're referring.
#
# Book of Ceremonial Magic - pg 334 chapter: "Conclusion": eg "The class of
# people to whom such considerations would appeal (refers to the whole of that
# magic) were those obviously, and as I have otherwise indicated, who could
# not obtain their satisfaction through the normal channels, the outcasts, the
# incompetent, the ignorant, the lonely, the deformed, the hideous, the
# impotent and those whom Nature and Grace alike denied." ...I agree with him.
# Citadel Press, Secaucus, NJ , coyright 1961 by University Books, Inc.

thanks.

# ...penetrating words.... MAGICAL words if you want to call it that....

not with any supportable meaning long-term, no. such words would be
restricted to those with symbolic elements conducive to the result
intended or desired in order to qualify in specific (power-words).

# > do you think we should believe Waite for some reason about this?
#
# ...Do I think I should believe him? I do not "believe" him. I knew
# this....

you agree with him, thanks. you don't explain why anyone else should.

blessed beast!

boboroshi at-sign satanservice.org: Satanic Outreach Director
Church of Euthanasia: http://www.churchofeuthanasia.org/
TOKUS WEBLINKS: http://dmoz.org/Bookmarks/B/boboroshi/
Ninth Scholar's Library (Satanism Archive): http://www.satanservice.org/

Tani Jantsang ©

2005-04-03 07:35:36 UTC

Post by SOD of the CoE
# Esoteric schools were not public schools.
the language is sometimes changed to protect the innocent.
while you are generally correct, they are often considered
to be appendant to such public schools, and sometimes to
other, "more rudimentary esoteric schools" (e.g. Freemasonic).

Uh, no. Not what I mean at all.

Post by SOD of the CoE
# Bobo . . . . . I know what "magic of the darkness is."
# Leave it at that.
your knowledge appears artificial to me, and not very useful
except for the promotion of your persona.

You don't have any idea about me in that way at all. None. So it's not
even a matter of appearance. I do NOT talk magic with people - or very very
very rarely do. And I won't. As I said, leave it at that - I DO know magic
of the dark - and I mean the real dark, not some ambiance bs. Ask me about
it, and I'll go Clarkian on you. I told you - leave it at that.

Post by SOD of the CoE
# WHO do you think these Satanists were? Buddhists? Hindus? ....
Satanists. your assertion that they were Christians isn't
demonstrated by any rational standard, just your contention.
when I asked you how you assess who is a Christian you did
not give a rational standard to support yourself.

Not rational to you, perhaps - but they reek of it, it's in everything they
do, how they speak, how they move, how they walk, etc. I used to think of
them as a breed.

Post by SOD of the CoE
# ...the [Ouija] board, OK? What's moving that planchette?
# YOU are moving the planchette....
usually it isn't conscious as described, but agreed.

Not all people have split up minds like that.

Post by SOD of the CoE
# > #> Dennis Wheatley was a writer of fiction.
# > #
# > # People did not read it so, even if he claimed it so.
# >
# > stay with the context here: academics. Wheatley is NOT an
# > academic source, nor is Crowley, though at least Crowley
# > wasn't (exactly) writing fiction stories, as was Wheatley.

Screw adacemics. He wrote it AS fiction. He was OSI or whatever, OSS? Do
you think the FBI didn't know that stuff he knew? Sure they did. Crowley
wrote the same thing as what's in DDocs as some very adept thelemites can
clearly see. He just made it murky.

Post by SOD of the CoE
#
# I said, people regarded Wheatly, the former OSI agent or
# whatever, as writing fact disguised as fiction.
academics have not generally done so to my knowledge.

Screw adacemics. He wrote it AS fiction. He was OSI or whatever, OSS? Do
you think the FBI didn't know that stuff he knew? Sure they did.

Post by SOD of the CoE
# > ok, Crowley wrote some fiction, but much of his material
# > is poetic and some he dictated and his women followers
# > with literacy skills penned for him.
# >
# > # He was also the equivalent of CiA operative in the UK!
# >
# > did he write any nonfiction?
# Reports? Sure, he had to have....
on Satanism? please direct us to some of them.

He PUT that in his novel as fictionalized - check the Brit Secret Services
or whatever he worked for. Gurdieff also - people that know him inside out
say it's very much like DDocs too. Interesting.

Post by SOD of the CoE
# ...What do you call what I did - as a GROUP effort, sort of
# indoctrinating people with religio-political ideas to the
# point that they DID have their little revolution, changed the
# laws and pretty much got their way?
duping the ignorant through persuasive rhetoric,

Oh, that is not what I did. There was very little talking going on. Lots
of eh - what I won't talk about going on. LOTS of it. And I saw HUGE
results = HUGE. No use talking now - it's after the fact. No duping
involved. How fucking dare you - I do not DUPE anyone.

What I did was not that at all, and there is no way I'll talk about it -
especially to YOU - a stranger. No use - it's after the fact anyway by now.
It really doesn't matter what you think or see or think you see.

THIS below, is what I'd call LBM.

Post by SOD of the CoE
# ...the documentary Hamburg Cell. See how a completely
# secular Moslem with nothing to gain, everything to lose,
# a secular family, all that - that went to Catholic School
# all his life - got so religiously indoctrinated by a CELL
# of people (yeah?) that he flew the 9/11 plane and killed
# himself and thousands of other.....
sociopolitics, not magic or divination per se.

Let me give you a hypothetical Bobo, totally hypothetical. IF Joe told you
that Joe was gonna DO "a, b, c, d, e" and the affect of it would end up
being SO big that the world would change due to it (and MAYBE not for the
better), but Joe would do it in order to achieve one thing. And the you SEE
it happen - and it's STILL happening and yes, it achieves the one thing Joe
set out to achieve - but otherwise causes what one might call hell on earth
in a lot of other places and there is NO turning it back. YOU would be the
first to call it a coincindence. You'd HAVE to. You would not want to know
that people that can DO such things exist.

Post by SOD of the CoE
you agree with him, thanks. you don't explain why anyone else should.

I'll tell you a secret: I don't care what "anyone else" believes. Imo,
there are those that KNOW because it's written on their essence - and there
are those that can never know.

Tani Jantsang ©

2005-03-19 10:10:51 UTC

Bobo - regarding views of what the Devil is. I don't remember where we
spoke of this - but this would be of interest go you, it definitely ties
into views of the 60s and such.

The root anti-subversive impulse was fed by the Menace. Its power
strengthened with the passage of time, by the late twenties its influence
had become more pervasive and folkish. Bolshevism came to be identified over
wide areas of the country by God-fearing Americans as the Antichrist come to
do eschatological battle with the children of light. A slightly secularized
version, widely-shared in rural and small-town America, postulated a
doomsday conflict between decent upright folk and radicalism--alien,
satanic, immorality incarnate.102
http://www.publiceye.org/apocalyptic/Dances_with_Devils_1-01.html
--
Now, understand that people who had jobs like the one Wheatley had, did
indeed investigate all of this kind of thing.

Blazing Tommy might be interested in this too - since it's clear that HIS
view of "the evil" is heh, conservatism?

Blazin' Tommy D.

2005-03-20 05:24:24 UTC

Bobo - regarding views of what the Devil is. I don't remember where we
spoke of this - but this would be of interest go you, it definitely ties
into views of the 60s and such.
The root anti-subversive impulse was fed by the Menace. Its power
strengthened with the passage of time, by the late twenties its influence
had become more pervasive and folkish. Bolshevism came to be identified over
wide areas of the country by God-fearing Americans as the Antichrist come to
do eschatological battle with the children of light. A slightly secularized
version, widely-shared in rural and small-town America, postulated a
doomsday conflict between decent upright folk and radicalism--alien,
satanic, immorality incarnate.102
http://www.publiceye.org/apocalyptic/Dances_with_Devils_1-01.html
--
Now, understand that people who had jobs like the one Wheatley had, did
indeed investigate all of this kind of thing.
Blazing Tommy might be interested in this too - since it's clear that HIS
view of "the evil" is heh, conservatism?

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
BTD: (alt.magick) In relative terms, yes. Personally I don't believe in
evil. There's normal and fucked up.

THE BLANK SLATE. For example, you were suggesting in your last response to
me (this thread) that individuality is a figment of the imagination because
children are taught how to do everything by their parents. This is a fallacy
of logic - viz, your premise does not logically lead to your conclusion.

THE POD PERSON. Most cultures have a point at which the person (perhaps
Patriarchically biased) becomes the man/adult, like when Adam and Eve leave
the garden. The reason this is lost on most Americans is because it is
forestalled by State intervention for as long as possible in order to
control people so that this 'leaving the garden' doesn't actually occur
until we're in our 40s or 50s (Conserving the status quo you see) and for
some never happens at all. Consequently people do in fact live other peoples
lives, many live their parents lives rather than their own. You see people
that take on the characteristics of their parents. A sort of obsequious
stigmata.

THE TRUE SELF. But your analogy does serve to establish my point regarding a
blank slate, which our brain is. Everything is learned yet the manner in
which this is done and how it's put together constitutes what the individual
is or who the individual is. So you have this synthesized bifurcation. Your
true self that begins to emerge when you are young and enjoying the things
you are learning hopefully from a loving parent is suddenly shocked into
catatonia by the State. It's as if Richard M. Nixon personally comes to your
Indianapolis or Ohio upper middle class community front door, like the stork
comes to the chimney and says 'Madam hand over your child' our Masters
require consumers, soldiers, people to work in the mines, whatever, and they
must be properly trained by the State to serve our private sector Masters.

THE PREFERRED POSITION OF THE STATE OVER THE INDIVIDUAL. There isn't any
real difference here than what Hitler did, Lenin, Stalin &c because
essentially there is no difference between right wing conservatism and
communism because both place the State in a preferred position over the
individual. D. W. Griffith's "Intolerance" is apropos in this regard

"When canons and prison bars wrought in the fires of intolerance ..."

The U.S. National Security State which sought to abolish our Society and
Constitution in 1947 is supposed to be a moderate version of Nazi fascism
and Communism (Republicans are the Nazis and the Democratics are the
Communists) but it isn't really, it's only a more evolved version - viz., a
"kinder and gentler fascism" coined by the late great I. F. Stone and there
are no longer any Communists they like Mussolini became fascists -- they're
going to use fascism to "keep hope alive" -e.g., oh you were so close to the
million men required but were one short otherwise we would have had
universal health care.

SATAN, LUCIFER, THE DEVIL. In my view which is essentially the same as
Crowley's Satan, Lucifer &c (split cunt hairs if you like over appellation
"Shaitan") is not an evil thing but represents the rebellious spirit -i.e.,
the establishment of the individual OVER the State, which in fact was the
purpose of our revolution against monarchy. You see, we are here in the US
of A, Crowley was in Britain under monarchy, where people could technically
still be killed by the State for cock sucking, ass fucking, &c, &c You
should also study the contrasting legal developments here and there circa
1904 thence onward into the US of A "return to normalcy" where Harding was
initiated into the KKK on the Capitol Steps. Previous to that time the
Courts were markedly and dramatically moving towards the thorough
vindication of the individual over the State.

The Satan, Lucifer, &c I've always identified with since I first started
reading "Paradise Lost" when I was 12 years old (also the year I ran away
from home and a very Conservative upbringing) was Milton's which is the same
as Crowley's. So any sort of criticism of this relationship with Crowley or
me is essential otherwise you miss the point, which you clearly have.

CIRCUMSTANCES OF BIRTH. If you're born rich then such circumstance is not a
fair object of review it's what you do with it that accounts: but the key to
this is who's to Judge or by what standard is such a person to be judged.
For me the answer is simple. The rule of law under individual sovereignty
and limited government. But in the U.S. most of us are born into lower class
circumstances and try to claim middle class status. Middle class today is at
least $150K per annum so the States make up the difference in perquisites
for their Judges.

I have found that a lot of the people that get into occult studies &c did
not actually have a POD prepared for them. Ironically, these are held in the
general social consensus as the unfortunate ones. So to that degree you
might have a point, they have no synthesized ego -viz., pod personality &c
to liberate themselves from, In fact they are so buried in the despair of
poverty and abuse that they have no time to discover themselves and having
no POD personality they have no means to secure or acquire protection from
the fascisti unless they sell drugs or collect money by some similar means -
e.g., rock 'n' Roll, pro sports whence they must drink from Nixon's bed pan
anyway.

So yes whether it be from unanswered prayers or want of vengeance they come
looking for an all powerful super hero DEVIL that will give them magical
powers to kick the shit out of the boys that roughed them up and fucked over
just so they could ride around in a car for a few hours trying to forget
that their father just fucked them because his wife is ugly or simply not
interested or hollered at them or kicked the shit out of them because they
can't do the same to their boss at work The scenarios are endless, made for
TV dramas twists them around pretty well.

THE ACTUAL WAR. Is between the State and the individual. The Left wing state
(here Democratics) wants people to develop from PODS (allusion to "The
Invasion of the Body Snatchers") and the right wing already has enough of
them so they try to think up ways they can profitably kill the
remainders -e.g., send them to prison factories, make them clean toilets,
flip hamburgers and eventually compromise and make them die of cancer as a
subsidy to middle class doctors and hospital administrators. Hence, managed
disease and managed crime which is apparently more profitable and economical
than eradication.

So the big scheme for the Monolith is to get everything to go along with
their plan and have essentially agreed on POD breeding. Perhaps Scalia will
tell us we had "constructive notice" from the motion picture, failed to
object and therefore unanimously approved.

ANNIHILATION. is brought about by the individual coming up with alternatives
by utterly blocking out all influences from the aforesaid system. So the
trick is in knowing what to keep and what to destroy. Like you don't want to
throw away natural law, natural rights, individual sovereignty &c. which is
what the State spends trillion of dollars convincing you that you should do.

Do you see my point?

So your comment on delving into your emotions? Do you think it's impossible
for the poverty stricken and abused person to do so while remaining in such
situation and/or not the typical POD person? All that has to be done is that
the real self has to be reached. Timothy Leary proved it Nationally with
LSD.

Any Satanic group that does something else is merely a front for the State
and the Monolith

Your comment above is obsolete and I dare say baby shit in comparison to
what I'm talking about here and now. The real Satanic Hero in our time was
Timothy Leary. Nobody has the balls to do this kind of stuff nowadays -e.g.,
all the Mcs are kissing Bono's ass and he'll probably have them all to vote
for John McCain:)

Tani Jantsang ©

2005-03-22 19:59:48 UTC

over

wide areas of the country by God-fearing Americans as the Antichrist come

do eschatological battle with the children of light. A slightly

secularized

version, widely-shared in rural and small-town America, postulated a
doomsday conflict between decent upright folk and radicalism--alien,
satanic, immorality incarnate.102
http://www.publiceye.org/apocalyptic/Dances_with_Devils_1-01.html
--
Now, understand that people who had jobs like the one Wheatley had, did
indeed investigate all of this kind of thing.
Blazing Tommy might be interested in this too - since it's clear that HIS
view of "the evil" is heh, conservatism?

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
BTD: (alt.magick) In relative terms, yes. Personally I don't believe in
evil. There's normal and fucked up.

Yes, but my definition of normal might not be the same as yours. My
definition of fucked up might not be the same as yours. You need to grasp
that idea. :) I arose at my definitions on my own, Tommy. I can guarantee
that most of my conclusions did NOT come from my parents who didn't have a
clue one way or the other about some normal/fucked up things I know of in
the society I live in.

Post by Tani Jantsang Â©
THE BLANK SLATE. For example, you were suggesting in your last response to
me (this thread) that individuality is a figment of the imagination because
children are taught how to do everything by their parents.

Just a second. I never said a word or suggested a thing about blank
slates - and I know for a fact humans are not born blank slates - a lot of
what they are and are to become IS genetic. You are taking to extremes what
I said. I base what I have to say on neurophysiology, not psychobabble
theories. Humans ARE animals - bottom line. On the other hand, they are
taught to do things by their parents - that's a fact - so are Orcas,
dolphins, other primates - and by their peers and by TV and such as they
grow. You speak English because your parents spoke it. You were not born
speaking English. But you were born with the capacity to speak language.
Even if you are deaf and dumb, language of a type is still in you. (sign or
find some way to express - but consider dogs and cats can also do that).
But after a certain stage of neurological development, humans are NOT able
to make sentences, even if they learn to speak verbs and nouns. So, they
have to learn "a language" from somewhere.

This is a fallacy

Post by Tani Jantsang Â©
of logic - viz, your premise does not logically lead to your conclusion.

You imagined my conclusion. I said nothing about blank slates.

Post by Tani Jantsang Â©
THE POD PERSON. Most cultures have a point at which the person (perhaps
Patriarchically biased) becomes the man/adult, like when Adam and Eve leave
the garden. The reason this is lost on most Americans is because it is
forestalled by State intervention for as long as possible in order to
control people so that this 'leaving the garden' doesn't actually occur
until we're in our 40s or 50s

Not in my lifetime. Kids even 9 years old worked, not at legal jobs, but
they did work, and they had their own thoughts about things.

(Conserving the status quo you see) and for

Post by Tani Jantsang Â©
some never happens at all. Consequently people do in fact live other peoples
lives, many live their parents lives rather than their own.

I know of that phenomena from watching movies about that on TV. Otherwise,
I don't closely know anyone that has ever done that. I have to wonder who
you know? Obviously, not the same types people I know.

You see people

Post by Tani Jantsang Â©
that take on the characteristics of their parents. A sort of obsequious
stigmata.

Ditto above - we know different types of people. Children of the people I
know that are my age or older are NOTHING like their parents. You'd never
even know they came from the same household.

But people are also greatly influenced by peers and sometimes by TV. They
are also influenced by what they REact to in their immediate and personal
environment (society, other people - NOT their families). You want to blame
conservatism or whatever on the state. But hold on. Do you see NOTHING in
society that would make people GET more conservative? I sure the hell DO.
Tommy, when he was running, I voted for BUCHANNAN. Why? Isolationism and
labor for citizens - that's why. I didn't give a shit about the abortion
issues or things that really do not affect me in the least. Once upon a
time I did. Not anymore. Those ideas fell by the wayside, they got shelved
as NOT immediate and pertinent to ME.

Post by Tani Jantsang Â©
THE TRUE SELF. But your analogy does serve to establish my point regarding a
blank slate, which our brain is.

I never said the brain is a blank slate - and it is NOT a blank slate at
all. We are born with instintcs. Those instincts direct the 5 senses to
SEEK and GET, among other things. It's all very concrete and direct. By
the age of 7 or 8, logic either neurologically develops and is wired in - or
it's not - and if not, it's not ever gonna develop later on. Neurology has
shown this - and I agree with it based on my OWN observations.

Everything is learned yet the manner in

Post by Tani Jantsang Â©
which this is done and how it's put together constitutes what the individual
is or who the individual is. So you have this synthesized bifurcation. Your
true self that begins to emerge when you are young and enjoying the things
you are learning hopefully from a loving parent is suddenly shocked into
catatonia by the State.

I disagree. This is NOT true for people I choose to hang with at all. It
IS true and WAS true for the writer of "Convalescence from Christianity" but
it was not the state that did a thing to him. It was suffocating parents.
People end up so fucked up that the basic things of instinct are LOST to
them - they do not know when they are hungry even, or even when they are
horny. Klippoth! That's what I call them. They don't know what they feel
when they feel it - they are like scattered things - not one whole at all.
I avoid people like that,Tommy.

It's as if Richard M. Nixon personally comes to your

Post by Tani Jantsang Â©
Indianapolis or Ohio upper middle class community front door, like the stork
comes to the chimney and says 'Madam hand over your child' our Masters
require consumers, soldiers, people to work in the mines, whatever, and they
must be properly trained by the State to serve our private sector Masters.

THE PREFERRED POSITION OF THE STATE OVER THE INDIVIDUAL. There isn't any

real difference here than what Hitler did, Lenin, Stalin &c because
essentially there is no difference between right wing conservatism and
communism because both place the State in a preferred position over the
individual. D. W. Griffith's "Intolerance" is apropos in this regard

Well, the state here is supposed to be elected BY the people - and then do
things FOR and OF the people. The problem is, things changed. What you are
describing is not so much statism - but PRIMATISM - it's a primate thing.

Post by Tani Jantsang Â©
"When canons and prison bars wrought in the fires of intolerance ..."
The U.S. National Security State which sought to abolish our Society and
Constitution in 1947 is supposed to be a moderate version of Nazi fascism
and Communism (Republicans are the Nazis and the Democratics are the
Communists) but it isn't really, it's only a more evolved version - viz., a
"kinder and gentler fascism" coined by the late great I. F. Stone and there
are no longer any Communists they like Mussolini became fascists -- they're
going to use fascism to "keep hope alive" -e.g., oh you were so close to the
million men required but were one short otherwise we would have had
universal health care.

Well, we are headed for a civil war here - the fucking monkeys NEVER learn
from the past.

Post by Tani Jantsang Â©
SATAN, LUCIFER, THE DEVIL. In my view which is essentially the same as
Crowley's Satan, Lucifer &c (split cunt hairs if you like over appellation
"Shaitan") is not an evil thing but represents the rebellious
spirit -i.e.,
the establishment of the individual OVER the State, which in fact was the
purpose of our revolution against monarchy.

That is the definition modern satanists in satanic orgs use - yes. But Bobo
was asking about hmm, I forgot, LMAO. Anyway, that was a perception of many
people, not JUST the statists.

You see, we are here in the US

Post by Tani Jantsang Â©
of A, Crowley was in Britain under monarchy, where people could technically
still be killed by the State for cock sucking, ass fucking, &c, &c You
should also study the contrasting legal developments here and there circa
1904 thence onward into the US of A "return to normalcy" where Harding was
initiated into the KKK on the Capitol Steps. Previous to that time the
Courts were markedly and dramatically moving towards the thorough
vindication of the individual over the State.

I know a bit about the USA - tho not posting much on here. I did, a few
short posts on the west and such.

Post by Tani Jantsang Â©
The Satan, Lucifer, &c I've always identified with since I first started
reading "Paradise Lost" when I was 12 years old (also the year I ran away
from home and a very Conservative upbringing) was Milton's which is the same
as Crowley's. So any sort of criticism of this relationship with Crowley or
me is essential otherwise you miss the point, which you clearly have.

I don't miss the point. Milton is fiction. I understand what he's saying
tho - come on. Who doesn't? Bobo was interested in social perceptions of
this satan idea - and I copy/pasted something someone showed me about
perceptions. My take is very simple. I would not for real bother to "get
into spooks" in order to DO some revolution - or rebellious thing against
draconian tyranny. I have no desire to stick fantasy in with reality unless
I'm having FUN. I did not come from conservative anything, or people
(adults) who bothered me much at all. I got along very well with my
parents - and with us, it's was all very neuter - hard to explain. OK - the
only difference between grandma and dad was that grandma's voice was higher.
Otherwise they DID the same things, were ABLE TO DO the same things and were
very much the same with us as kids. We were told to SPEAK UP, speak your
heart. It's just too differnt. I helped to build a screen porch as a kid,
using tools - just like my brother helped with the garden and such. There
was no "distinction" between chores - but we all did them - after all, we
lived there, ate there, slept there were part of a family. That's how it
was. When there was leisure, that was great!

Post by Tani Jantsang Â©
CIRCUMSTANCES OF BIRTH. If you're born rich then such circumstance is not a
fair object of review it's what you do with it that accounts: but the key to
this is who's to Judge or by what standard is such a person to be judged.
For me the answer is simple. The rule of law under individual sovereignty
and limited government. But in the U.S. most of us are born into lower class
circumstances and try to claim middle class status. Middle class today is at
least $150K per annum so the States make up the difference in perquisites
for their Judges.

Well, there are no sociolects in our language - that means no social classes
either. Male and female names are even the same - it doesn't matter. Tani
can be a boy or girl's name. It's too different from what you experienced -
way too different. There is no generation gap at all - NOT at all - and I'm
still the same way. I speak the same identical way to a 10 year old, an 80
year old, a 40 year old, male or female. It makes no difference.
Sometimes, OTHER people notice this and comment on it.

Post by Tani Jantsang Â©
I have found that a lot of the people that get into occult studies &c did
not actually have a POD prepared for them. Ironically, these are held in the
general social consensus as the unfortunate ones. So to that degree you
might have a point, they have no synthesized ego -viz., pod personality &c
to liberate themselves from, In fact they are so buried in the despair of
poverty and abuse that they have no time to discover themselves and having
no POD personality they have no means to secure or acquire protection from
the fascisti unless they sell drugs or collect money by some similar means -
e.g., rock 'n' Roll, pro sports whence they must drink from Nixon's bed pan
anyway.

Many people that get into satanism, like the cos bullies that I can see
STILL try to libel me on here, heh) are 100% SUPER POD people - they are all
victims of abuse in one way or the other - and they now have become ABUSERS
with the stupid SB to praise them for doing it. That is all they CAN do,
too. I despise them - there are no words for it even. You are obviously
NOT one of them. But you also obviously do NOT click or hang with the same
TYPES of people I tend to meet and click with.

Post by Tani Jantsang Â©
So yes whether it be from unanswered prayers or want of vengeance they come
looking for an all powerful super hero DEVIL that will give them magical
powers to kick the shit out of the boys that roughed them up and fucked over
just so they could ride around in a car for a few hours trying to forget
that their father just fucked them because his wife is ugly or simply not
interested or hollered at them or kicked the shit out of them because they
can't do the same to their boss at work The scenarios are endless, made for
TV dramas twists them around pretty well.

And they might get kicked for doing that once again by people they
needlessly harass who aren't used to being harassed by anyone.

Post by Tani Jantsang Â©
THE ACTUAL WAR. Is between the State and the individual. The Left wing state
(here Democratics) wants people to develop from PODS (allusion to "The
Invasion of the Body Snatchers") and the right wing already has enough of
them so they try to think up ways they can profitably kill the
remainders -e.g., send them to prison factories, make them clean toilets,
flip hamburgers and eventually compromise and make them die of cancer as a
subsidy to middle class doctors and hospital administrators. Hence, managed
disease and managed crime which is apparently more profitable and economical
than eradication.
So the big scheme for the Monolith is to get everything to go along with
their plan and have essentially agreed on POD breeding. Perhaps Scalia will
tell us we had "constructive notice" from the motion picture, failed to
object and therefore unanimously approved.
ANNIHILATION. is brought about by the individual coming up with alternatives
by utterly blocking out all influences from the aforesaid system. So the
trick is in knowing what to keep and what to destroy. Like you don't want to
throw away natural law, natural rights, individual sovereignty &c. which is
what the State spends trillion of dollars convincing you that you should do.
Do you see my point?

Your point about the state is obvious, imo. I prefer having fun - and there
is such a thing as moving between things, going around things.

Post by Tani Jantsang Â©
So your comment on delving into your emotions? Do you think it's impossible
for the poverty stricken and abused person to do so while remaining in such
situation and/or not the typical POD person?

There is no reason why such people need to devlve into their emotions. They
KNOW what they are feeling at any given moment. That was my point.

All that has to be done is that

Post by Tani Jantsang Â©
the real self has to be reached. Timothy Leary proved it Nationally with
LSD.

Well, that's your method maybe. I tend to click with people that know
exactly what they are feeling at ANY given moment. That type doesn't tend
to "take their shit out" on others and then weeks later, "realize" they were
doing it. It's not hard to tell these types of people apart, Tommy. In
other words,if I'm in a shitty mood because of a,b, c, d, e, I have no
problem (and usually DO) blurting it out for all to hear and VENTING right
then and there -even if NO ONE is there to hear it (LMAO). It's
instinctive - spontaneous.

Post by Tani Jantsang Â©
Any Satanic group that does something else is merely a front for the State
and the Monolith
Your comment above

Uh uh, not my comment. My copy/paste. I have no idea who said it. It's a
quote from something.

is obsolete and I dare say baby shit in comparison to

Post by Tani Jantsang Â©
what I'm talking about here and now. The real Satanic Hero in our time was
Timothy Leary. Nobody has the balls to do this kind of stuff
nowadays -e.g.,
all the Mcs are kissing Bono's ass and he'll probably have them all to vote
for John McCain:)

I was never into drugs of that type. Just not my thing. I did see a very
regular person (the type I'd say should NEVER mess with acid) get slipped
LSD and well, she was babysitting. She mistook the infant for a turkey.
Guess the rest. It was really REALLY awful. Pot same, tried that once, fell
asleep. Not my thing. We do not all have brains that developed in the same
way. I'm instinctive first. Then I am VERY sentual (smell and taste are
like "super"), ears are good, etc. Then I'm logical. In that order. I
think/feel as ONE thing. I can speak and put feelings aside and easily jump
paradigms, in other words, "thinking the thoughts and speaking the words of
someone else, or a character." It's easy. But over and above all, I'm
pretty cheerful and I love play and fun. I'm responsible, however. I don't
say I'll DO something that I never manage to get to, or finish.

Blazin' Tommy D.

2005-03-24 02:11:11 UTC

[clip]

Post by Tani Jantsang Â©
environment (society, other people - NOT their families). You want to blame
conservatism or whatever on the state. But hold on. Do you see NOTHING in
society that would make people GET more conservative? I sure the hell DO.
Tommy, when he was running, I voted for BUCHANNAN. Why? Isolationism and
labor for citizens - that's why. I didn't give a shit about the abortion
issues or things that really do not affect me in the least. Once upon a
time I did. Not anymore. Those ideas fell by the wayside, they got shelved
as NOT immediate and pertinent to ME.

[clip]

Post by Tani Jantsang Â©
Well, the state here is supposed to be elected BY the people - and then do
things FOR and OF the people. The problem is, things changed. What you are
describing is not so much statism - but PRIMATISM - it's a primate thing.

Post by Blazin' Tommy D.
"When canons and prison bars wrought in the fires of intolerance ..."
The U.S. National Security State which sought to abolish our Society and
Constitution in 1947 is supposed to be a moderate version of Nazi fascism
and Communism (Republicans are the Nazis and the Democratics are the
Communists) but it isn't really, it's only a more evolved version -

viz.,

Post by Blazin' Tommy D.
a
"kinder and gentler fascism" coined by the late great I. F. Stone and there
are no longer any Communists they like Mussolini became fascists -- they're
going to use fascism to "keep hope alive" -e.g., oh you were so close to the
million men required but were one short otherwise we would have had
universal health care.

[clip]

the point, which you clearly have.

Post by Tani Jantsang Â©
I don't miss the point. Milton is fiction. I understand what he's saying
tho - come on. Who doesn't?

[clip]

Post by Blazin' Tommy D.
THE ACTUAL WAR. Is between the State and the individual. The Left wing state
(here Democratics) wants people to develop from PODS (allusion to "The
Invasion of the Body Snatchers") and the right wing already has enough of
them so they try to think up ways they can profitably kill the
remainders -e.g., send them to prison factories, make them clean toilets,
flip hamburgers and eventually compromise and make them die of cancer as a
subsidy to middle class doctors and hospital administrators. Hence, managed
disease and managed crime which is apparently more profitable and economical
than eradication.
So the big scheme for the Monolith is to get everything to go along with
their plan and have essentially agreed on POD breeding. Perhaps Scalia will
tell us we had "constructive notice" from the motion picture, failed to
object and therefore unanimously approved.
ANNIHILATION. is brought about by the individual coming up with alternatives
by utterly blocking out all influences from the aforesaid system. So the
trick is in knowing what to keep and what to destroy. Like you don't

want

Post by Blazin' Tommy D.
to
throw away natural law, natural rights, individual sovereignty &c. which is
what the State spends trillion of dollars convincing you that you should do.
Do you see my point?

Your point about the state is obvious, imo. I prefer having fun - and there
is such a thing as moving between things, going around things.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
BTD: (ALT.MAGICK) Well you are missing the big picture which is obvious in
how you respond to my various posts -- e.g., examining the trees yet missing
the forest

Ist off you say you don't care about privacy and then declare that you voted
for a person that is absolutely opposed to it because of some vague and
abstract notion about "labor for citizens". You mean slaves for the ruling
class? That's "primatism". So then what do you do? Bitch when the state
invades YOUR privacy rather than preventing it from occurring in the first
place because you "prefer having fun" rather than learning how to use your
power.

You're confused about the rule of law and majority rule. They are two
separate, distinct and diametrically opposed ideas. You think the rule of
law is evil and persons that believe in majority rule think that I'm
Satanic. In actuality, they are closer to the truth than they know.

You and they are the ones that don't understand what the Satanic hero is nor
do you or they truly understand the allegory set forth by Milton, which is
of course the same as in Prometheus and practically any tale regarding
Hermes or similar characters.

Apollo, Zeus or whatever is the ruling power, while heaven or the heavens
is the State or empire. The rebellion is radical in nature:
it only occurs where or when the personality usurps the power and integrity
of the State -- like all so called Conservative Presidents do as a regular
course of their administrative practice. The inevitable remedy is the
realization of Locke's social compact, the individual is sovereign -- not a
King not a Parliament. It's what our supreme law of the land is all about.

People that exploit such tales like the Bible attempt to make these stories
represent the way life is according to some all powerful entity like Zeus or
Apollo - Calvinism, it is preordained, everything operates inside of that
pre-destiny and they oppose any that attempt to go or in any manner act
outside of it. But going outside isn't the rebellion, it is our prerogative
as sovereign individuals; nor is the rebellion one against the State, or as
in my case the supreme law of the land, it is rebellion against the one or
those claiming the power to prevent others from going out side.

The problem with Left wing groups is that they want to throw the baby out
with the bathwater. The problem with the right wing groups is they don't
care just as long as they rule in the end.

So the god of these tales is not G_d, it is an allegory of an all powerful
entity like a king, Emperor &c. The rebellion is not against G_d. Anyperson
that is a Satanist that believes otherwise has been duped by the right wing
and will eventually succumb to their form of thinking (like you voting for
Pukanan) or else liberate themselves from it -- this requires delving deep
within yourself to work these things out and it will involve your emotions.
Only you can do it because you are a sovereign without subjects.

Do it and you will know how Kings feel.

Tani Jantsang ©

2005-03-24 21:48:32 UTC

"Blazin' Tommy D." <***@stny.rr.com> wrote in message news:3lp0e.152631$***@twister.nyroc.rr.com...

Does "clip" mean "snip?"

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Post by Blazin' Tommy D.
BTD: (ALT.MAGICK) Well you are missing the big picture which is obvious in
how you respond to my various posts -- e.g., examining the trees yet missing
the forest

Wrong. I've seen the Big Picture for decades. At my age, I choose to flush
it, ignore it, to hell with it. I have things to do, enjoyable things and
some small chores. I dont particularly invest in "caring" anymore - but
nowadays there is a kind of "dread" looming over the horizon - and I KNOW
what's coming. No use dwelling on it. It's like a big ball rolling and
there is no stopping it. It's 100% practical, but it's BIG, very very big
and complicated. We are in for Civil War. The stage is set. It is going
to happen.

Post by Blazin' Tommy D.
Ist off you say you don't care about privacy and then declare that you voted
for a person that is absolutely opposed to it because of some vague and
abstract notion about "labor for citizens".

No, nothing vague about it. He wanted to have isolationism ala Monroe
Doctrine. I'm for that. He was against interfering in foreign wars and
crap - and for trading with anyone anywhere that had something worth trading
for - and that's it. He said that unbridled capitalism has to stop, you can
not just throw workers away or expect them to work on wages they can't live
on. I agree. That's not vague. What do you mean I don't care about
privacy? What kind of privacy do you mean?

You mean slaves for the ruling

Post by Blazin' Tommy D.
class?

That might be your spin on "working at a job earning a GOOD wage" but it's
not my spin. Owning a company is a god damned chore. I have a choice - I
can do that, or I can opt to work FOR a company and get a wage. My choice.
Am I part of the ruling class because I rent out property and profit from
it? Hey, I also own the properties, I have to take care of them. It's not
all one way.

That's "primatism". So then what do you do? Bitch when the state

Post by Blazin' Tommy D.
invades YOUR privacy rather than preventing it from occurring in the first
place because you "prefer having fun" rather than learning how to use your
power.

The state never invaded my privacy, Tommy. What are you talking about, what
did I bitch about? How can I bitch about the state doing that if the state
never did it to me? However, some Satanists tried to do that - go figure.
That is what they would DO if they had real power, too.

Post by Blazin' Tommy D.
You're confused about the rule of law and majority rule. They are two
separate, distinct and diametrically opposed ideas. You think the rule of
law is evil and persons that believe in majority rule think that I'm
Satanic. In actuality, they are closer to the truth than they know.
You and they are the ones that don't understand what the Satanic hero is

Yes, I do. The Satanic hero changes depending on who defines it. The
Satanic villian changes depending on who defines it. Your definition is
from fiction and very new age, new. I don't see anything remotely related
to the Satan that tests a person's loyalty to God. That is what Satan is -
and if copyrights existed, it would be copyright - to Hebrews. No one
would then be able to change that meaning. I could introduce you to quite a
few very devout Christians that are Miltonian to the max - and in DEED too.
They are fearless. They were the first to yank their kids out of public
school too, because their kids were being dumbed down, not educated and
BEATEN UP by bullies every single day. They challenged the state on that.
In deed! Not words. In their opinion, the state you hate so much IS
Satan - and by that they have a new definition of Satan too - they believe
the state is evil incarnate aka "satanic." So who's right?

nor

Post by Blazin' Tommy D.
do you or they truly understand the allegory set forth by Milton, which is
of course the same as in Prometheus and practically any tale regarding
Hermes or similar characters.

Sure I do. I just don't agree with your terms - or your politics entirely.
Non agreement does not imply non understanding.

Let me see if I get this right then. You rebelled against something in your
own household that was repressive and tyrannical. You saw your household as
being indicative of a state of pod people. Is that right? If so, then OK.
Consider then further - your entire paradism of people, what they do, why
they do it, why they feel or think things, is based on YOUR OWN paradigm.
Not on theirs. Try walking in the shoes of a father or mother whose kid is
subjected to that kind of garbage in school, traumatizing shit, too, kids
experiencing battle fatique (that's pretty bad). Try feeling what they felt
when they broke the law and refused to send the child back to that school
and chose to teach him at home, on their time. You aren't going to tell me
that that kind of bullying that goes on these days is the fault of the state
or encouraged by the state. It's not. I'm against privatization of school,
h ome schooling, because of what it will BECOME the next few generations
down. Parents won't teach their kids - you'll have kids with no education
all over again. I'm in favor of putting the public schools back to where
they were when I went - and there was ZERO tolerance for kids acting out and
behaving the way they behave now. But I strayed from the point. Your
paradigm - life expereiences - lead you to believe what you believe. Your
mistake is in assuming that disagreement means non-understanding, or that
disagreement means others are wrong. I made myself perfectly clear. I did
NOT have the same experiences you had; I do NOT run into or click with the
same people you seem to run into. And imo, using "Satan" either way, as
these Christians use it and/or as you use it, is SILLY. That is what I
said.

Post by Blazin' Tommy D.
Apollo, Zeus or whatever is the ruling power, while heaven or the heavens
it only occurs where or when the personality usurps the power and integrity
of the State -- like all so called Conservative Presidents do as a regular
course of their administrative practice. The inevitable remedy is the
realization of Locke's social compact, the individual is sovereign -- not a
King not a Parliament. It's what our supreme law of the land is all about.
People that exploit such tales like the Bible attempt to make these stories
represent the way life is according to some all powerful entity like Zeus or
Apollo - Calvinism, it is preordained, everything operates inside of that
pre-destiny and they oppose any that attempt to go or in any manner act
outside of it.

Do they? They don't think that rebellious people rebelling is also pre
ordained? I think they do.

But going outside isn't the rebellion, it is our prerogative

Post by Blazin' Tommy D.
as sovereign individuals; nor is the rebellion one against the State, or as
in my case the supreme law of the land, it is rebellion against the one or
those claiming the power to prevent others from going out side.
The problem with Left wing groups is that they want to throw the baby out
with the bathwater. The problem with the right wing groups is they don't
care just as long as they rule in the end.

Left wing groups behave the same as right wing ones, especially if they do
manage to get power. No - left wing groups are usually people who feel
guilty about nothing and only feel good if they are taking money from others
and handing out to those they have a romantic feeling for (usually, people
that appear to need help. Note I said appear). Right wingers want to keep
what they have and don't want someone taking it from them and handing it
over to others.

Post by Blazin' Tommy D.
So the god of these tales is not G_d, it is an allegory of an all powerful
entity like a king, Emperor &c. The rebellion is not against G_d. Anyperson
that is a Satanist that believes otherwise has been duped by the right wing
and will eventually succumb to their form of thinking (like you voting for
Pukanan) or else liberate themselves from it -- this requires delving deep
within yourself to work these things out and it will involve your emotions.
Only you can do it because you are a sovereign without subjects.

No, it doesn't involve a damned thing regarding my emotions. You don't like
who I voted for. Too bad! He actually stood for some of the stuff we have in
SR. He aas the only one, too. He got my vote. That simple. I'm also a
member of info numbers usa. My stance is a lot stronger than theirs is.

Post by Blazin' Tommy D.
Do it and you will know how Kings feel.

Understand this - I am a King (well, Queen). And like most of them, heh, I
don't care about ANY of this except to chat about it on here, cast a vote,
etc. Basically, and god damn I hate that this sounds like a quote, but
basically I just DO NOT concern myself with shit that literally doesn't
concern me. MY concern is "WE NEED MORE GOD DAMNED PARKING SPACES" at our
beach. That IS of concern to me. Maybe you just don't understand that.
Maybe YOU suffereed persecution or some kind from someone, state, whoever.
I don't know. I never did, Tommy. I also don't go out of my way to
persecute others - I have no desire to bother with that kind of thing.

Blazin' Tommy D.

2005-03-25 11:17:31 UTC

Post by Tani Jantsang Â©
Does "clip" mean "snip?"
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Post by Blazin' Tommy D.
BTD: (ALT.MAGICK) Well you are missing the big picture which is obvious in
how you respond to my various posts -- e.g., examining the trees yet missing
the forest

Wrong.

[material has been removed from this post in the area designated by these
brackets; and where ordinarily this fact would be noticed by the word "clip"
appearing in brackets, Tani suddenly doesn't under stand what "clip" means
so I have included this setence for her personal elucidation which is
otherwsie unnecessay to all others that read NGs]

Post by Tani Jantsang Â©
Maybe YOU suffereed persecution or some kind from someone, state, whoever.
I don't know. I never did, Tommy. I also don't go out of my way to
persecute others - I have no desire to bother with that kind of thing.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
BTD: Voting for Pukanan, you don't have to: he'd be more than happy to do
all of that for you IF he had the a mob to back him up.

I can see why your critics are so harsh on you Tani: you accuse them of
being Nazis, fascists and anti-Judaics when you yourself vote for Nazis and
assail me with ad hominem insults regarding the fact that I'm a Jew. It
seems to me a rather common tactic of almost anyone claiming to be a
Satanist.

The following is the supreme law of the land (see Art VI., cl 2, US Const)
Yick Wo v Hopkins 118 US 356 @ 370, 373:

"Sovereignty itself is, of course, not subject to law, for it is the author
and source of the law; but in our system, while sovereign powers are
delegated to agencies of government, sovereignty itself remains with the
people, by whom and for whom all government exists and acts. And the law is
the definition and limitation of power . . . . [T]he fundamental rights to
life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness, considered as individual
possessions, are secured by those maxims of constitutional law which are the
monuments showing the victorious progress of the race in securing to men the
blessings of civilization under the reign of just and equal laws, so that,
in the famous language of the Massachusetts bill of rights, the government
of the commonwealth 'may be a government of laws and not men.' For the very
idea that one man may be compelled to hold his life, or means of living, or
any material right essential to the enjoyment of life, at the mere will of
another, seems to be intolerable in any country where freedom prevails, as
being the essence of slavery itself".

In short, no act may be done by government unless it is authorized by US --
the people -- as expressly evidenced by the US Const. The only exception to
this is "the necessary and proper" clause (US Const) see Art 1, sec 8 cl. 18

So the "rule of law" is comprised of rulings made in court decisions which
remedy an injured party from some sort of deprivation by the State or
private individuals. Acts of government without authority are without due
process and are therefore void. Democratic-republicans added an extra an
unnecessary burden to this - viz., when brought before a court --- on injury
in fact --- they shall be struck down unless the Judges are Conservatives.
One consequence of the rule of law is evidenced in the following decision:
Cogswell v NY, NH & H. R.R. Co. 103 NY 10, 21:

"[T]he statutory sanction which will justify an injury to private property,
must be express, or must be given by clear and unquestionable implication
from the powers expressly conferred, so that it can fairly be said that the
legislature contemplated the doing of the very act which occasioned the
injury. This is but an application of the reasonable rule that statutes in
derogation of private rights, or which may result in imposing burdens upon
private property, must be strictly construed. For it cannot be presumed,
from a general grant of authority, that the legislature intended to
authorize acts to the injury of third persons, where no compensation is
provided, except upon condition of obtaining their consent.. [Id. @ 21-22:]"

Which developed into what is known here as the strict construction doctrine.

Now Mr. Mojo (who is acting like a sassy little bitch hiding under Kitty's
cloak) has criticized government's use of what is known as "The Police
Power" which is the power of the State or Federal government to pass
legislation necessary for the protection of the public health and safety and
from time to time provisions under said claimed authority encroach upon
someone's or some groups' fundamental rights (Life, Liberty or Property
interests) and under the rule of law it becomes incumbent upon the State to
show a compelling State interest for such provision tending to deprive
person(s) of such rights and such showing must be to the extent that no
other State means can be shown to achieve the necessary and proper result.
If they fail the provision is struck down

States rights and majoritarian rule advocates (the Republican Party, White
Southern Democratics and a considerable number of Mcs) don't like the rule
of law and refer to it as either judicial activism or legislating from the
bench mostly because they can't live with some nigger to beat with a rubber
hose in order to give their life meaning and make them feel like they're
better than someone else; and therefore argue that the rule of law only
applies to the Federal government, and that the State government is
practically sovereign saving of course such things as a persons right to
pray and go to church (see 9th and 10th Amendments US Const).

Under this (erm) 'paradigm' if a State does something that no one ever
intended to allow it to do except for some majority therein and the US Const
doesn't expressly say they can't, then you as an individual are fucked under
the decisions of Conservative Judges and shall remain absolutely subject to
whatever provision is so challenged for all of your natural remaining days
on earth amen. That is the Conservative Party and Pat Pukanan in a nutshell;
and if that's what you are then may the forces of nature have their way with
you. In which case it makes sense that you would attempt to erect altars to
such forces because you have no understanding of G_d or Justice and nothing
else exists that will help you except wishful thinking which might comfort
you a bit before you're wiped off the face of the earth, possibly quite
violently.

Now if I were a Presbyterian or an Irish Roman Catholic there would be
nothing more to say, but because I'm a Jew well, there always is, isn't
there. First of all thinking that Satan is something that tempts a person to
challenge G_d is about as retarded and lame as it gets.

The entire ideology of limited government and individual sovereignty is an
extension of Natural Law and Natural Rights which is based on natural
need -i.e., water, food, sleep, self defence and socializing. It is a
humanist or pro human ideology because none of these things are perfect
rights. Most of the people that put their blood into the chalice or however
you want to look at it attribute this system to G_d. Others attribute it to
nature.

But there isn't any escaping from it, Tani. No one gets out alive:)

Once you understand these things you'd see that what you're attempting to
express is babyshit. You sound like one of these slobbish low lives that
joined the hippie movement as an apparent opportunity to justify your
slobbish way of life. Otherwise you're a liar and got tired of battling what
you perceived as injustice and knuckled under and submitted to the status
quo, which is why I'm generally against Satanism particularly as it exist in
the US, because that's all it does and elsewhere its just a front for Nazi
white supremacy.

My injury by the State is publicly documented in my Federal case against my
local government and the other soon will be involving NYS DMV removal of my
driving privileges for reasons having nothing to do with public health and
safety and being an act entirely without any authority whatsoever. The only
involvement my family has in this is either as victims or because I'm a Jew,
faggot, crossdresser, know the law, take your pick.

Lastly it never ceases to amaze me how you Mcs always manage to synthesize
some justification for voting for one of your own. I figured the McCain slur
would really burn your ass, that's why I made it:)

Hey maybe you can do a duo with Bono!

Tani Jantsang ©

2005-03-29 01:10:49 UTC

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
BTD: Voting for Pukanan, you don't have to: he'd be more than happy to do
all of that for you IF he had the a mob to back him up.

Nope. Buchannan was specifically in favor of specific thing I have on the
top of my list. I don't care enough about the other stuff he's in favor of
that I'm 100% against. It's that simple. It's weighing. I hate Bush - and
I also hated Kerry tho I did vote for Kerry.
Most of the critics hard on me are that way out of a lack of anything else
to do in their lives. They produce nothing, inform nobody, inspire nobody
and have nothing otherwise to say - except to throw stones at people on
usenet. They are losers - supereme nowhere people. POD people.

you accuse them of

Post by Blazin' Tommy D.
being Nazis, fascists and anti-Judaics when you yourself vote for Nazis

Buchannan is not a Nazi. He was an old style, SMALL gov, republican and
Americanist ala Monroe Doctrine. The N and R words are, imo, useless
today - they have been too abused to mean a thing. Of course, I could
always LIE and say I voted Socialist. Right?

and

Post by Blazin' Tommy D.
assail me with ad hominem insults regarding the fact that I'm a Jew.

What the fuck are you talking about? I never insulted you. Jeff is also
Jewish, and I mean Orthodox Jewish, not "satanist" or any of that crap - and
he TOO voted Buchannan for the same specific reasons I did. Jeff was also
ADL.

It

Post by Blazin' Tommy D.
seems to me a rather common tactic of almost anyone claiming to be a
Satanist.

I never insulted you. You are trying hard to insult me, tho. And over
what? A freaking vote that counts for ZERO?

Post by Blazin' Tommy D.
The following is the supreme law of the land (see Art VI., cl 2, US Const)
"Sovereignty itself is, of course, not subject to law, for it is the author
and source of the law; but in our system, while sovereign powers are
delegated to agencies of government, sovereignty itself remains with the
people, by whom and for whom all government exists and acts. And the law is
the definition and limitation of power . . . . [T]he fundamental rights to
life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness, considered as individual
possessions, are secured by those maxims of constitutional law which are the
monuments showing the victorious progress of the race in securing to men the
blessings of civilization under the reign of just and equal laws, so that,
in the famous language of the Massachusetts bill of rights, the government
of the commonwealth 'may be a government of laws and not men.' For the very
idea that one man may be compelled to hold his life, or means of living, or
any material right essential to the enjoyment of life, at the mere will of
another, seems to be intolerable in any country where freedom prevails, as
being the essence of slavery itself".

Buchannan was all for that - you've been listening to propaganda if you
don't know that. He was for SMALL gov, Monroe Doctrine, isolationism, labor
laws back to normal, worker rights. Those are the reasons I liked him.

Post by Blazin' Tommy D.
In short, no act may be done by government unless it is authorized by US --
the people -- as expressly evidenced by the US Const. The only exception to
this is "the necessary and proper" clause (US Const) see Art 1, sec 8 cl. 18
So the "rule of law" is comprised of rulings made in court decisions which
remedy an injured party from some sort of deprivation by the State or
private individuals.

Sorry, but the rule of the Supreme Court for a long time (before Jeff and I
and some others fought it to the top and won) were draconian tyranny and
they harmed CHILDREN. I refer to the schools. The PEOPLE never wanted it.
But the PEOPLE got it shoved down their throats.

Acts of government without authority are without due

Post by Blazin' Tommy D.
process and are therefore void. Democratic-republicans added an extra an
unnecessary burden to this - viz., when brought before a court --- on injury
in fact --- they shall be struck down unless the Judges are Conservatives.
"[T]he statutory sanction which will justify an injury to private property,
must be express, or must be given by clear and unquestionable implication
from the powers expressly conferred, so that it can fairly be said that the
legislature contemplated the doing of the very act which occasioned the
injury. This is but an application of the reasonable rule that statutes in
derogation of private rights, or which may result in imposing burdens upon
private property, must be strictly construed. For it cannot be presumed,
from a general grant of authority, that the legislature intended to
authorize acts to the injury of third persons, where no compensation is
Which developed into what is known here as the strict construction doctrine.

I think you have heard propaganda against Pat B. Really. He kinda reminded
me of Davey Crocket - sort of. He may have had some really conservative
values and morals - so what on that - but he was hard left on the rest. OLD
left.

Post by Blazin' Tommy D.
Now Mr. Mojo (who is acting like a sassy little bitch hiding under Kitty's
cloak) has criticized government's use of what is known as "The Police
Power" which is the power of the State or Federal government to pass
legislation necessary for the protection of the public health and safety and
from time to time provisions under said claimed authority encroach upon
someone's or some groups' fundamental rights (Life, Liberty or Property
interests) and under the rule of law it becomes incumbent upon the State to
show a compelling State interest for such provision tending to deprive
person(s) of such rights and such showing must be to the extent that no
other State means can be shown to achieve the necessary and proper result.
If they fail the provision is struck down

I have no idea who or what you are talking about there.

Post by Blazin' Tommy D.
States rights and majoritarian rule advocates (the Republican Party, White
Southern Democratics and a considerable number of Mcs) don't like the rule
of law and refer to it as either judicial activism or legislating from the
bench mostly because they can't live with some nigger to beat with a rubber
hose in order to give their life meaning and make them feel like they're
better than someone else;

Woah, are you aware of WHO Buchannan chose as his running mate? I really
think you are either confusing him with Robertson, or you don't know what he
was about.

and therefore argue that the rule of law only

Post by Blazin' Tommy D.
applies to the Federal government, and that the State government is
practically sovereign saving of course such things as a persons right to
pray and go to church (see 9th and 10th Amendments US Const).
Under this (erm) 'paradigm' if a State does something that no one ever
intended to allow it to do except for some majority therein and the US Const
doesn't expressly say they can't, then you as an individual are fucked under
the decisions of Conservative Judges and shall remain absolutely subject to
whatever provision is so challenged for all of your natural remaining days
on earth amen. That is the Conservative Party and Pat Pukanan in a nutshell;
and if that's what you are then may the forces of nature have their way with
you. In which case it makes sense that you would attempt to erect altars to
such forces because you have no understanding of G_d or Justice and nothing
else exists that will help you except wishful thinking which might comfort
you a bit before you're wiped off the face of the earth, possibly quite
violently.
Now if I were a Presbyterian or an Irish Roman Catholic there would be
nothing more to say, but because I'm a Jew well, there always is, isn't
there. First of all thinking that Satan is something that tempts a person to
challenge G_d is about as retarded and lame as it gets.
The entire ideology of limited government and individual sovereignty is an
extension of Natural Law and Natural Rights which is based on natural
need -i.e., water, food, sleep, self defence and socializing. It is a
humanist or pro human ideology because none of these things are perfect
rights. Most of the people that put their blood into the chalice or however
you want to look at it attribute this system to G_d. Others attribute it to
nature.
But there isn't any escaping from it, Tani. No one gets out alive:)
Once you understand these things you'd see that what you're attempting to
express is babyshit. You sound like one of these slobbish low lives that
joined the hippie movement as an apparent opportunity to justify your
slobbish way of life.

Nope, never had time for that foolishness. I worked HARD - double shifts
and such. Had no time for those luxories and inanities. Most ethnics never
did get into that kind of crap. You judge my politics. You don't like
them. Hey - FINE. I don't care. But just to let you know - Jeff, an
ORTHODOX Jew and ADL member voted for the same guy I voted for - and for the
same reasons.

Otherwise you're a liar and got tired of battling what

Post by Blazin' Tommy D.
you perceived as injustice and knuckled under and submitted to the status
quo,

I'll tell you what INJUSTICE is. Injustice is black on non-black (everyone
else) racism that's so god damned brutal that it makes the KKK look like a
picnic. But nothing is there to stop it. Educated people who are US
citizens of all races - can't get jobs or anything else because of the
Hispanic unarmed invasion in certain areas of the country - where they
proceed to wreck labor laws that people fought and died for. THAT is
injustice. People coming in here with diseases and bankrupting the hospital
systems and feeding like PARASITES off the public dole - meanwhile "they"
say social security is in danger? THAT is injustice. These are GUT
issues - and I feel them very keenly.

which is why I'm generally against Satanism particularly as it exist in

Post by Blazin' Tommy D.
the US, because that's all it does and elsewhere its just a front for Nazi
white supremacy.

I don't care about whites or their problems. EVERYONE ELSE that came here
once had good quality with labor laws. They learned the language. And so
forth. You branding something "Nazi" doesn't make it so. Stop seeing the
world in black and white there.

Post by Blazin' Tommy D.
My injury by the State is publicly documented in my Federal case against my
local government and the other soon will be involving NYS DMV removal of my
driving privileges for reasons having nothing to do with public health and
safety and being an act entirely without any authority whatsoever. The only
involvement my family has in this is either as victims or because I'm a Jew,
faggot, crossdresser, know the law, take your pick.

I do not believe that you lost your driver's licence for being Jewish, cross
dresser or gay. No way. That's pure paranoia.

Post by Blazin' Tommy D.
Lastly it never ceases to amaze me how you Mcs always manage to synthesize
some justification for voting for one of your own. I figured the McCain slur
would really burn your ass, that's why I made it:)

What are you talking about? I'm not a Mc anything. And, Buchannan's
running mate was a BLACK WOMAN - not a Mc.

Post by Blazin' Tommy D.
Hey maybe you can do a duo with Bono!

Who the hell is Bono? You mean Bobo Nagasiva?

Delila

2005-03-29 02:34:27 UTC

No, LOL! Bono is the lead singer of U2, which happens to be my favorite
rock group. He's also politically active, and I don't necessarily agree with
his tactics of cozying up with the likes of the pope, Jesse Helms, Clinton,
Bush, etc. His heart's in the right place but he's going about trying to
change things the wrong way, imo.

D.

Blazin' Tommy D.

2005-03-29 12:56:36 UTC

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
BTD: Voting for Pukanan, you don't have to: he'd be more than happy to do
all of that for you IF he had the a mob to back him up.

Post by Blazin' Tommy D.
being Nazis, fascists and anti-Judaics when you yourself vote for Nazis

Post by Blazin' Tommy D.
assail me with ad hominem insults regarding the fact that I'm a Jew.

Post by Blazin' Tommy D.
seems to me a rather common tactic of almost anyone claiming to be a
Satanist.

I never insulted you. You are trying hard to insult me, tho. And over
what? A freaking vote that counts for ZERO?

cl.

Post by Blazin' Tommy D.
18
So the "rule of law" is comprised of rulings made in court decisions which
remedy an injured party from some sort of deprivation by the State or
private individuals.

Sorry, but the rule of the Supreme Court for a long time (before Jeff and I
and some others fought it to the top and won) were draconian tyranny and
they harmed CHILDREN. I refer to the schools. The PEOPLE never wanted it.
But the PEOPLE got it shoved down their throats.
Acts of government without authority are without due

Conservatives.

Post by Blazin' Tommy D.
"[T]he statutory sanction which will justify an injury to private property,
must be express, or must be given by clear and unquestionable implication
from the powers expressly conferred, so that it can fairly be said that the
legislature contemplated the doing of the very act which occasioned the
injury. This is but an application of the reasonable rule that statutes in
derogation of private rights, or which may result in imposing burdens upon
private property, must be strictly construed. For it cannot be presumed,
from a general grant of authority, that the legislature intended to
authorize acts to the injury of third persons, where no compensation is
Which developed into what is known here as the strict construction doctrine.

OLD

I have no idea who or what you are talking about there.

person

Post by Blazin' Tommy D.
to
challenge G_d is about as retarded and lame as it gets.
The entire ideology of limited government and individual sovereignty is an
extension of Natural Law and Natural Rights which is based on natural
need -i.e., water, food, sleep, self defence and socializing. It is a
humanist or pro human ideology because none of these things are perfect
rights. Most of the people that put their blood into the chalice or however
you want to look at it attribute this system to G_d. Others attribute it to
nature.
But there isn't any escaping from it, Tani. No one gets out alive:)
Once you understand these things you'd see that what you're attempting to
express is babyshit. You sound like one of these slobbish low lives that
joined the hippie movement as an apparent opportunity to justify your
slobbish way of life.

Nope, never had time for that foolishness. I worked HARD - double shifts
and such. Had no time for those luxories and inanities. Most ethnics never
did get into that kind of crap. You judge my politics. You don't like
them. Hey - FINE. I don't care. But just to let you know - Jeff, an
ORTHODOX Jew and ADL member voted for the same guy I voted for - and for the
same reasons.
Otherwise you're a liar and got tired of battling what

Post by Blazin' Tommy D.
you perceived as injustice and knuckled under and submitted to the status
quo,

I'll tell you what INJUSTICE is. Injustice is black on non-black (everyone
else) racism that's so god damned brutal that it makes the KKK look like a
picnic. But nothing is there to stop it. Educated people who are US
citizens of all races - can't get jobs or anything else because of the
Hispanic unarmed invasion in certain areas of the country - where they
proceed to wreck labor laws that people fought and died for. THAT is
injustice. People coming in here with diseases and bankrupting the hospital
systems and feeding like PARASITES off the public dole - meanwhile "they"
say social security is in danger? THAT is injustice. These are GUT
issues - and I feel them very keenly.
which is why I'm generally against Satanism particularly as it exist in

Post by Blazin' Tommy D.
the US, because that's all it does and elsewhere its just a front for Nazi
white supremacy.

I do not believe that you lost your driver's licence for being Jewish, cross
dresser or gay. No way. That's pure paranoia.

What are you talking about? I'm not a Mc anything. And, Buchannan's
running mate was a BLACK WOMAN - not a Mc.

Post by Blazin' Tommy D.
Hey maybe you can do a duo with Bono!

Who the hell is Bono? You mean Bobo Nagasiva?

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
BTD: (alt.magick) Read.

2005-03-29 23:44:36 UTC

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
BTD: (alt.magick) Read.

I could suggest that YOU read - somethig other than this angst ridden bs
involving political paranoias that ain't gonna get you nowhere, not even if
you vote. Sit back and watch a nice TV show. Enjoy a nice day at the
beach (when it's warmer - GOD DAMMIT I wish it would warm up).

But you'll note that I suggested nothing. Your problems are not everyone's
problems or mine. Your wants are not everyone's wants, or mine. Accept
that. We are not the same person - and we can never BE the same person.

Blazin' Tommy D.

2005-03-22 01:21:08 UTC

Post by Tani Jantsang Â©
Bobo - regarding views of what the Devil is. I don't remember where we
spoke of this - but this would be of interest go you, it definitely ties
into views of the 60s and such.
The root anti-subversive impulse was fed by the Menace. Its power
strengthened with the passage of time, by the late twenties its influence
had become more pervasive and folkish. Bolshevism came to be identified over
wide areas of the country by God-fearing Americans as the Antichrist come to
do eschatological battle with the children of light. A slightly secularized
version, widely-shared in rural and small-town America, postulated a
doomsday conflict between decent upright folk and radicalism--alien,
satanic, immorality incarnate.102
http://www.publiceye.org/apocalyptic/Dances_with_Devils_1-01.html
--
Now, understand that people who had jobs like the one Wheatley had, did
indeed investigate all of this kind of thing.
Blazing Tommy might be interested in this too - since it's clear that HIS
view of "the evil" is heh, conservatism?

[clip]
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
BTD: (alt.magick)

The other aspect of this is that it is not radical. In fact it is
exceedingly superficial. All it is is politicking according to mob rule -
viz., get a mob to adopt one view point over another so that the one with
the most people rules for a while until a gob of the ruling mob in
paramecium like fashion blobs over into the other -- a lot of literature and
film have been commissioned to tell tales in this form to make it appear
that this is some sort of necessary result of humanity of as the Xtians are
fond to say "The Will of G_D"! It is merely the product of politicking and
propaganda.

I'm a social radical, this sort of thing is inimical to my cause.

2005-03-22 19:59:49 UTC

over

secularized

Post by Tani Jantsang Â©
version, widely-shared in rural and small-town America, postulated a
doomsday conflict between decent upright folk and radicalism--alien,
satanic, immorality incarnate.102
http://www.publiceye.org/apocalyptic/Dances_with_Devils_1-01.html
--
Now, understand that people who had jobs like the one Wheatley had, did
indeed investigate all of this kind of thing.
Blazing Tommy might be interested in this too - since it's clear that HIS
view of "the evil" is heh, conservatism?

[clip]
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
BTD: (alt.magick)
The other aspect of this is that it is not radical. In fact it is
exceedingly superficial. All it is is politicking according to mob rule -
viz., get a mob to adopt one view point over another so that the one with
the most people rules for a while until a gob of the ruling mob in
paramecium like fashion blobs over into the other -- a lot of literature and
film have been commissioned to tell tales in this form to make it appear
that this is some sort of necessary result of humanity of as the Xtians are
fond to say "The Will of G_D"! It is merely the product of politicking and
propaganda.
I'm a social radical, this sort of thing is inimical to my cause.

As I just posted, I didn't write it. I copy pasted it. I don't define
myself as a social radical or a social conservative. I'm a little of BOTH -
I pick and choose what I like - and if there is nothing to pick/choose - I
make up my own.

Blazin' Tommy D.

2005-03-24 01:08:48 UTC

over

secularized

[clip]
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
BTD: (alt.magick)
The other aspect of this is that it is not radical. In fact it is
exceedingly superficial. All it is is politicking according to mob rule -
viz., get a mob to adopt one view point over another so that the one with
the most people rules for a while until a gob of the ruling mob in
paramecium like fashion blobs over into the other -- a lot of literature and
film have been commissioned to tell tales in this form to make it appear
that this is some sort of necessary result of humanity of as the Xtians are
fond to say "The Will of G_D"! It is merely the product of politicking and
propaganda.
I'm a social radical, this sort of thing is inimical to my cause.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
BTD: It doesn't matter who wrote it or who repeated it only that it
continues after it's long gone obsolete

2005-03-24 23:42:48 UTC

"Blazin' Tommy D." <***@stny.rr.com> wrote in message news:Aqo0e.152436$***@twister.nyroc.rr.com...
Tommy, let me just paste something up on here, tho the images are not going
to show up (I'll give url too). This is what I know about the Big
Picture - it's very synthetically spelled out, but you're smart and I think
can get it. But you need to be "in your body" when reading it, not "in your
head."

quote:
Analysis of Religious and Cultural Changes in History:

Seeing Humans, from Shamanism, to primitive "Wicca," to Polytheism/Paganism,
to Monotheism intertwined with the social and political systems they chose
to adopt and why.
http://www.geocities.com/go_darkness/god-humans-tod.html

Skip theories about before 25 thouand years ago (which are on the site).

The point is, no matter how it happened, about 25 thousand years ago you had
Homo sapiens all over the place and they didn't all look the same. But they
lived pretty much in the same manner.

While these early humans struggled to survive, they related to the forces of
nature in ways that would make sense to them. Things in nature, other living
things, animals, trees, etc., were thought to have a spirit, or manitu, a
kind of consciousness or animating force within them. They saw other animals
as "people too," just different, with their own kinds of culture or ways of
living, e.g., wolf ways, bird ways, etc. This was natural. Things like
forces of nature that were frightening, like thunder storms, or things like
the sun, would more or less be seen as "gods" but not nearly in the way we
mean the word "gods" today. In other words, the sun wasn't like people or
other animals or even like trees. It was always there, up there in the sky,
untouchable. Storms weren't like people or other animals and trees. Storms
came swiftly and subsided, you couldn't touch them either. Earth, air, fire
and water were also not like animals or trees - there was something
different about earth, air, fire and water.

These humans communicated with nature on their own terms, often speaking
through members of their tribe that seemed, for instance, to be better at
predicting rain, or better at finding food or picking a safe settlement, or
better at knowing which herbs to use to heal an injury or alleviate pain, or
better at "communicating" with other animals.

Eventually, these people, who were better at doing these things, were chosen
to be Shamans - they mediated between the people and the environment - the
whole environment. These very early Shamans were females who were hyper
intuitive. The other women gathered food and kept the hearth for the most
part, providing the most food. The males hunted and sometimes caught meat,
and helped to protect the "safe place" from other animals. This was the Age
of Shamanism. These people were either hunter-gatherers or pastoral nomads
that followed the animals around. These people roamed around and never
stayed in one place too long.

Next, perhaps about 10 thousand years ago, give or take (and not all at the
same time), as these early humans discovered some rudimentary agriculture,
which necessitated them staying on one plot of land, the societies changed a
bit. It is our opinion that during this time, these Shaman women became more
established, more adept at using the herbs they constantly saw - and what
they were like would be more akin to what one might call Witches. The
knowledge became a craft, just as knowing how and what to plant became a
craft. Wise Women's Craft. Witchcraft. Women did this work along with other
planting and harvesting, while males still hunted and protected the
home-plot from wild animals. This could be called the Age of Witchcraft and
there was division of labor due to the work each member of the society did.
However, when you change the nature of plants to eat them, they change YOUR
nature. This age didn't last too long. As humans changed the foods they
planted, grew, bred and ate, the plants changed humans - like co-evolution -
it works both ways, one affects the other, which in turn affects the other,
on and on. The question is, why did they continue to do this and not stop?
Perhaps they lost the ability to "reason," which would have told them to
STOP, STOP, STOP! Perhaps they were incapable of stopping due to a real
internal change caused by some parasite or neurovirus. (Discovery August,
2000 "Do parasites rule the world?" and Science News, August 12, 2000, p 109
"Parasite deludes rats into liking cats." "Wasp redesigns web of doomed
spider"). Or, perhaps they couldn't stop due to the next progression that
took place.

As Chart One will show, due to such stationary agrarian living, the numbers
in the group increased dramatically and the people living there needed more
land. Now, other people that are not living that way might be on land that
this stationary group needs. Now the males take on a new role: warriors. It
is during this time, due to this form of living and the need for more land,
that males became active warriors of this type. It is also during this time
that the males took over these societies, more or less, and also took over
some of the duties that only women had in the past, including, in some
cases, the job of being Shaman. Large communities, growing larger by the
decade, formed stable cities. They eventually had nations.

Some trade developed with other similar nations that formed. People living
in these civilizations became blind to the very real but unseen influences
around them (and within them!). They didn't realize that they were ruining
the land, for one thing! Perhaps they didn't even realize they were now
killing other humans - not just animals out to eat them and not just for
hunted food. Their nature changed.

They began to think about superfluous things and moved further away from
nature, and thereby lost their harmony with nature. The knowledge of the
real "psychic forces" around them in nature became diluted and incoherent.
Now, bonafide belief in Gods and literal Spirits and such filled the gaps
created by the loss of natural knowledge. Instead of looking inward for
divinity or strength or inspiration, they looked outward! This could be
called the Age of Pagan Gods or, more precisely, the Age of Polytheism.
There were Big Pagan Gods, big statues of them and people worshiping them as
if they were real and not man-made. What would you think if you saw someone
bowing down and worshiping, praying to, talking to, a telephone pole or a
piece of large rock or a statue? In this sense, this age and kind of
religion was very different from the previous Shamanism or Witchcraft.
Modern people in the Pagan/Wiccan community might object to that definition,
but consider that this definition of a "pagan" (pagan noun; 1. a member of a
group professing a polytheistic religion or any religion other than
Christianity, Judaism, or Islam. [ETYMOLOGY: 14th Century: from Church Latin
paganus, civilian (hence, not a soldier of Christ), from Latin: countryman,
villager, from pagus village] was a label given to these remnants of real
Polytheistic Religions, by the Church. I.e., Zeus or Aphrodite may well have
been a mere "village (pagan) god" at this time, but that is not what Zeus or
Aphrodite used to be.

These large Polytheistic/Pagan nation states eventually became pretty big
empires that dominated other people. They rose and fell. All of these
civilizations forgot the source of these Gods they made up, which were once
based on something concrete. Instead, they deified their metaphors!

Next comes Monotheism, in our opinion, the worst age for humans. This is
where we are now.

(two Charts are on the webpage)

Chart One shows this progression:

1. Stationary settlers, who used to be roaming hunter-gatherers, start
farming on a patch of land.
2. This naturally leads to changes in work that these people did when they
were roaming hunter-gatherers. They adapt to new forms of work and specific
chores. This is more or less a division of labor. At this point, the bounty
of the harvests and hunts are shared equally. But agrarian living is hard
work and leads to overpopulation and the need for more workers to feed more
mouths.
3. Now they are really settled down, they need walls around their area to
protect it, and people with the ability to do that kind of thing. First,
they needed protection from wild animals but, later on, they'd need
protection from people when they need more land and expand. They'd need more
land because the agrarian form of living requires a lot of work and leads
directly to overpopulation and, in turn, a need for more people to work that
land, more mouths to feed.
4. Eventually, you have a nation state and a bonafide warrior class and a
bonafide planting class and so forth.
5. This stage is where there are now caste systems and people vying against
each other for more to eat, more things, better lodgings. Those that are
perceived as being "more important," like warriors, are always given more
and given the best. They are no longer sharing their bounty equally.
Warriors also have the physical ability to take more and keep it.
6. Eventually a Priestly caste supports military practices and serves to
pacify the people.
7. They need more room, and a powerful army can make war and take more and
hold onto what they have. They are the heroes of the society, now. The
people who till the land and make all the food are considered a much lower
caste. Or class.
8. What right do they have to just push other people out and take their
land? Well, they have the might to do it, therefore it is right. That's what
they think, feel and believe. There is no reason for them to believe or
think otherwise.
9. Eventually, you have "Manifest Destiny," which states that you have all
of these things, and can take it from others, because God wills it. After
all, if God did not will it, you'd not be able to do it. It's a circular
argument. Such societies often proclaim that their King is put there by the
will of God.
10. Empires. Imperialism. Finally they get to colonialism, which is a bigger
way to take and exploit from those they have the might to do it to.

Chart Two shows the progression from this point on, the colonialist stage.
This scenario makes up most of recorded history.

1. The incoming settlers take over a country, by any means. They eliminate
or enslave indigenous populations of others. Then, spreading out further
than they used to spread, they run into people that markedly look different.
Now everyone in their own nation, regardless of caste, is considered a
class. The people that look different fall into a caste system with the
conquerors of all classes on the top.
2. Different castes are assigned to different chores. The castes, who look
different, get categorized not just as another caste, but sometimes they are
seen as another race and treated the way you'd treat another species.
"Scientific racism" was born around this time. The oppressed make
everything, but it is the oppressors and those in these oppressor nations
that benefit from it all. Also, mental labor is now valued over all physical
labor. So the thinkers, priests of science or religion, are a higher class
in the society than are the manual laborers and farmers.
3. Now the walls around the protected land are just agreed-upon lines drawn
in dirt, and what they protect are profits.
4. Unequal ownership reigns supreme, but unlike in the past, the ones doing
all the actual work and making most of the things are the ones who actually
have the least.
5. Other ruling nations unite, create things like NATO.
6. Priestly class and ruling class support military efforts and continue to
pacify everyone else, and rouse the military to go fight for them in wars.
7. They need more and more resources. Armies fight in wars for these rulers
and take more resources.
8. Manifest Destiny type thinking is still there. These rulers create
dictatorships in small developing countries not as advanced as theirs. These
dictatorships are disguised with words like "protecting democracy." They
incite racism, nationalism, and conflict.
9. "Might is right" thinking is still there. They protect their profits at
any cost, by any means and demonize any threat by either getting the Priests
to do it for them, or using religious type or rousing inflammatory type talk
in secular language.
10. Socialism in isolation arises when workers, no matter what they look
like or what caste they are in, unite in these oppressed nations. Workers
also unite within these imperialist states.
11. With workers united, socialism tries its hand against these empires and
against imperialism, but workers are bought off. If the nation can exploit
workers far away, in far off places, or exploit people that look so
different, and then placate the workers within the nation that are
considered "the same race," then these workers are easily bought off.

There is a definite, in-built, hard-wired, overall-genetic or ancestral
predisposition for these evolved behaviors, whether these are
hunter-gatherer behaviors that are utterly twisted into something monstrous,
or whether they developed due to interaction with the societies the people
lived in and the work they did to survive. Scientists studying this seem to
focus on "the males" adapting to conditions in society, as if there are no
females or children. It seems as if males were warped the most by all of it.
Males, if anything, respond to the females and what's best for the
offspring, since this is not a case of "survival of the lone hominid or lone
guy," but survival of the GROUP. Without children, there is no future for
the group. These people produced garbage cultures, no matter how "great"
people inside the paradigm think they were, because they didn't produce
"MOSTLY JOY" in life for the majority of people who worked in and lived in
those societies. Look what we have today: massive overpopulation with MAN
threatening to wreck his own entire habitat. Perhaps they can not stop -
perhaps something urges man to destroy himself and his own habitat. What
would benefit from that? Well! Quite a lot of animals would benefit from it!
Dinosaurs perished where once, for millions of years, they ruled the world.
As a direct result of that, primates rose up - including man. Man benefited
from their extinction!

What accounts for religion? How shamanism developed into non-shamanism, we
feel is explained above. But today, in the modern world - what is religion?
Is it extreme repression due to a split in thinking and emotional input,
with the resulting disassociative state becoming insanity when the
repression breaks lose? Perhaps it is Borna virus, a heritable neurovirus?
Or perhaps it is the way things progressed, like a snow ball unable to stop
rolling. How many slaves had to starve, suffer, die to make a tomb for a
crazed Pharaoh? And what for? So he could "rise" from the dead? Wherefrom in
nature would any normal human get the notion that a dead thing could wake up
and walk around again? These are delusions of the insane. They would not get
such irrational ideas from seeing people sleep, as some idiots have
suggested. Primitives and even monkeys would also have seen people (or other
monkeys) "sleeping," and then, not so long after they look asleep, see and
smell them starting to rot. They'd have a clear understanding of death.
They, like any other animal, would come to accept death as a normal part of
life. They'd know that the dead aren't going to get up and walk around
again! THAT is rational! And it is based on pure, empirical observation!

Is there a biological evolutionary explanation for such behavior? The fact
is, other animals are not genetically predisposed to this or that static or
fixed social system at all. They also can not be accused of having priests,
morals, ethics or books with rules in them or written laws! But other
animals do try various social systems - with rules, laws, and ways, "dos and
don'ts;" and these social systems they try out are themselves subject to
natural selection. The fact is, 99% of all species that ever existed have
perished! We are part of 1%, and we've not been here long enough for anyone
to determine if we "survived yet" or not. Other animals also conform to, are
molded by, the work the members do in order to survive in the area they are
in. The strategies that work best in the environmental niche they are in,
are they ones they keep. That goes for humans, too. Those would be the
strategies that become "as-given" or considered "the norm." Hardly anyone
would question the status quo - it would be "the way it is."

Here are three example with other Primates, things that would be called
culture if they were speaking of humans. In fact, some experts do call these
things culture, now that they've learned a lot more. The cultures are handed
down, no different from the way humans do it.

1. Put any primate in an ecological niche where there is scarcity and you'll
end up, guaranteed, with alpha dominant male structure as social strategy
(culture) where they take the most and the best, and where no one can stop
them; you'll get females that do not band together in unity unless they are
close family members; you'll get weaker males and all females being lorded
over or even terrorized by the strongest brutes (whether they wield fist,
club or atomic bomb....). Most ape species have this social strategy,
including many chimps. Sorry to say that this primate idea is the one that
many human males believe is "true, THE truth, the only truth."

2. Put any primate in an ecological niche where there is abundance, but not
of the long-lasting or permanent type, and you'll end up with cliques of all
females dominating the foraging areas and a kind of bartering between males
and females for food/favors. If males try to get out of hand, the females
put a stop to it fast. The females rule. Bonobo chimps have this social
strategy (culture). Note that they are the same species as other chimps,
they are cross-fertile. The Bonobo is genetically the closest to humans but
one doesn't need "knowledge of their genes" to be able to know what an
animal will do if you set up this or that condition in their society.

3. Put any primate in an ecological niche where there is abundance and it
lasts long or is renewable or permanent (whether that be vegetation that
doesn't rot fast, lots and various kinds of eatable fruits, easily hunted
animals to eat, or refrigerators to store TV dinners and easy-access
supermarkets with cheap food and lots of it) and you'll end up with
equalitarian social strategies (at least within each tribe or nation) or a
tendency to want to make that in the society; you'll have no gender-specific
work duties and all-around harmony, or at least a tendency to strive for
that. Some monkeys have this. I know of no ape species that has this. Some
humans have it - I doubt they want to give it up.

No one ever questioned the "as given norms" in the West until the Western
countries got comfortable, had a lot to go around for the people in them and
had a lot of leisure time and joy. Only then did we see "women's rights" and
other such things. But from whom do the women ask for rights? From the men?
Yup. That's who the rulers were, with the power to give them these rights!

The trick is to have a balance of people and resources and never let it get
unbalanced, have enough to go around, and have the kind of stuff that is
always in abundance and easily renewed. Right now, the mega-rich can have
all of this within any society out there - while there is abject starvation
and horror all around them. This is a new kind of hunter-gatherer. They hunt
for resources and riches - and they gather them to themselves; they gather
even way more than they could possibly need, and they wall themselves off
from the rest of the world!

The whole imperialist, theocratic, patriarchal (woman hating, woman
fearing), story of history, since the age of nation state, agrarian-based
patriarchy, is one long stream of horrible occurrences that made life
miserable for most people living in these places. You don't get to hear
about the "most people;" you get to hear about some rulers and their
immediate families. Ultimately, the nation-states needed armies of "the
strongest" to "protect" the rest of the people there, including women and
children, from "the others, out there," and I'm sure the women wanted this
comfort and protection without realizing that armies of strong men doing
such work eventually become bullies that do not go away. They are in the
prime position to demand more than their own share of what used to be shared
equally! They turn against those they were assigned to protect in the first
place. You end up with the military state. That's how it happens, simple as
that. Next, these bullies elect their Ruler, or "God King" as of old, and
this Ruler has his army and his Priests backing him (usually). Altar and
throne! Later on, Altar and Throne in cahoots with the military and
corporations!

ALL of these societies went patriarchal, and the oldest ones of this type,
those formerly long standing and "Great Civilizations," are all now called
the "backward Third World," with the worst anti-woman, outright sadism,
practiced as the norm. One should draw the line when half the people, the
female gender, get tortured and mutilated and even crippled for the sex
pleasures of men - with this practice backed up by Priests holding their
Holy Writs.

For a few million years we were a hunter gathering species that had to work
about three hours a day for ALL our needs. Everyone shared. Obviously, the
instinct to hunt for food is twisted when humans hunt for other humans to
use as slaves to do work for them! But it's a clue: these humans are getting
out of the drudgery and stress of work they were never evolved to do. Since
money is the means to survival now, we hunt for ways to get it and gather it
to save it. We seldom care how we get it! You might balk at that statement.
You might have a nice, honest job, say, at McDonald's. Yes, getting paid to
help sell super high cholesterol foods to children when there is a
nation-wide health problem with this. Working at a nice honest job with a
computer, parts made of plastic, a petroleum product. (Yes, this is typed on
a computer, and yes, fossil fuels are being burned to keep the electricity
needed to run it and internet). There is no way around it - no one cares how
they get the money.

Experts need to take biological evolution, genetics, including epigenetics
and norms of reaction, (these are not genetic but seem like they are) and
merge that with neurology (see Antonio Damasio especially: "Descartes'
Error") and merge that with neurovirology and parasitology, intrauterine
environment (embryology), metabolism (i.e., the ENTIRE environment in a big
sense) and then merge that with the above. In other words, they need to
understand, from way back, the public health and environmental disaster (not
advance, DISASTER) that agricultural living brought on; they need to grasp
the back-breaking and even crippling work people had to endure (there is
forensic proof of all of this), they need to grasp the overpopulation way
out of balance with resources that happened, even back then, and come to the
RIGHT conclusion.

For one thing, the dogmatic types of woman-hating patriarchy and religion we
have had since then is not a normal thing at all. Someone needs to
understand what some "esoteric" doctrines have been saying - which is
spelled out in Wilhelm Reich's works - and merge that with Antonio Damasio's
work. It seems that E. O. Wilson, an expert entomologist and now a
sociobiologist, is suggesting this too. He has done a lot of it already or
at least hinted at some of it in a book, "Conciliance," - BUT - Wilson has
failed to mention the public health disaster brought on by agrarian life; he
has failed to reason what humans would become and what they'd "think up"
when they felt pain all day long from back-breaking agrarian work, when
their lives became constant drudgery; or what some of those people would do
to get out of the drudgery - at the expense of all others. E.O. Wilson has
failed to reason what bottled up instinct can do, or what upbringing
designed to bury instinct and condition the child to ignore the 5 senses,
sensual impacts, somatic markers can do. Wilson has failed to conclude that
such a human is NOT CAPABLE of logic - but neurologists could explain it to
him - Damasio has already explained it: they are anosognosic - alexithymic.
Wilson has failed to factor in the fact that we are DOOMING ourselves and
there is NOTHING "animal" about this - nothing "normal" about it - it's
insane. Humans are SUPPOSED TO have logic and the ability to STOP DOING such
things to themselves and each other. Do they have logic? Can they stop? They
have not stopped since that first agrarian nation state!

Ask how the Third World BECAME the Third World. Through imperial empires
that became simultaneously more patriarchal, more anti-woman and theocratic,
with a closed-unit kind of theocratic self-help rule, at first with an army
(male warriors) to defend the realm.

To understand all of this, to really understand it without blaming this or
that group, takes long thinking and understanding of a large and conflicting
group of conditions and a multifaceted situation; it takes a lot to figure
out how the world got so messed up. You can't start from the industrial
revolution onwards. You have to go to the root of the mess. Theories aren't
going to solve it nor are political ideas, which merely predict or legislate
behavior. Our remote ancestors, prior to agriculture, had no cops and no
jails. They had behaviors or, to be exact: workable social strategies. The
problem is that humans, being human, see immediate problems that are in
their faces. They don't see or FEEL for the long term problems at all, even
if they understand them cerebrally. They react and DO, based on what they
FEEL. Any foresight humans have is solely based on their old strategies, for
hoarding things they know they'll need, storing it for future use, and so
forth. These are still totally up front, in-the face, immediate and slightly
long-term strategies. They are never grandiose, despite some egg-heads
speaking words to the contrary.

Take the current political feeling on the rise (2001, USA). Right-wing
republican methods, like similar methods used long ago by others, are simple
but IMMEDIATE solutions to problems they see and FEEL plaguing them RIGHT
NOW; the problem is that they utterly lack real foresight, they have simple,
immediate "long-term" ideas. But then, that's human. They want simple jobs,
for example. They manage to see foreign speaking people taking the jobs.
They don't care if Big Companies bring them here as slave-wage workers;
that's too abstract and they can't see an immediate way to stop Big
Companies from doing this, and Big Company is just a building. They fail to
see this especially if these American companies aren't IN the USA. They see
these people, and these people WILL NOT learn English and more, they are
making demands these days about language. This makes the right-wing
Republicans grow in numbers daily and it also ticks off other, formerly
liberal ethnics who DID learn English and who did NOT get "free English
classes," or classes taught to them in their native languages at the
taxpayer's expense. This is what they see and, more immediately and
importantly, what they FEEL: "He takes the jobs from me and also wants me to
speak his language?" They see crime, black inner cities, black-on-white
terror and bullying, percentages of which group is in jail, and their
solution is to build more jails and lock more up - throw out the key. They
are reacting to a situation that is NOW, right NOW. What happens when
taxpaying workers don't want to pay for prison inmate upkeep anymore? The
prisoners will find Big Companies building plants near the jails - where
they'll "work" for their upkeep. That's slavery all over again. That, plus
people out of jail no longer have the right to vote in elections! These
right wingers see gays as a poison in society (despite the lack of gay crime
and abundance of hard working gays who pay large chunks of taxes). They FEEL
that what gays do is sick. They don't care about hormonal influences in the
uterus. That's cerebral knowledge for doctors. They know what they FEEL.
Right now, they have leaders speaking to them about what they feel! They see
non-Christians as anti-Christ and they know what their Holy Book says about
them. That's it. They can be seen with happy, smiling faces in their
churches, where they feel camaraderie, security, and safety. No use arguing
with them! It's a waste of time. Oh, you might get them to SAY that they are
more open-minded about all of this stuff, or spew out the usual Politically
Correct line on it, but what do they DO? What they DO is real.

On the other hand, some other more permanent solution could be arrived at,
which eliminates the "ones on their shit list, 'THOSE OTHERS' that they just
want gone" altogether and "solves the overpopulation problem" at the same
time. It would be presented as "moral" to the American dupes. The seriously
ignorant that want only their contentment (and do not want to have to do all
that thinking about this stuff), the ones that need and want a "head to
think for them," might even believe that this new solution is Biblical
prophecy. The solution? Genocide. Most readers by now, right now, are
shaking their heads, "oh no, no never." And that is where YOU stop thinking
about this possibility, despite the history lessons! Do you know how EASY it
is to GET humans to go and do such a thing? Well, of course no one would
call it "genocide." They'd package it as something else. Don't they always?
Ethnic cleansing? No, they'd not use that one. How about MORAL cleansing?
That sounds peachy, right? Better - GOD's laws! "We can no longer tolerate
the damned, the sinners." ?? Understand something, we might be using words
like ignorant and dupes for these people - but no, make no mistake about
it - they are HUMAN. Very typically human!

We already have, hard-wired into our GENES, the tribal instinct - and it IS
a bonafide instinct! It's not just a tribal thing - it's also an instinct
toward conformity and order. The only thing stopping this from happening
faster is some moral injunction that halts what people feel, the "civilized
veneer" that can vanish in a second - just let the going get REALLY tough
and see. This bracing and pausing to "feel guilty about such thoughts" -
pents people up if conditions in society exist that stress people out
enough. Eventually, pent-up dams break. If you don't believe this, then you
are a pipe-dreaming, wishful thinker living in fantasyland, who knows
NOTHING of human nature (or RECENT HISTORY). How could the most civilized
country, the country of Beethoven, Marx and Hegel, fall for "nice moral
reasons" to do what they did? Easy. Really easy! The Left has never really
dealt with this reality. It's too spooky for some folks. It doesn't matter
what big fancy and complex "economic reasons" existed. On the gut level,
people FELT what they felt - and they acted on it without knowing or caring
about the complexities of economic theories. They weren't evil or even
oddballs. They were - HUMAN. They were very ordinary!

Humans were evolved to respond to a situation or threat, perceived or real,
IMMEDIATELY, and history shows they do it in a predictable way: they get the
strongest men to be their warriors, they get the warriors to hunt and kill
or exile "the others" and then, if they succeed in doing this and holding
their own for a good length of time, they end up with a patriarchy with
repressive laws and anti-female theocracies to back up the men. If this
happened in the USA, the USA would be on the sure road to being just one
more Third World country. After all, those male warriors "fought and died"
FOR the women and their children. That's how the men see this or, more
importantly, it's how the men FEEL about it! Then, this would still be just
one more Third World patriarchal hell-hole - with defacto gender war.

What one must grasp is this, and religion definitely ties into it, even if
the religion sounds like "science": MOST human beings can't think and/or
will not bother or desire to think about non-immediate "causes" of things
that distress them - either in history or in far off places where they can't
directly see these things, where they didn't somatically experience these
things first hand. When their emotions get in a boil against an IMMEDIATE
THING that they can concretely see, especially if the flames are fanned,
they react to that immediate cause of their distress. All it takes is for
the religious leaders to go along with it, present some "prediction" or
"prophecy" to fan the flames. Anything, or anyone that can solve the
problem, relieve the stress, fix it so that they are once again, safe and
comfortable and happy, is who they are for. These are, however, the kinds of
strategies that enabled hominids to evolve and become modern man! These
strategies WORK. They aren't abnormal, or inferior. They are entirely human.
We have heard other egg heads out there questioning why people are
religious, or why they can't think. Well, we are also egg heads and we know
the answers to that question! If anyone wants to deal with this, for real,
they'll have to fully understand Human Nature.

Sure, everyone knows that this "mess" goes on because the modern First World
has been exploiting (and still is exploiting) the hell out of that Third
World "out there, over there"! But people tend to get selective amnesia
about such technicalities. Sure they do - those technicalities are far away,
in the past, not immediate or in their faces! They tune that statement out
and override it with their "might makes right" rhetoric, or what might even
become, "We are Good battling Evil" rhetoric. They are also unable to see
that these now large groups of dissatisfied ethnics, having been exploited,
are becoming a might. Some of their Third World countries even have nuclear
bombs now. Doesn't their might make right, too? Guess no one thought of
that. Nope. "THEY are Evil. We are Good!" We think people will eventually
start hearing that kind of talk in mainline religion, maybe even in
politics! Then again, perhaps we are being paranoid. But I don't think it's
paranoid. I expect it!

Referring again to the 2 charts (synopsis above)...
The stage we are at today would require a new chart! This is the age of
Transnational and Multinational corporations, where entire corporations have
the rights of individuals in the ruling nations, but in fact have more power
than any single person could have. They have the power to pay off Presidents
of countries! These corporations do not have to abide by the same
restrictions that individuals abide by anymore. They leave the nation, they
go abroad where exploited nations were, or where nations not as developed
and advanced are, and they hire these others to work as cheap labor. But
this time it's different. It's no longer exploitation or slavery. The low
wages these others get paid amounts to a lot of money within the nations
they live! It's not like the past where they were being exploited or
enslaved at all. They are more than happy to work for these wages - very
high to them, but unlivable to anyone within the nation. Corporations also
promote people from these nations coming into the ruling nation to do "jobs
no one in the nation wants to do," oddly enough, it's mostly agricultural
work! All of this is at the expense of the worker in the ruling nation, who
is made obsolete. The worker no longer has to be bought off. He can hold a
labor strike, but even that won't work anymore because the company can
simply move out. He can now be ignored.

This is the New World Order, the Global Plantation. This is, in fact, man at
his worst - but no one living within the ruling nation that has comfort and
a content life is going to actually DO anything except write about it and
let others read it. After all, poor people in undeveloped countries or even
in the nation, do not own computers! I am typing this on a computer with
internet access! What's going to break this trend and stop the snowball from
rolling even further? Fossil fuels running out will force things to change.

Wouldn't it be nice if the Earth had Gene Roddenberry's dream of a Star Trek
society as he conceived of the Earth, people living on the Earth, in that
time period? An ideal society, a true paradise on earth. Wouldn't it be nice
(to break this down to the naked reality), if humans eating and
overpopulating out of balance and making human waste didn't cause such
strife and trouble? Wouldn't it be great to have a non fossil fuel energy
source? Humans will have that pretty soon, we'll have to. Fossil fuels won't
last too much longer! Wouldn't it be nice to have another source for food
that doesn't erode the land?

It would be very nice; but society as it is now would have to be turned back
RIGHT-SIDE UP; the "house" has been upside-down for far too long. We can't
go back to primitive living - what would we do without computers and TV and
modern appliances? :-O Many modern-day Pagans, Wiccans and other alternate
non-monotheistic types have this idea in mind - but they are not united,
their Wills are not focused. How many Wiccans or Pagans ever heard of the
Ballard fuel cell? The Leftist idea of "workers of the world uniting" has
been made into a pipe dream, since 3rd world workers have no reason to unite
with workers in the 1st World anymore. Then again, perhaps we can't make
this a reality with things the way they presently are, with humans being the
way they are now. Keep in mind, in the Star Trek series, before humans got
true wisdom and fixed the world to make it nice, a real paradise, there was
a world war that wiped out about 90% of the human race.

Science may well be the new Shamanism, if we get to have a future. Imagine
it - people on the street saying, "That's because of Electrons!" Or, "That's
Photons!" Those are names for some of the forces underlying Nature!
Unquote.

Now you know what I know and see - and imo, it's just TOO obvious.

Blazin' Tommy D.

2005-03-25 12:39:33 UTC

Post by Tani Jantsang Â©
Tommy, let me just paste something up on here, tho the images are not going
to show up (I'll give url too). This is what I know about the Big
Picture - it's very synthetically spelled out, but you're smart and I think
can get it. But you need to be "in your body" when reading it, not "in your
head."
Seeing Humans, from Shamanism, to primitive "Wicca," to

Polytheism/Paganism,

Post by Tani Jantsang Â©
to Monotheism intertwined with the social and political systems they chose
to adopt and why.
http://www.geocities.com/go_darkness/god-humans-tod.html
Skip theories about before 25 thouand years ago (which are on the site).
The point is, no matter how it happened, about 25 thousand years ago

1 -- [clip]

2 -- [clip]

Post by Tani Jantsang Â©
7. They need more room, and a powerful army can make war and take more and
hold onto what they have. They are the heroes of the society, now. The
people who till the land and make all the food are considered a much lower
caste. Or class.

3 -- [clip]

Post by Tani Jantsang Â©
"Scientific racism" was born around this time. The oppressed make
everything, but it is the oppressors and those in these oppressor nations
that benefit from it all. Also, mental labor is now valued over all physical
labor. So the thinkers, priests of science or religion, are a higher class
in the society than are the manual laborers and farmers.
3. Now the walls around the protected land are just agreed-upon lines drawn
in dirt, and what they protect are profits.

4 -- [clip]

Post by Tani Jantsang Â©
There is a definite, in-built, hard-wired, overall-genetic or ancestral
predisposition for these evolved behaviors, whether these are
hunter-gatherer behaviors that are utterly twisted into something monstrous,
or whether they developed due to interaction with the societies the people
lived in and the work they did to survive. Scientists studying this seem to
focus on "the males" adapting to conditions in society, as if there are no
females or children. It seems as if males were warped the most by all of it.
Males, if anything, respond to the females and what's best for the
offspring, since this is not a case of "survival of the lone hominid or lone
guy," but survival of the GROUP. Without children, there is no future for
the group. These people produced garbage cultures, no matter how "great"
people inside the paradigm think they were, because they didn't produce
"MOSTLY JOY" in life for the majority of people who worked in and lived in
those societies.

5 -- [clip]

Post by Tani Jantsang Â©
To understand all of this, to really understand it without blaming this or
that group, takes long thinking and understanding of a large and conflicting
group of conditions and a multifaceted situation; it takes a lot to figure
out how the world got so messed up. You can't start from the industrial
revolution onwards. You have to go to the root of the mess. Theories aren't
going to solve it nor are political ideas, which merely predict or legislate
behavior. Our remote ancestors, prior to agriculture, had no cops and no
jails. They had behaviors or, to be exact: workable social strategies. The
problem is that humans, being human, see immediate problems that are in
their faces. They don't see or FEEL for the long term problems at all, even
if they understand them cerebrally. They react and DO, based on what they
FEEL. Any foresight humans have is solely based on their old strategies, for
hoarding things they know they'll need, storing it for future use, and so
forth. These are still totally up front, in-the face, immediate and slightly
long-term strategies. They are never grandiose, despite some egg-heads
speaking words to the contrary.

6 -- [clip]

Post by Tani Jantsang Â©
We already have, hard-wired into our GENES, the tribal instinct - and it IS
a bonafide instinct! It's not just a tribal thing - it's also an instinct
toward conformity and order. The only thing stopping this from happening
faster is some moral injunction that halts what people feel, the "civilized
veneer" that can vanish in a second - just let the going get REALLY tough
and see. This bracing and pausing to "feel guilty about such thoughts" -
pents people up if conditions in society exist that stress people out
enough. Eventually, pent-up dams break. If you don't believe this, then you
are a pipe-dreaming, wishful thinker living in fantasyland, who knows
NOTHING of human nature (or RECENT HISTORY). How could the most civilized
country, the country of Beethoven, Marx and Hegel, fall for "nice moral
reasons" to do what they did? Easy. Really easy! The Left has never really
dealt with this reality. It's too spooky for some folks. It doesn't matter
what big fancy and complex "economic reasons" existed. On the gut level,
people FELT what they felt - and they acted on it without knowing or caring
about the complexities of economic theories. They weren't evil or even
oddballs. They were - HUMAN. They were very ordinary!

7 -- [clip]

Post by Tani Jantsang Â©
Referring again to the 2 charts (synopsis above)...
The stage we are at today would require a new chart! This is the age of
Transnational and Multinational corporations, where entire corporations have
the rights of individuals in the ruling nations, but in fact have more power
than any single person could have. They have the power to pay off Presidents
of countries! These corporations do not have to abide by the same
restrictions that individuals abide by anymore. They leave the nation, they
go abroad where exploited nations were, or where nations not as developed
and advanced are, and they hire these others to work as cheap labor. But
this time it's different. It's no longer exploitation or slavery. The low
wages these others get paid amounts to a lot of money within the nations
they live! It's not like the past where they were being exploited or
enslaved at all. They are more than happy to work for these wages - very
high to them, but unlivable to anyone within the nation. Corporations also
promote people from these nations coming into the ruling nation to do "jobs
no one in the nation wants to do," oddly enough, it's mostly agricultural
work! All of this is at the expense of the worker in the ruling nation, who
is made obsolete. The worker no longer has to be bought off. He can hold a
labor strike, but even that won't work anymore because the company can
simply move out. He can now be ignored.
This is the New World Order, the Global Plantation. This is, in fact, man at
his worst - but no one living within the ruling nation that has comfort and
a content life is going to actually DO anything except write about it and
let others read it. After all, poor people in undeveloped countries or even
in the nation, do not own computers! I am typing this on a computer with
internet access! What's going to break this trend and stop the snowball from
rolling even further? Fossil fuels running out will force things to change.

8 -- [clip]

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
BTD: You're inside the box, Tani.

I numbered the pertinent parts of your text as appears above.

Essentially all of the things you're complaining about are the result of
majority rule being placed in a preferred position over the rule of law by
majority rule proponents. See my other post of this date in response to your
other post.

Almost all of your premises come directly from Haushofer and his
Geopolitiks -- i.e., justification for German territorial aggrandizement in
those time periods referred to as WWI and WWII

None of these things are biological, Nazis said they were in order to make
it appear that this was some sort of extension of natural law. This was
their Teutonic, Livonian Knight, Aryan Heritage, &c

Now into the reign of George Bush, since the election of Jimmy Cracker, the
Monolith have the numbers and rule by majority rule. They succeed because of
the ignorance people now have regarding the rule of law. Even before
Cracker, what did the Democratics do to educate the populace? A very small
number from the New England states and a few elsewhere tried and were
practically run out of government by the Crackers.

Everyone that supports the Mussolini Million Man March system necessarily
supports majority rule. Like John Kerry bows to Bush as the better man (may
the best man win) because he came away with 130,000 more people voting for
him (whether real or otherwise) and therefore may now use his majority to
enact legislation that was never authorized by the people. How? Because the
sacred opposition lets him. I don't.

I really wish you folks would stop blaming G_d and Judaism.

2005-03-29 01:15:15 UTC

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
BTD: You're inside the box, Tani.

Nope, I just simply stated what is - and it IS because of the reasons I
elaborated on, albeit in a crunched manner.

Post by Blazin' Tommy D.
I numbered the pertinent parts of your text as appears above.
Essentially all of the things you're complaining about are the result of
majority rule being placed in a preferred position over the rule of law by
majority rule proponents. See my other post of this date in response to your
other post.

Then you don't seem to quite "catch on" as to WHY majority rule manages to
get placed over rule of law - not long after rule of law is established.
Reread it - SLOWLY. There is no box or outside box to it. I'm saying that
2 plus 2 is four. PERIOD.

Post by Blazin' Tommy D.
Almost all of your premises come directly from Haushofer and his
Geopolitiks -- i.e., justification for German territorial aggrandizement in
those time periods referred to as WWI and WWII

No, my statements of facts about HISTORY up until now come from pure
observation. I never heard of Haushofer. Aside from which, no professor
that ever saw that article said ANYONE ELSE ever wrote that exact analysis
of society and religion and how things come to be as they are. NONE. So
you're wrong.

Post by Blazin' Tommy D.
None of these things are biological, Nazis said they were in order to make
it appear that this was some sort of extension of natural law. This was
their Teutonic, Livonian Knight, Aryan Heritage, &c

Rubbish. I listed how primates of non-human type act depending on their
ENVIRONMENT. They are as biological as the fact that WE TOO are primates.
Stop bringing up Nazi shit. I don't give a shit about them either.

Post by Blazin' Tommy D.
Now into the reign of George Bush, since the election of Jimmy Cracker, the
Monolith have the numbers and rule by majority rule.

Do you actually believe that if ANYONE ELSE got elected instead of Bush,
that ANYTHING would change? If you do - you are naive.

They succeed because of

Post by Blazin' Tommy D.
the ignorance people now have regarding the rule of law.

No, they succeed due to numbers. When rule of law was invented long ago by
a few people - that was another time, another era. Those ruling and those
with rights were only a select few, too. This is no longer the case.
Quantity itself, has changed quality.

Even before

Post by Blazin' Tommy D.
Cracker, what did the Democratics do to educate the populace? A very small
number from the New England states and a few elsewhere tried and were
practically run out of government by the Crackers.
Everyone that supports the Mussolini Million Man March system necessarily
supports majority rule. Like John Kerry bows to Bush as the better man (may
the best man win) because he came away with 130,000 more people voting for
him (whether real or otherwise) and therefore may now use his majority to
enact legislation that was never authorized by the people. How? Because the
sacred opposition lets him. I don't.
I really wish you folks would stop blaming G_d and Judaism.

What are y ou ranting about here? Where have I blamed God or Judaism for a
single thing? I wrote what I wrote - and that IS an analysis of "WHAT IS."
It's due to AGRIARIAN LIVING that this shit happened - the seed started
right the and there - LONG ago.

Blazin' Tommy D.

2005-03-29 12:54:06 UTC

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
BTD: You're inside the box, Tani.

Nope, I just simply stated what is - and it IS because of the reasons I
elaborated on, albeit in a crunched manner.

Post by Blazin' Tommy D.
Now into the reign of George Bush, since the election of Jimmy Cracker, the
Monolith have the numbers and rule by majority rule.

Do you actually believe that if ANYONE ELSE got elected instead of Bush,
that ANYTHING would change? If you do - you are naive.
They succeed because of

Post by Blazin' Tommy D.
the ignorance people now have regarding the rule of law.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
BTD: (alt.magick). Read.

2005-03-29 23:49:14 UTC

Post by Tani Jantsang Â©
It's due to AGRIARIAN LIVING that this shit happened - the seed started
right the and there - LONG ago.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
BTD: (alt.magick). Read.

When humans find a new way to make energy and food - things WILL change.
Aside from doing that, nothing IS going to change. Figure it out. In which
case, until that happens, you can either find ways to get into the system or
around the system - or be forever on the system's shit list and woe is
meeing all over the place - making really paranoid statements. There is no
way in hell you lost a driver's license due to sex perferences or religion.
No way. Fact is, no one would even KNOW your sex preferences or religion if
you didn't TELL them. It's nobody's business. I never asked you about it.
I don't want to know or care to know. I agree with you on satan poos. SR
is not satanic, as far as I'm concerned. It's eastern stuff. The FAQ
explains it all very clearly! It's written TO that audience, which consists
of 90% morons; just in case 10% of the non-morons want to know something
about darkness and inner flame. That's all.

Point in fact, using YOUR definition of Satan (the spook of all ages) -
everything is everything else's satan since you can find something that
opposes something else. Moot point. Trivial point. Nothing deep at all.
It's stupid, imo.

Blazin' Tommy D.

2005-03-30 10:58:00 UTC

Post by Tani Jantsang Â©
It's due to AGRIARIAN LIVING that this shit happened - the seed started
right the and there - LONG ago.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
BTD: (alt.magick). Read.

When humans find a new way to make energy and food - things WILL change.
Aside from doing that, nothing IS going to change. Figure it out. In which
case, until that happens, you can either find ways to get into the system or
around the system - or be forever on the system's shit list and woe is
meeing all over the place - making really paranoid statements. There is no
way in hell you lost a driver's license due to sex perferences or religion.
No way. Fact is, no one would even KNOW your sex preferences or religion if
you didn't TELL them. It's nobody's business. I never asked you about it.
I don't want to know or care to know. I agree with you on satan poos. SR
is not satanic, as far as I'm concerned. It's eastern stuff. The FAQ
explains it all very clearly! It's written TO that audience, which consists
of 90% morons; just in case 10% of the non-morons want to know something
about darkness and inner flame. That's all.
Point in fact, using YOUR definition of Satan (the spook of all ages) -
everything is everything else's satan since you can find something that
opposes something else. Moot point. Trivial point. Nothing deep at all.
It's stupid, imo.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
BTD: (alt.magick) Your ideas regarding living space is the basis of
Geopoliticks. LaVey dedicated one of his books to the person who refined
those ideas in modern times - i.e., General Haushofer. So yes it makes sense
that you are a Pukanan follower.

There is obviously no sense in attempting to have any discussion with you,
because when you don't understand something which is almost always instead
of asking and thus learning something you clearly don't you you pretend like
you do know and end up wasting everyone's time. Which I don't have time for.

It's also pointless to me to ask you however kindly to not misrepresent what
I've written. I'm quite saddened that you accuse me of painting the idea of
Satan as "a spook". In fact I hate you for it.

If you want to make an enemy for the rest of your life, keep it up, although
I can't promise that you'll garner much enjoyment from it since I've already
devoted it to someone else.

Goodbye.

2005-03-30 23:28:03 UTC

Post by SOD of the CoE

Post by Tani Jantsang Â©
It's due to AGRIARIAN LIVING that this shit happened - the seed started
right the and there - LONG ago.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
BTD: (alt.magick). Read.

When humans find a new way to make energy and food - things WILL change.
Aside from doing that, nothing IS going to change. Figure it out. In

which

Post by Tani Jantsang Â©
around the system - or be forever on the system's shit list and woe is
meeing all over the place - making really paranoid statements. There is

religion.

it.

Post by Tani Jantsang Â©
I don't want to know or care to know. I agree with you on satan poos.
SR
is not satanic, as far as I'm concerned. It's eastern stuff. The FAQ
explains it all very clearly! It's written TO that audience, which

consists

Post by Tani Jantsang Â©
of 90% morons; just in case 10% of the non-morons want to know something
about darkness and inner flame. That's all.
Point in fact, using YOUR definition of Satan (the spook of all ages) -
everything is everything else's satan since you can find something that
opposes something else. Moot point. Trivial point. Nothing deep at all.
It's stupid, imo.

Let me see if I can set you straight on a few things. I have no freaking
idea who most of what LaVey was into wrote or said or thought. I never
cared - and I do not care now. MY essay on social and religious develop is
mine - and NO ONE ELSE ever said it that way, analysed it that way which is
based SOLELY on the WORK people do. Not even Marx did that. What I said is
HISTORICALLY correct - you can not find proof otherwise. What happened,
happened - and it happened due to a DYNAMIC involving division of labor at
first. The rest historically followed from there - and it just kept
repeating.

Buchannan was not in favor of eliminating many people due to overpopulation
at all. I AM - it needs to be done - and it will BE done when push comes to
shove. Those able to do it, WILL do it. Want to bet money? I probably
won't be alive when push comes to shove. Therefore, I don't care about it.
I DO care about people coming into my country and RUINING the quality of
life. That's up close and personal.

Buchannan was against abortion. I, on the other hand, would rather pay to
abort the unwanted than pay for 18 years of their care. Again, personal -
what's done with MY tax dollars. I'm also against keeping those hopelessly
messed up premies alive.

Post by SOD of the CoE
There is obviously no sense in attempting to have any discussion with you,

You are not having a discussion. You are PREACHING to me and I'm not buying
it. YOUR agenda is not mine. YOUR problems are not mine. Rule of law
inevitably becomes majority rule. How the hell do you think that happens
every single time? WHERE do we see rule of law? Country? Among some tiny
group of the elite, sure.

Post by SOD of the CoE
because when you don't understand something which is almost always instead
of asking and thus learning something you clearly don't you you pretend like
you do know and end up wasting everyone's time. Which I don't have time for.

I understand you clearly. You apparently do NOT understand a word I said in
MY essay - which is NOT like any other essay written on the subject. You
instead resort to equating it with someone I never even heard of - and
dragging fucking Anton into the conversation. What the fuck is that?
Geopolitics, a big picture, didn't even exist back when the first agrarian
state did what it did - and that HAPPENES, historically it happened, and
it's true. Nowhere in my essay do I say it's right or wrong. I DO say
that's it's huma nature IN CERTAIN CONDITIONS. I say that because it
obviously is - it's what humans have done, repeatedly and consistently in
history. Maybe you don't want that to be true.

Post by SOD of the CoE
It's also pointless to me to ask you however kindly to not misrepresent what
I've written. I'm quite saddened that you accuse me of painting the idea of
Satan as "a spook". In fact I hate you for it.

Imo, Satan is a spook. No one needs that to be a rebel, or against the
system. When you or anyone else says "Satan" in that way, I hear it not
much different from how I hear "Santa Claus."

Post by SOD of the CoE
If you want to make an enemy for the rest of your life, keep it up, although
I can't promise that you'll garner much enjoyment from it since I've already
devoted it to someone else.

You get way too easily offended, imo. And making an enemy on usenet over
the use of a word is about as kiddie as it can get.

Post by SOD of the CoE
Goodbye.

Dagon Productions

2005-03-31 03:02:16 UTC

Post by Blazin' Tommy D.
If you want to make an enemy for the rest of your life, keep it up, although
I can't promise that you'll garner much enjoyment from it since I've already
devoted it to someone else.

You get way too easily offended, imo. And making an enemy on usenet over
the use of a word is about as kiddie as it can get.

Post by Blazin' Tommy D.
Goodbye.

Hahaahahah... you should take your own advice dumbass.

-Douglas

--
**********************************************
Dagon Productions
Chaos Magick & Occult books
http://www.dagonproductions.com
***@dagonproductions.com

SOD of the CoE

2005-03-12 08:56:31 UTC